Latest OT Change -ROTJ (Spoilers)

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-05-21 09:54am

As far as the SEs are concerned, I look at it this way:

ANH: Most of Mos Eisely wasn't improved at all, and in several cases, screwed up. On the other hand, the fact that the fighters in the last battle no longer move about as fast as city buses and don't have matte lines or boxes around them IS a big improvement. Slight improvement overall.

TESB: Improved. On the debit side are Luke's howl as he falls on Cloud City and Vader's shuttle being intercut with the last chase. On the plus side, we have the windows on Cloud City being "opened" like the production artwork, a better shot of Slave 1 stalking the Falcon and restoration of the score that was chopped up. The best part was when Leia, Chewie and Lando reach the platform, but are too late to stop Boba Fett from flying off with Han's coffin. In the old version, the music just stops ("duh-duh-daaah"), but in the SE, a tearjerker version of the Han & Leia theme is played (as it was heard on the soundtrack album). HUGE improvement.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-05-21 10:02am

Just another OT purist who thinks he knows Star Wars better than Lucas.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-05-21 10:02am

Galvatron wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The burden of proof is on you to prove that having Luke and Leia as siblings was a cop-out, rather than something they planned since ESB.
"...the ending was the coronation of Leia as the queen of what was left of her people, to take over the royal symbol. That meant she was then isolated from all of the rest and Luke went off then by himself. It was basically a kind of bittersweet ending. She's not his sister that dropped in to wrap up everything neatly. His sister was someone else way over on the other side of the galaxy and she wasn't going to show up until the next episode."

-Gary Kurtz on the original direction planned for ROTJ

I personally don't trust Kurtz on what he says was the original direction for the sequels, primarily because they so contradict what Lucas and others have said in the past.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2004-05-21 10:24am

Elfdart wrote:If Luke & Leia were meant to be siblings, why would Lucas have them swapping spit in TESB? Especially when you consider that these movies are made for pre-adolescents.

I think it's better to not have very colorful characters (PT) in the first place than to take great characters like Han Solo and turn then into clowns (ROTJ).

did you miss the part when Luke flys off to rescue han and leila?

Kenobi : - "That boy is our last hope"

Yoda : - "No, there is another"

and then lukes communication with leia through the force... it was planned from ESB

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-05-21 10:57am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I personally don't trust Kurtz on what he says was the original direction for the sequels, primarily because they so contradict what Lucas and others have said in the past.

Lucas has stretched his credibility razor thin with me. His revisionism and self-contradictions have driven me to doubt anything he says nowadays.

To me, Gary Kurtz is like the Richard Clarke of Lucasfilm.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-05-21 10:59am

Personally I can't stand whiney OT purists, who start to see the end of "thier" SW every time a rumor is heared.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-05-21 11:22am

I don't think they will completely insert Hayden instead of Shaw. That said, I can see them taking Hayden's face and Shaw's and doing the "age merging" thing they did with Jake Lloyd and Hayden to get the "Anakin at different ages" thing for the young adults series to get an older looking anakin who looks like his younger self.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-05-21 11:28am

Ender wrote:I don't think they will completely insert Hayden instead of Shaw. That said, I can see them taking Hayden's face and Shaw's and doing the "age merging" thing they did with Jake Lloyd and Hayden to get the "Anakin at different ages" thing for the young adults series to get an older looking anakin who looks like his younger self.

Maybe he'll do the same thing with Obi-Wan and "age merge" Ewan McGregor's face with Alec Guiness's. That'd be kewl!

Will the benefits of CG revisionism never cease?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-05-21 04:13pm

I don't doubt that all along Leia was intended to be the other that Yoda mentioned. Did she have to be his sister? I don't think so. But that's the way Lucas went and it's one of several reasons I think ROTJ was the weakest movie so far.

Gary Kurt, the Richard Clarke of Lucasfilm? He's more the Pete Best of Lucasfilm.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-05-24 04:56pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Dooey Jo wrote:Come on! GL can't be that stupid!

Luke would be thinking something like: "Oh there's Ben, and Yoda! And... who the FUCK is that?!". If they're going to put Hayden's face there instead of Sebastian Shaw's, they have to change Luke's expression to be more like: . He knew Darth Vader was his father, he saw what he looked like under his mask. He did NOT know how he looked fucking 20 years ago! He couldn't possibly know that guy beside Yoda was supposed to be his father!

The only way to fix it would be to... replace Shaw's face with Hayden's in the Death Star scene too!! Nooooo! This can't be true!!!
And for this I say again I am glad for the Laser Discs DVDs I made.

Can you tell me where I might order or how I might make (for myself) such a bootleg item?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-05-24 05:00pm

It's not really a bootleg item.

