Battle of Endor questions

[Ghost Rider]

Actually they were ordered not to let them escape. Different than not let them attack. People keep trying to escuse away the craptasticness of the Empire or Georgies story :p

It's not the excuse...in fact the plan would have worked except one small mistep.

Plus Piett's second actually comments on this "We're not going to attack?"

Thus how does that countermand Connor's point of Palpatine not ordering them to attack. The actions of the Fleet were obviously to keep them there and not attack, to make the effect of the Death Star operational status that much more so.

This is also backed up by the fact that even Calrissan comments only the fighters are attacking.

[Super-Gagme]

Yes, this is true. But to suggest the ISDs were only shooting back at the Rebel fleet "lightly" when the Rebels closed to in your face range, seems a bit off and kind of like too much of a hand wavey.

[Connor MacLeod]

Did you forget? The Rebels attacked THEM. They moved right into the thick of the Imperial fleet.

But how does that countermanded his point?

Seriously the reasons the Rebels held up that good is because the Imperials were ordered not to attack, so they went on a light defensive.

Actually they were ordered not to let them escape. Different than not let them attack. People keep trying to escuse away the craptasticness of the Empire or Georgies story :p

Piett gave the order to "Hold position" and his subordinate asks (in disbelief) "We're not going to attack?" Piett responds by saying he has ORders frfom the Emperor (who has somthing "special planned" for them, and that they only need to keep them from escaping.) What the hell else do you think "I have my orders from the Emperor" could mean in response to his subordinate's question?

In addition to that, the fact that the Empire had the advantage in at least firepower (particularily including the Executor) if not numbers (the novel mentions a second flanking wave which woul d have to be at least as large as the Rebel fleet itself). The only thing that explains their inability to decimate the Rebels utterly is the fact that Palpatine ordered them not to attack.

[Super-Gagme]

You missed "We're only suppose to keep them from escaping." which is kind of key here. Now I know this forums tendency to take the obvious director/writer intention and skew it to make more in universe sense, but come on. By not attacking he is not engaging the fleet directly, but when the Rebels attack the fleet itself, you think the Imperials just didn't shoot back? Just attacking back lightly and doing nothing was hardly the impression anyone gets from the scene, not to mention the pointlessness of shooting without intent to do anything. But you're right, clearly the Imperials would have tore the Rebels up and they chose not to. Lets rape the creators story more eh?

I'm done, flame all you want.

[Ghost Rider]

You missed "We're only suppose to keep them from escaping." which is kind of key here. Now I know this forums tendency to take the obvious director/writer intention and skew it to make more in universe sense, but come on. By not attacking he is not engaging the fleet directly, but when the Rebels attack the fleet itself, you think the Imperials just didn't shoot back? Just attacking back lightly and doing nothing was hardly the impression anyone gets from the scene, not to mention the pointlessness of shooting without intent to do anything. But you're right, clearly the Imperials would have tore the Rebels up and they chose not to. Lets rape the creators story more eh?

I'm done, flame all you want.

A small counter point.

Lando orders them to get closer so they don't get ass raped by the DS2...funny that Ackbar thinks this is foolish, if the Imps were only firing lightly.

So please...the Imps were winning even when they had to play defense to make sure the Emperor's trap was working.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, if Lando was killed, the Rebel Fleet would probably try to retreat, but there were still trusted leaders to take the helm of the remaining starfighters. And the DS cannot target a starfighter using its SL (at least, we think it can't).

But would they give the same tactics that Lando suggested? Remember that "point blank range" fighting between capital ships was so unusual that the thought of it shocked Ackbar. Lando's "advice" figures at least as importantly into the equation. Without that, Ackbar would probably have retreated, and if not, he probably would have lost most if not all of his ships to the Death Star.

The Star Cruisers would be slowly decimated, but someone like Wedge would lead the starfighter attack, and it'd be a dice roll due to the different circumstances whether there would have been a leaker, though the Imperials would have been better organized, improving their roll.

The starfighter attack might have succeeded without Lando, yes, but again, would he have been able to influence the outcome the way Lando did? Would Ackbar have decided to stay and fight on Wedge's suggestion?

