Who actually made that prophecy?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-09-02 06:24pm

Knife wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
Lord_Woodlouse wrote:Well the books now seem to be indicating that there is neither a light nor a dark side, as such. It's all the same thing.
You sure you're not getting the official material confused with StarCrossed?
NJO, in that the light and the dark are not in the Force, rather in the Force user. Vergerne's little philosaphy.

My take is of an abstract of the civilization. The Republic was old, corrupt, slothful, and crumbling.

Change is usually painful, and on a large scale, really painful. The Chosen One is one of those 'the cure is as bad as the desease' things. While the Republic was broken, it was too big, powerful and entrenched to just wipe away with conventional means.

Along comes Anikin and Palpy (part of the old scheme) and radically, painfully, and trajecially flush the Republic down the drain. Luke comes along and changes the changer, if you will. And takes out the Empire which took out the Republic. Now a new enlightened Republic can begin.

Vader was necessary for the change from the old to the middle, and the seed for the change from the middle to the end. He's the link in both chains while Palpy was just needed for the first part and Luke was only needed for the last part.

I would hardly call the New Republic enlightened. They simply replaced anti-alien bias with with anti-human bias. Also it was the NR that developed and almost released a bio weapon that'd kill an entire species and anything unfortunate enough to have similar cells.

Palpy used a blatant iron hammer, but the NR's dagger in the back was no less effective. What happens with the GFFR remains to be seen.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-02 06:28pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Isn't it Son of the Suns? And that prophecy concerns Luke Skywalker, as opposed to the Chosen One.

I think it might be. Both the Unofficial Encyclopedia and the Annotated Screenplays book have it as singular "Sun", but over at Starkiller, in the transcript of the second and third drafts for Star Wars, it says plural "Suns".

So yeah, I guess it should really be plural and the CUSWE and the AS book have an error.

You're probably also right about Luke being the Son of the Suns, although development-wise, early on in the treatments and drafts, Anakin and Luke were sort of the same character in certain ways.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-09-02 06:36pm

Lord Pounder wrote: I would hardly call the New Republic enlightened. They simply replaced anti-alien bias with with anti-human bias. Also it was the NR that developed and almost released a bio weapon that'd kill an entire species and anything unfortunate enough to have similar cells.

Palpy used a blatant iron hammer, but the NR's dagger in the back was no less effective. What happens with the GFFR remains to be seen.

Well, if you want to expand into EU, the NR lasts another 20 years (just as long as the Empire) until the Vong, haven't finished the books yet, but I gotta figure that the entire NR gets revamped after the war. Really, at this point (Destineys Way) there is no way the NR after Vong can be the same as before.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-02 07:13pm

It gets confusing... I know few of us buy the notion that Lucas had "all of this in his head" (ie: all six movies as we see them today) from day 1 (back in the 1970's). And it's harder still to assume that all of the stuff in the EU was also "in his head" (not that he has made such a claim of course).

Rather, it seems to be an unfolding story, that shifts with George's tastes and point of view in his life (and financial status, since he claimed the SE's were done because he lacked the money and time to make the movies like he wanted to back when they were first released) and the EU stories are told by other people, with his approval of course.

The "Son of the Suns" sounds like a reference to the twin suns of Tatooine. Of course, both Luke and Anakin are from Tatooine.

I see it as the whole Galahad/Lancelot thing from the Arthurian romances.

Lancelot is the great hero and everyone thinks he's so wonderful, but then he screws up and falls off the path and his son is the one that fixes things in the end, not old dad.

Then of course we could say that Vader still fixes things, because he kills Palpatine, but then he wouldn't have done it without Luke's aide. And the whole need for Luke to be there was because of his (Vader's) own mistake.

Of course we don't know if Luke is literally born on Tatooine (ROTS hopefully will clear this up), but the fact that he is "from there" need not be 100% literal (are prophecies ever so literal?).