You buy the laserdiscs, which are expensive now I think, and transfer it to DVDs.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-05-24 05:49pm

neoolong wrote:It's not really a bootleg item.

You buy the laserdiscs, which are expensive now I think, and transfer it to DVDs.

Anybody out there got some laserdiscs of the OT and want to make me a non-bootleg?

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-05-26 11:25pm

Am I alone in thinking the problem is not so much that Lucas is screwing with the original Star Wars movies as much as that he no longer acknowledges the originals' existence? Wouldn't a simple, profitable solution for Lucas be simply to release the original theatrical versions of the movies on DVD? Personally, I wouldn't care what he does to them or what he calls them after that, if he simply acknowledged that the original versions are the movies that got him where he is now. After that, he can do what he wants to them for the rest of his life, and it doesn't matter because people will have a choice.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-05-27 02:18am

No, the problem is Lucas' attitude.

Star Wars belongs to Lucas. His vision is the definitive one. Ignore all else. End of story.

That's why you're not going to see the original versions ever again.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-05-27 03:28pm

I do agree about Lucas' attitude toward the original versions of his movies. I can deal with it, and his tinkering with them, if he made the original versions of the Star Wars movies (the one that played in theatres when they first came out) available on DVD. It would be good for him to acknowledge them as what got him to where he is now, as well as the feelings his fans (who are the reason he has what he has) have toward them. After that, he can put out all the different versions he likes, and call them what he wants, and people will be free to ignore him. Of course, I think that was the point Galvatron was making, that Lucas' megalomania on this subject and need to make the older movies conform to the newer ones, would preclude that.

ali-sama · Post by **ali-sama** » 2004-05-28 04:10pm

Super-Gagme wrote:I don't believe it, looks false. Want to know why? Because they aren't using Ewan McGreggor for Obi ghost. If it is true, then Lucas truely has gone nutso, sort of like Hitler.

ob1 said it himself. anakin died by vaders hands. the day vader was born, anakin died as a person. hence. he could go back to that day.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-05-28 04:37pm

Luke and Leia turning out to be siblings is the birth of the minimalism that's plagued the franchise since the end of the OT. Quadrillions of humans in the galaxy and two of the most important members of the Rebellion and the New Republic to follow just happen to be long-lost twins. It's a plot "twist" from a Mary Sue fanfic.

And if it wasn't thrown in at the last minute, then Lucas did a pisspoor job setting it up. She stuck his tongue down his throat in ESB, and the connection he made to her through the Force later in the movie could have been a matter of necessity--droids can't use the Force and he wasn't as close to Chewbacca as he was to her. At any rate, she could have turned out to be Force-sensitive--even Yoda's "other"--without being related to him.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-05-28 04:49pm

RedImperator wrote:Luke and Leia turning out to be siblings is the birth of the minimalism that's plagued the franchise since the end of the OT. Quadrillions of humans in the galaxy and two of the most important members of the Rebellion and the New Republic to follow just happen to be long-lost twins. It's a plot "twist" from a Mary Sue fanfic.

You could say the same about ANH. How many people are on Tatooine and the droids just happen to fall into the hands of Luke Skywalker?

There's more of a chance, but still, that's pretty damn random.

It looks like Lucas was trying to work in a fate angle where things happened because they're supposed to. Like the Force setting things up to happen.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-05-28 05:10pm

Galvatron wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I personally don't trust Kurtz on what he says was the original direction for the sequels, primarily because they so contradict what Lucas and others have said in the past.
Lucas has stretched his credibility razor thin with me. His revisionism and self-contradictions have driven me to doubt anything he says nowadays.

To me, Gary Kurtz is like the Richard Clarke of Lucasfilm.

For crying out loud. Have you read the early drafts of Star Wars (from '73 to '76)? See this page:

www.starwarz.com/starkiller

It's a good collection of the early drafts of what later became known as ANH. The drafts for TESB and ROTJ is harder to find (or rather impossible), but it's simplier for ANH scripts. See also Laurent Bouzerau's excellent book Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays. All those scripts on the page I referred to is paraphrased in that book, but I think it's better to have a look at the drafts in their entirety. Personally, I don't find Gary Kurtz to be especially trustworthy.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-05-28 08:12pm

So, is Lucas' heir likely to release the original editions? If he is, we just need to wait it out... and maybe send Lucas lots of Claim Jumper coupons.

If not, we need to get to work on him/her/ewok with the OT appreciation.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-05-29 02:33am

neoolong wrote:
RedImperator wrote:Luke and Leia turning out to be siblings is the birth of the minimalism that's plagued the franchise since the end of the OT. Quadrillions of humans in the galaxy and two of the most important members of the Rebellion and the New Republic to follow just happen to be long-lost twins. It's a plot "twist" from a Mary Sue fanfic.
You could say the same about ANH. How many people are on Tatooine and the droids just happen to fall into the hands of Luke Skywalker?