And now that we come to it, how likely is it Wedge would remain behind to press the attack if Ackbar HAD ordered the retreat? I doubt he would have defied orders.

While Lando made the suggestion to Ackbar, he's a very new commander to the Alliance, and thus would have little of that special rallying ability of an old hand in times of adversary. He's probably a low-ranked general.

And put him in charge of virtually the entire Starfighter complement that was brought to the battle itself, which suggests he's not as "low ranked" as you suggest. And there is still the not-so-subtle fact Ackbar LISTENED to his "advice" on more than one occasion, which bears little on Lando's status. What does that say to Ackbar if the only way he won the battle was by following the advice of their newest "officer?"

So when the Home One blows, seeing how close to the edge the Rebel Fleet is, whoever is the senior Line Admiral remaining will probably order a retreat, and in his panicked status (and trying to gain control over what's left of the fleet to boot) will not be likely to be listening to his untried starfighter commander blubbering about a 'never-tried-before' tactic. In that case, the Fleet will tell the starfighters to act as a rearguard and retreat. Thus the retreat is the same, except the main Rebel Fleet is in more disarray and even less likely to be able to counterattack.

And Ackbar was ready to retreat after having a single ship blasted by the superlaser. And by a weapon that takes minutes to recharge. You don't think he was already panicking maybe?

Moreover, do we have any reason to believe the officers wouldn't listen? If Ackbar listened to him, that suggests his subordinates would be bound to listen as well. Particularily since if Lando can persuade Ackbar, he should be able to persuade someone less capable/commanding than Ackbar himself.

A Fleet in space cannot literally stop a escape. All they can do is put firepower in front of the escapers' path. If the Imperials will simply not attack with any of their ships, there's actually a chance the Rebels could escape, especially their light units.

They can use interdictors and related technologies/techniques to "block" hyperspace attempts (partticularily if they're within the gravity well of the moon and/or Death Star.) I might also point out that such technologies also have teh side effect of hampering ship manuverability (ref: The Phantom Affair.) and possibly couple the Death STar's own capability in that regard. And there are always tractor beams to consider as well,

I might point out that its not "strictly" neccessary for the Imperials to wipe out ALL ships - wiping out most or all of their heavy ships would be a serious enough blow, and the others could be hunted down.

[Connor MacLeod]

You missed "We're only suppose to keep them from escaping." which is kind of key here. Now I know this forums tendency to take the obvious director/writer intention and skew it to make more in universe sense, but come on. By not attacking he is not engaging the fleet directly, but when the Rebels attack the fleet itself, you think the Imperials just didn't shoot back? Just attacking back lightly and doing nothing was hardly the impression anyone gets from the scene, not to mention the pointlessness of shooting without intent to do anything. But you're right, clearly the Imperials would have tore the Rebels up and they chose not to. Lets rape the creators story more eh?

I'm done, flame all you want.

Piett or any of the other military officers could very well have known what the Emperor commanded was stupid and tried to take his own action, but lets say he does and ends up mauling the Rebels at least as much as the Death Star. Do you think the Emperor would be pleased at having such interference? Its the same case as with the Hoth asteroid scene - Vader obviously ordered Death Squadron to engage in a holonet conference, even though this would require the lowering of at least some of their shielding to pass a communications through... and look what happened. Its stupid, but at the same time very few people survive outright defiance of the Emperor and/or Vader.

Thats why I've said that much of the failure at Endor is due to the actions of the Emperor.

[PainRack]

Piett or any of the other military officers could very well have known what the Emperor commanded was stupid and tried to take his own action, but lets say he does and ends up mauling the Rebels at least as much as the Death Star. Do you think the Emperor would be pleased at having such interference? Its the same case as with the Hoth asteroid scene - Vader obviously ordered Death Squadron to engage in a holonet conference, even though this would require the lowering of at least some of their shielding to pass a communications through... and look what happened. Its stupid, but at the same time very few people survive outright defiance of the Emperor and/or Vader.

Thats why I've said that much of the failure at Endor is due to the actions of the Emperor.

Just wish to clarify something. Are you suggesting that Piett did not engage with the Rebel fleet at all?