Lucas himself clearly believes in a Dark Side and a Light Side, and that's been his "line" ever since he created the trilogy. That the NJO portrays a character saying "it's just all shades of gray man!" need not override the Flanneled One's analysis of his own mythos. ; )

Lucas likes to portray the good guys as good and the bad guys as bad. Though in the prequels he's strated to put out the idea that the bad guys can sure "appear" to be good for awhile and the good guys can be ignorant of what the bad guys are doing. With the EU the tendancy seems to have been to start out portraying the good guys as good, and the bad guys as evil, then starting to make everything "gray." So you have the New Republic being corrupt and committing atrocities, heroic Imperial characters, etc. I suppose that's either writer's block or just the general trend in fiction to expand on characters. People want their anti-heroes, edgy stories and plot twists.

The majority of the EU stories were written WITHOUT the benefit of knowing the stories that would play out in the prequels. And yes, I know they were getting feedback from Lucas all along, but, he clearly changed his mind and/or deliberately withheld various surprises from them, leading to the various retcons that have shown up in EU materials since then. Thus that the full extent of the "Skywalker prophecy" isn't seemlingly taken into account in these EU stories shouldn't come as a surprise.

And yes, I realize that's not an 'in-universe' explanation...

PS: Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith beat the NJO to this whole "no dark or light side" thing by a bit (early 1998).

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-09-03 11:46am

I thought this was Son of Sun.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-03 12:07pm

If it concerned Luke, it had to be Son of the Suns. Why? Tatooine was in a binary star system. There were two suns.

Also, one of our admins has the screen name of Son of the Suns, and if it was a screwup, I think he would've changed it by now.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-03 02:39pm

Overheard from Radio chatter of Imperial pilot:

Luke, you son of a...!!!

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-09-03 03:18pm

Kurgan wrote: The "Son of the Suns" sounds like a reference to the twin suns of Tatooine. Of course, both Luke and Anakin are from Tatooine.

It is supposed to be a reference to Tatooine.

I see it as the whole Galahad/Lancelot thing from the Arthurian romances.

I always preferred a Shakespearian tragedy.

Lucas himself clearly believes in a Dark Side and a Light Side, and that's been his "line" ever since he created the trilogy. That the NJO portrays a character saying "it's just all shades of gray man!" need not override the Flanneled One's analysis of his own mythos. ; )

I recently purchased Unifying Force, and Luke smashes the idea of There is No Dark Side to pieces. For god sake, if even Vegere believes that there's such a thing as evil, that its. Why go on to argue that the Force is one energy field, and you find what you bring into it?

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-09-04 01:13am

I know who it is. Its been bothering me ever since Ep 1 came out when i said they picked the wrong skywalker to believe he was the one to bring balance to the force. Originally i thought it was Luke but now i believe its going to be Ben Skywalker!

Think about (yes im bringing it back), after Luke finds the teachings of the Premodium on Zenoma Sekot. The teachings describe a force that has no light or dark side but is based on the users wants and desires, The force itself has no power or manipulation on the user.

Now im not saying that its the correct teaching to use but Luke was very interested in the teachings when (that weird old republic jedi/vong thing) told Luke about it. Now the series is called the New Jedi Order and leaves us off that the Solo Twins and Ben will eventually be handed the torch. I believe that Ben Skywalker will be the one to bring balance to the force when he spreads the teachings of the Premodium and others learn of the NON DIVIDED FORCE!

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2004-09-04 04:11am

Praxis wrote:You don't think, after millenia, it might be a tad hard to find one peice of information in the TRILLIONS of results that'll come up on Google?

Think Google. Add in natural disasters on an unprecedented scale. Multiply by a hundred million. Mix, shake well and serve.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-04 01:02pm

We're basically being asked to accept that there have been galaxy wide "Dark Ages" multiple times in Republic history.

I mean, it's one thing to see a Dark Age happening on a single planet (a planet that doesn't even have space travel yet), but in the Galaxy, you'd think that at least some planets would maintain hyperdrive capability and thus being to communicate with other worlds.

Did somebody blow up Arrakis? What happened? I see it more as a difficult retcon because of the shrinking period between the prequels and the OT. But in universe, while the idea of a galactic "Dark Age" is romantic, it seems a bit of a stretch.

Putting it into a Galactic context boggles the mind I guess. Probably a bad example, but let's say in a hypothetical scenario the US government (for some insane reason known only to them) one day tried to suppress Ronald Reagan's presidency. So they blow up his gravesite, they kidnap Nancy. They burn all the official records that he was ever elected, in office, etc. People ask government officials and they say "Reagan? Who's Reagan?"