There's more of a chance, but still, that's pretty damn random.

It looks like Lucas was trying to work in a fate angle where things happened because they're supposed to. Like the Force setting things up to happen.

First of all, in ANH, R2D2 was trying to reach Obi Wan Kenobi. Kenobi lives near Skywalker (probably on purpose), so it's not surprising the droids ended up near Luke to start. And as a relatively well-off moisture farmer ("well off" as in not going bankrupt at that moment), Owen Lars is a natural customer for the Jawas (he may have even flagged them down). So it's not nearly as improbable as the two of the leaders of the Rebellion turning out to be long lost twins.

Second, from a storytelling standpoint, you can get away with a few coincidences, especially if they come at the beginning and set up the story, and are logically understandable. Suspension of disbelief (the literary concept, not the sci-fi analysis method) allows for the droids to just happen to meet Luke because without it, there isn't much of a movie, is there? The Luke-Leia relationship doesn't come close to meeting any of these criteria. You can delete it and have practically the same movie, right down to Leia being the "other". It's a pointless, stupid soap opera plot twist that wasn't foreshadowed AT ALL until it was dumped in our laps.

Finally, a word on the Force: Force-whoring is another sin of new Star Wars. Wrote yourself into a corner? Need to justify a wildly improbable event? Just use the Force as a deus ex machina, or an ex post facto explanation for your own incompetence as a writer. In ANH, the Force was subtle, but powerful--it nudged the universe, not bludgdeoned it. Using it as an explanation for a stupid plot twist doesn't make the plot twist any less stupid and cheapens the Force in the process.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-05-29 04:00am

RedImperator wrote:
neoolong wrote:
RedImperator wrote:Luke and Leia turning out to be siblings is the birth of the minimalism that's plagued the franchise since the end of the OT. Quadrillions of humans in the galaxy and two of the most important members of the Rebellion and the New Republic to follow just happen to be long-lost twins. It's a plot "twist" from a Mary Sue fanfic.
You could say the same about ANH. How many people are on Tatooine and the droids just happen to fall into the hands of Luke Skywalker?

There's more of a chance, but still, that's pretty damn random.

It looks like Lucas was trying to work in a fate angle where things happened because they're supposed to. Like the Force setting things up to happen.
First of all, in ANH, R2D2 was trying to reach Obi Wan Kenobi. Kenobi lives near Skywalker (probably on purpose), so it's not surprising the droids ended up near Luke to start. And as a relatively well-off moisture farmer ("well off" as in not going bankrupt at that moment), Owen Lars is a natural customer for the Jawas (he may have even flagged them down). So it's not nearly as improbable as the two of the leaders of the Rebellion turning out to be long lost twins.

Maybe not as improbable, but still pretty damn improbable.

Besides, you can rationalize Luke and Leia finding each other too. Obi-wan has to hide them so he hides them with people he knows or who he thinks he can trust. So one goes to a family member, and the other goes to a senator that he presumably can trust. One that would logically have similar viewpoints to him. So he hides Leia with Bail Organa, who grows up to have similar views as her father presumably. So when the Rebellion comes about it isn't suprising to see her a part of it. And since she was trying to find Obi-Wan it shouldn't be suprising to find her get close to Luke since Obi-Wan was watching out for him.

Second, from a storytelling standpoint, you can get away with a few coincidences, especially if they come at the beginning and set up the story, and are logically understandable. Suspension of disbelief (the literary concept, not the sci-fi analysis method) allows for the droids to just happen to meet Luke because without it, there isn't much of a movie, is there? The Luke-Leia relationship doesn't come close to meeting any of these criteria. You can delete it and have practically the same movie, right down to Leia being the "other". It's a pointless, stupid soap opera plot twist that wasn't foreshadowed AT ALL until it was dumped in our laps.

So? The point is that there are other improbably events that occur in the OT. The fact that they happen doesn't start with Luke and Leia.

Finally, a word on the Force: Force-whoring is another sin of new Star Wars. Wrote yourself into a corner? Need to justify a wildly improbable event? Just use the Force as a deus ex machina, or an ex post facto explanation for your own incompetence as a writer. In ANH, the Force was subtle, but powerful--it nudged the universe, not bludgdeoned it. Using it as an explanation for a stupid plot twist doesn't make the plot twist any less stupid and cheapens the Force in the process.

Okay, and that is important how?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2004-05-29 04:55am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
neoolong wrote:It's not really a bootleg item.

You buy the laserdiscs, which are expensive now I think, and transfer it to DVDs.
Anybody out there got some laserdiscs of the OT and want to make me a non-bootleg?

I downloaded them with bit torrent a few weeks ago, they were 40 gigabytes a piece. I don't know if they're still around, though.