[nasor]

It's not the excuse...in fact the plan would have worked except one small mistep.

Indeed – the plan would have worked perfectly if only the emperor hadn’t miscalculated in assuming that ‘an entire legion of his best troops’ would be able to beat a tribe of three-foot-tall teddy bears with spears. It’s kind of an understandable mistake.

[Ghost Rider]

It's not the excuse...in fact the plan would have worked except one small mistep.

Indeed – the plan would have worked perfectly if only the emperor hadn’t miscalculated in assuming that ‘an entire legion of his best troops’ would be able to beat a tribe of three-foot-tall teddy bears with spears. It’s kind of an understandable mistake.

They nearly did.

In fact the only misstep was that Chewbacca got lucky. The Imperial forces had all but won the battle.

Unless you want to presume that 50-100 troopers is a legion, and also be completely ignorant to the level of kills and slaughter the imperials had over the Ewoks.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

In fact the only mis step was that Chewbacca got lucky. The Imperial forces had all but won the battle.

That was bad, but the real misstep was made by the man operating the blast doors of the shield bunker, who opened it up for a disguised Han Solo without asking for any sort of confirmation that he was an Imperial soldier. If he does, Han will come up blank, and the AT-ST heist is for nothing.

[Ghost Rider]

In fact the only mis step was that Chewbacca got lucky. The Imperial forces had all but won the battle.

That was bad, but the real misstep was made by the man operating the blast doors of the shield bunker, who opened it up for a disguised Han Solo without asking for any sort of confirmation that he was an Imperial soldier. If he does, Han will come up blank, and the AT-ST heist is for nothing.

True that was the bigger mistep.

All in all...the Rebels won by the barest of shreds and I just find it more and more irrational that people think that the Imps were ignorant baboons.

[nasor]

As I recall, the emperor’s plan was to lure the rebels in with the possibility of destroying the new death star (which they thought would be inactive and unshielded) and then trap them between the fully armed and operational station and the defending fleet in order to totally destroy them. My guess would be that the defending imperial fleet wasn’t decisively more powerful than the rebel fleet, since if it had been clearly superior the rebels would have simply decided that they couldn’t win and retreated as soon as they realized how outnumbered they were. So the imperial fleet was probably small enough that the rebels thought they at least had a chance of defeating it, assuming the death star wasn’t in the picture.

I disagree. Ackbar insisted that they had to retreat, which implies that the fleet DID outnumber them. Of course, the Empire couldn't pull a GIGANTIC fleet because the rebels would notice the shifting of ships. But the Imperial fleet WAS bigger than them, since Ackbar insisted they should run but Lando said they would never get another chance like this.

No, as I recall Ackbar just issues some new movement orders when he saw the imperial fleet. He didn’t insist on a retreat until the deathstar vaporized the first rebel cruiser. Immediately afterward Ackbar says “All craft prepare to retreat.” Lando says something like “We won’t have another chance at this” and Ackbar replies “We have no choice. Our cruisers can’t repel firepower of that magnitude.” Then Lando insists that they give Han a little more time to bring the shield down.

In any case, Ackbar does seem willing to order a retreat if he has no hope of winning. Since he doesn’t order the retreat until he learns that the deathstar is operational, it seems reasonable to conclude the he thought he had a fair chance of defeating the imperial fleet minus the deathstar.

[Techno_Union]

Somone had brought up how the Imperial Fleet was ordered not to fire, a direct order from Palpatine IIRC. Now didn't we see a scene that had the Executor (or another large ship) trading salvos with a Rebel frigate? That right there disobeys the Emperor's orders.

Not sure what that has to do with anything... but yeah.

[Ghost Rider]

Somone had brought up how the Imperial Fleet was ordered not to fire, a direct order from Palpatine IIRC. Now didn't we see a scene that had the Executor (or another large ship) trading salvos with a Rebel frigate? That right there disobeys the Emperor's orders.

Not sure what that has to do with anything... but yeah.

They were ordered not to attack.

They defended themselves when the RA came into their range firing.

[Batman]

In any case, Ackbar does seem willing to order a retreat if he has no hope of winning. Since he doesn’t order the retreat until he learns that the deathstar is operational, it seems reasonable to conclude the he thought he had a fair chance of defeating the imperial fleet minus the deathstar.