It wouldn't work because, while it would certainly be bizzare, there's all the books written about (and most likely by) Reagan, there's the memories of his presidency by various people, there's the streets and buildings named after him (well besides the government ones that might be changed), there's even movies that he's starred in. He's even mentioned in a few video games! Information can be suppressed certainly, but its hard to do it in such a short time when it's so widespread. And once the influence that's doing the suppressing is gone, well...

Again though, probably not a good example because we're dealing with a whole galaxy.

I always preferred a Shakespearian tragedy.

Yeah, lots more soliloquays, bawdy jokes, suicides, etc. good times. ; )

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-04 01:08pm

The Prophecy was made to the Jedi shortly before the Schism. Since it was something which was probably Jedi knowledge, the Schism was probably destructive enough that the Jedi records and such could easily have been destroyed.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-04 01:11pm

Schism? What Schism? The Sith thing? (2,000-1,000 years pre-TPM)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-04 03:46pm

No, the original Schism when the Order was formed. 25,000 years BBY.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-04 04:28pm

So the prophecy was made 25,000 years ago. Well that's a little more reasonable than that it was only made 1,000 or 2,000 years ago (lacking so much info from it).

The Jedi seemed to be very familiar with it after all... (ie: there was no scene of Qui Gon or Mace Windu digging through the Archives to read it, they knew it from memory)

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-09-05 12:37am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Prophecy was made to the Jedi shortly before the Schism. Since it was something which was probably Jedi knowledge, the Schism was probably destructive enough that the Jedi records and such could easily have been destroyed.

if anybody is familar with the Premodium teachings from the books Rogue Planet and and the NJO books with Zenoma Sekot, please tell me is it possible the founders of the Premodium Force teachings may have been part of the schism?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-09-05 03:13am

Kurgan wrote:So the prophecy was made 25,000 years ago. Well that's a little more reasonable than that it was only made 1,000 or 2,000 years ago (lacking so much info from it).

The Jedi seemed to be very familiar with it after all... (ie: there was no scene of Qui Gon or Mace Windu digging through the Archives to read it, they knew it from memory)

There are people out there who still claim that King Arthur will return. And of course, there are those who claimed that he did, in the Blitz of Conventry.

lots more soliloquays

I mean, take a look at it. Luke and Yoda conversations with Obi-wan certainly look like that, don't they?

Now im not saying that its the correct teaching to use but Luke was very interested in the teachings when (that weird old republic jedi/vong thing) told Luke about it. Now the series is called the New Jedi Order and leaves us off that the Solo Twins and Ben will eventually be handed the torch. I believe that Ben Skywalker will be the one to bring balance to the force when he spreads the teachings of the Premodium and others learn of the NON DIVIDED FORCE!

Actually, that's more probably the third prophecy, which epouse something about the sons of Skywalker.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-09-06 03:26am

PainRack wrote: There are people out there who still claim that King Arthur will return. And of course, there are those who claimed that he did, in the Blitz of Conventry.

True. People remember a figure from 1500 years ago (from legends dating back a few centuries after his proposed existence). 'Course we're pathetically primitive compared to the SW Galaxy, which has had FTL travel and other hyper-advanced technologies for longer than we've been around. So perhaps we can't find a good analogy from our own history.

I mean, take a look at it. Luke and Yoda conversations with Obi-wan certainly look like that, don't they?

The Bard was possitively verbose by comparison. The prequels are a little more in that line though. I'm thinking more the dramatic speeches that are as much to the audience (about the characters inner thoughts) as to a character in the story. Something like Anakin's statements after the slaughter of the Tuskens. But, still pretty short. I guess it counts.

Those "tone poems" on the TPM dvd are pretty solid though! ; )

These prophets sound interesting. I wonder how they recieved their visions. Did they just "quiet themselves" and "hear the midichlorians speaking to them"? Do they seek out their visions in some way? Or do they try to influence events based on the shifting future (like Palpatine or Yoda seem to do at least in part)?

That would be an interesting topic to explore in some story if they haven't already. Do they know the "Will" of the Force, or do they partially create it?