ISD1 vs ISD2

[Ma Deuce]

Ahhh, so it was a fluke or something?

No, just special circumstances: Most battles (especially not 1 vs. 1 engagements) allows the luxery of taking the time to siphon all your weapons power into a single ion cannon shot, especially considering that in the only known case where this tactic was performed, Harsk's ISD was on the same side as Daala's, and thus never even suspected that she would open fire on them.

[Techno_Union]

Ahhh, so it was a fluke or something?

No, just special circumstances: Most battles (especially not 1 vs. 1 engagements) allows the luxery of taking the time to siphon all your weapons power into a single ion cannon shot, especially considering that in the only known case where this tactic was performed, Harsk's ISD was on the same side as Daala's, and thus never even suspected that she would open fire on them.

Nope not a fluke, but Ma Duece is right, Harrsk never expected it, but, the ISD fleet Daala was leading were already battleing dozens of VSDs, not to mention a quarter of their fleet was taken out by mines hidden in the asteroid field. So this tactic can be duplicated, but it does require you to bring most of your weapons "off-line" so to speak while to charge the ion cannon (which only took, IMO, 5-10 seconds). Then as long as you are in weapons range, go for it.

[Striderteen]

In one of the Rogue Squadron books, an Alliance ISD-I aborts an operation and flees because an Imperial ISD-II is inbound, and it's stated in the debrief that the ISD-II would have pounded the ISD-I even though the Rebel ship had additional starfighters with it.

[Alyeska]

In one of the Rogue Squadron books, an Alliance ISD-I aborts an operation and flees because an Imperial ISD-II is inbound, and it's stated in the debrief that the ISD-II would have pounded the ISD-I even though the Rebel ship had additional starfighters with it.

Not quite correct. It was stated that it was a good thing they abandoned the attack on the planet because the ISD2 would have trounced them after they had taken it IF they had taken it. You see the Alliance was sending in Rogue Squadron to take down two Tie-Starfighter squadrons. The Y-Wings that attacked were supposed to leave. That leaves an ISD1 with only Rogue Squadron vs a fresh ISD2 and a full Tie Compliment.

[Lord Pounder]

Slam nodded and slowly pointed with a glass of pale blue Abrax cognac at the datapad on his desk. "Intelligence reports that the Imperial Start Destroyer-II Eviscerator left left the Venjagga system on a course that would have put it in at Blackmoon within six hours after we launched our operation. Its six squadrons ot TIEs would have mached our fighters and the Eviscerator would have pounded on the Emancipator. Chances are very good we would have lost our stroke force and Blackmoon"

This to me seems imply that the ISDII outgunned the ISDI

[Alyeska]

What that says is that the ISD2 had 6 times the number of fighters that the Alliance had along with the ISD2 itself having more heavy guns. It does not say that an ISD2 would win in the scenario I gave.

Remember, in that book example the ISD1 only had Rogue Squadron for backup. General Salm and Defender Wing were recalled and would have been gone had the mission gone as planned. Thats 36 Y-Wings out of the picture that might have evened the odds a bit along with Rogue Squadron.

So an ISD2 with 5-1 number advantage of fighters over an ISD1 with just a single (possibly damaged) squadron of X-Wings favors the ISD2. Thats not a surprise.

[RogueIce]

What that says is that the ISD2 had 6 times the number of fighters that the Alliance had along with the ISD2 itself having more heavy guns. It does not say that an ISD2 would win in the scenario I gave.

Remember, in that book example the ISD1 only had Rogue Squadron for backup. General Salm and Defender Wing were recalled and would have been gone had the mission gone as planned. Thats 36 Y-Wings out of the picture that might have evened the odds a bit along with Rogue Squadron.

So an ISD2 with 5-1 number advantage of fighters over an ISD1 with just a single (possibly damaged) squadron of X-Wings favors the ISD2. Thats not a surprise.

This was a post battle debrief too, wasn't it? Meaning they knew about the ion cannon and how it had pounded on the Rebel ISD already. That couldn't have been too good either (assuming my recollection of the books isn't way off).

[Alyeska]

What that says is that the ISD2 had 6 times the number of fighters that the Alliance had along with the ISD2 itself having more heavy guns. It does not say that an ISD2 would win in the scenario I gave.

Remember, in that book example the ISD1 only had Rogue Squadron for backup. General Salm and Defender Wing were recalled and would have been gone had the mission gone as planned. Thats 36 Y-Wings out of the picture that might have evened the odds a bit along with Rogue Squadron.

So an ISD2 with 5-1 number advantage of fighters over an ISD1 with just a single (possibly damaged) squadron of X-Wings favors the ISD2. Thats not a surprise.

This was a post battle debrief too, wasn't it? Meaning they knew about the ion cannon and how it had pounded on the Rebel ISD already. That couldn't have been too good either (assuming my recollection of the books isn't way off).

Yes. However they were commenting that had the original battle gone according to plan they would be in a worse situation when the ISD2 shows up. Defender wing is gone, Rogue Squadron alone (though they may also have left actualy) leaving a single ISD1 and a couple dropships to fight an ISD2 with a full fighter compliment.