Nope. Their aim was NOT to defeat the imperial fleet, it was to destroy the DSII and Palaptine. Ackbar obviously thought he could hold out until such was achieved, but that by no means he thought he could win the engagement.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

They were ordered not to attack.

They defended themselves when the RA came into their range firing.

Besides, it'd have looked totally fake if they didn't fire at all, so they probably did do a bit of firing, but at a low intensity.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

But would they give the same tactics that Lando suggested? Remember that "point blank range" fighting between capital ships was so unusual that the thought of it shocked Ackbar. Lando's "advice" figures at least as importantly into the equation. Without that, Ackbar would probably have retreated, and if not, he probably would have lost most if not all of his ships to the Death Star.

I agreed that if Lando died, the retreat is probable and the destruction of most of the ships certain.

The starfighter attack might have succeeded without Lando, yes, but again, would he have been able to influence the outcome the way Lando did? Would Ackbar have decided to stay and fight on Wedge's suggestion?

No reason why not. He's basically desperate. Or else he probably wouldn't have listened to Lando.

And now that we come to it, how likely is it Wedge would remain behind to press the attack if Ackbar HAD ordered the retreat? I doubt he would have defied orders.

If suddenly before the retreat completed, they hear the shield is down, I bet Ackbar would order the starfighters back in.

And put him in charge of virtually the entire Starfighter complement that was brought to the battle itself, which suggests he's not as "low ranked" as you suggest. And there is still the not-so-subtle fact Ackbar LISTENED to his "advice" on more than one occasion, which bears little on Lando's status. What does that say to Ackbar if the only way he won the battle was by following the advice of their newest "officer?"

Really? Wedge was a Wing Commander according to the RSB, and leader of Red Wing. All Lando really needs is to be a very junior general to coordinate them all.

Ackbar was probably desperate for ideas by that time. He would have listened if Petty Officer Fourth Class Y gave him an idea.

And Ackbar was ready to retreat after having a single ship blasted by the superlaser. And by a weapon that takes minutes to recharge. You don't think he was already panicking maybe?

He's definitely close to the edge, but at least he'd probably do better than his subordinate.

Moreover, do we have any reason to believe the officers wouldn't listen? If Ackbar listened to him, that suggests his subordinates would be bound to listen as well. Particularily since if Lando can persuade Ackbar, he should be able to persuade someone less capable/commanding than Ackbar himself.

Since I'm figuring Lando is junior, all he has is influence and persuasion rather than authority, which is what he really needs.

Under stress, people tend to:
1) Grasp at straws (which is what Ackbar basically chose)
2) Ignore suggestions.

Roughly 50-50 at best here. Especially since the subordinate would have the added stress of screaming and trying to regain control, first over the Fleet, then coordinate with the Starfighters. The chances he'd be listening to the Starfighter Commander blubber is very poor.
"Sir! The Home One ... has blown up!"
"I can see that! Poll the Fleet. Tell them to Retreat!"
"Yes sir ... uh, sir, Lando of the Starfighters is calling on the direct freq assigned to Starfighter Command."
"Can't he see I'm busy? What does he have to say?"
"Uh, something about advancing and Han and--"
"Tell him to shut up and cover our asses as we retreat!"

They can use interdictors and related technologies/techniques to "block" hyperspace attempts (partticularily if they're within the gravity well of the moon and/or Death Star.) I might also point out that such technologies also have teh side effect of hampering ship manuverability (ref: The Phantom Affair.) and possibly couple the Death STar's own capability in that regard. And there are always tractor beams to consider as well,

The gravity well of Endor can be surmounted in a few minutes at SW acceleration speeds. They have a few Interdictors, but those things are vulnerable, especially with their gravwell projection up. A single broadside from a Star Cruiser would probably force one to drop its gravwell and put it into shields.

I might point out that its not "strictly" neccessary for the Imperials to wipe out ALL ships - wiping out most or all of their heavy ships would be a serious enough blow, and the others could be hunted down.

I'd agree that total destruction is not necessary for success.