[Striderteen]

What that says is that the ISD2 had 6 times the number of fighters that the Alliance had along with the ISD2 itself having more heavy guns. It does not say that an ISD2 would win in the scenario I gave.

This may be overly semantic, but the way it's phrased implies Imperial Fighters > Rebel Fighters & ISD2 > ISD1 rather than Imperial Fighters + ISD2 > Rebel Fighters + ISD1.

[Mad]

This may be overly semantic, but the way it's phrased implies Imperial Fighters > Rebel Fighters & ISD2 > ISD1 rather than Imperial Fighters + ISD2 > Rebel Fighters + ISD1.

Of course 6 squadrons of Imperial fighters can take on a single squadron of Rebel X-wings that have just emerged from a previous battle. And an ISD2 can take on an ISD1. But you need to keep everything in context.

But Alyeska's scenario has 2 bomber squadrons plus the suvivors of the 2 X-wing squadrons after clearing out fighters. That's much more firepower than a single squadron of X-wings. The scenarios are totally different.

[Kerneth]

This may be overly semantic, but the way it's phrased implies Imperial Fighters > Rebel Fighters & ISD2 > ISD1 rather than Imperial Fighters + ISD2 > Rebel Fighters + ISD1.

"Its six squadrons of TIEs would have matched our fighters."

I think you're being overly semantic, as you said. He makes a point of nothing that it had 6 squadrons of TIEs versus the Rebel fighters--a mere dozen X-Wings, if you accept Alyeska's interpretation, and 3 squadrons of Y-Wings (not much good in a dogfight) + a squadron of X-Wings if you assume that the Y-Wings would have stuck around.

Keep in mind: the X-Wings and Y-Wings would be low or out of warheads, the pilots would be tired, and they quite possibly would have taken losses in the process of capturing the world. Versus 6 squadrons of fresh, fully-armed TIEs (though I don't know what mix of fighters, interceptors and bombers they'd be facing, I'm sure someone here could tell me).

In this situation, what he's saying is 6 squadrons of Imperial fighters > 1 squadron of Rebel fighters (after combat losses, with munitions depleted and exhausted pilots) & ISD2 > ISD1, with neither ship having fighters. Once again, that's accepting Alyeska's theory that only Rogue Squadron would have been available.

About the Y-Wings: While the earlier example of the P-40 versus the Japenese Zero is a good one, it can't be stretched to cover a Y-Wing versus a TIE Fighter or Interceptor; while the Zero was a bit more manueverable than the P-40, it wasn't THAT much more, while a TIE Fighter or Interceptor can fly circles around a Y-Wing (particularly the single-seater without a turreted ion cannon and gunner).

The Y-Wings are further handicapped by being much more vulnerable to the ISD IIs light turbolaser batteries than X-Wings or A-Wings would have been, while the ISD 1s light turbolasers would have a relatively hard time hitting TIEs.

EDIT: Fixed misspelling of Alyeska's name. Sorry about that.

[Alyeska]

What that says is that the ISD2 had 6 times the number of fighters that the Alliance had along with the ISD2 itself having more heavy guns. It does not say that an ISD2 would win in the scenario I gave.

This may be overly semantic, but the way it's phrased implies Imperial Fighters > Rebel Fighters & ISD2 > ISD1 rather than Imperial Fighters + ISD2 > Rebel Fighters + ISD1.

Incorrect. The book effectively states the following

ISD1 + 1 X-Wing < ISD2 + 6 Tie

Here is where it gets even worse. Rogue Squadron might not even have stayed. Defender Wing was supposed to pull out, had the opperation gone as planned so might Rogue Squadron.

Then you get ISD1 < ISD2 + 6 Tie

Thats a big difference compared to my scenario. My Scenario gives the ISD1 more then double the bomber craft (and mind you these are superior bombers) as well as 2 squadrons of X-Wings which also have sufficent torpedoes to cause harm to an ISD2. My scenario allows the ISD1 to annihilate the ISD2s fighter screen and bombers and then engage the ISD2 at will.

The book pits an ISD1 with little or no fighter support against a fresh fully stocked ISD2.

[Asdeed]

I'm referring back to the start of the thread here where the plan for an ISD I victory involved keeping the ship itself out of range while the fighters move in, taking out the TIE fighter's and softening up the ISD II.

Now a gravity well was mentioned to be effecting both ships ability to withdraw, which i'm taking to mean no hyperdrive in the vicinity of the battle, just to be clear on my plan for an ISD II win.

Since it can't hit the ISD I anyway the ISD II can keep hold back its fighters rather than sending them out to engage and use every weapon at its disposal to fire on the Rebel fighters as they make their run towards the ISD II. Certainly the trip won't take long with the speeds of SW fighters, but the Destroyer should get at least one full volley of fire at them since they have to travel the entire range of its weapons to reach it. Sure the rebels will still get there but without character shields protecting them they should have taken some casualties and now have to battle a full fighter wing and its carrier.

Maybe they'll still manage to paste all the TIE's and weaken the ISD II, but unless TIE's are abysmal at fighting cooperatively with their command ship I wouldn't count on it.