Why use gunners?

[wautd]

Trekkies argue a lot that SW TL's arent accurate. But since they are controlled by humans, they are as accurate as the people operating them. Did we ever saw an example of TL's controlled by a computer?

[Lex]

palpatines eye?

[Vympel]

Turbolasers are not controlled by humans directly, they are computer assisted. This is evident from the OT:ICS- there is a huge control room (2-storey) behind each HTL on an ISD1.

See also the light turbolaser station on the Devastator in ANH- those weren't controlled directly by human gunners either.

I also don't see this "inaccuracy" evidence- even when *huge* guns are firing at very small targets, their accuracy is surprising, even when the target is meant to be a snubfighter.

[wautd]

I also don't see this "inaccuracy" evidence- even when *huge* guns are firing at very small targets, their accuracy is surprising, even when the target is meant to be a snubfighter.

and how about the rebel blocked runner in new hope? That wasnt very small...

Offcourse you could always say it was using ECM

[Ghost Rider]

I also don't see this "inaccuracy" evidence- even when *huge* guns are firing at very small targets, their accuracy is surprising, even when the target is meant to be a snubfighter.

and how about the rebel blocked runner in new hope? That wasnt very small...

Also remember what they were aiming for.

They wanted the ship alive so the shots were to both make them keep a very small dodging pattern as well as aim for the engine without destroy the ship.

That's an very good example of their level of precision shooting.

[Vympel]

and how about the rebel blocked runner in new hope? That wasnt very small...

Offcourse you could always say it was using ECM

All SW ships use ECM. Of course, I can't remember misses in that scene very well. How many?

[PainRack]

Turbolasers are not controlled by humans directly, they are computer assisted. This is evident from the OT:ICS- there is a huge control room (2-storey) behind each HTL on an ISD1.

See also the light turbolaser station on the Devastator in ANH- those weren't controlled directly by human gunners either.

I also don't see this "inaccuracy" evidence- even when *huge* guns are firing at very small targets, their accuracy is surprising, even when the target is meant to be a snubfighter.

Not to mention the ANH novelisation itself.

What I don't get is this. How is Vader turning knob left, right= adjusting the targeting computer.

[Connor MacLeod]

Turbolasers are not controlled by humans directly, they are computer assisted. This is evident from the OT:ICS- there is a huge control room (2-storey) behind each HTL on an ISD1.
See also the light turbolaser station on the Devastator in ANH- those weren't controlled directly by human gunners either.

The ANH novelization makes an explicit statement about the gun batteries aboard the Devastator being computerized. The human element is simply a redundancy in case of computer failure.

I also don't see this "inaccuracy" evidence- even when *huge* guns are firing at very small targets, their accuracy is surprising, even when the target is meant to be a snubfighter.

Its been well-established that those guns weren't meant to hit small fighters - the station was designed around "largge scale assault" remember.

[Tribun]

Its been well-established that those guns weren't meant to hit small fighters - the station was designed around "largge scale assault" remember.

And that they still manage to hit some fighters (best example is Porkins), shows how good their aim is.

[PainRack]

The ANH novelization makes an explicit statement about the gun batteries aboard the Devastator being computerized. The human element is simply a redundancy in case of computer failure.

I won't say its redundancy. The human is probably the last element of control over the decision to fire.

And that they still manage to hit some fighters (best example is Porkins), shows how good their aim is.

the novel states that Porkin loss of control, as well as the nice predictable flight was sufficient for the predictors to target it.

[Captain Cyran]

and how about the rebel blocked runner in new hope? That wasnt very small...

Offcourse you could always say it was using ECM

All SW ships use ECM. Of course, I can't remember misses in that scene very well. How many?

We only saw six that we now for certain were hit or miss. Five of those shots we see in the openning sequence with the Devastator in the background. All of them miss, in a row. The last shot we see that we know hit or miss was the one that took out the engines.

[Praxis]

I also don't see this "inaccuracy" evidence- even when *huge* guns are firing at very small targets, their accuracy is surprising, even when the target is meant to be a snubfighter.

and how about the rebel blocked runner in new hope? That wasnt very small...

Offcourse you could always say it was using ECM

NONE.
I haven't watched the revised edition, but in the original there were NO MISSES. There were a few shots fired offscreen, but there were NO VISIBLE MISSES that I can recall.

And btw, the Blockade Runner is the same size as the Defiant.

And isn't it ridiculous how trekkies say that? Watch "Call to Arms", where the Defiant and Rotarran (full of station evacuees) leave the station. They move in a STRAIGHT LINE, no maneuvering, right over the Dominion fleet. I counted 11 misses and NOT ONE HIT. Heck, even when the Defiant was unable to move because it was laying the minefield, several of the Jem Hadar shots (which were less than a ships length behind it, spitting distance) missed.

[Praxis]

and how about the rebel blocked runner in new hope? That wasnt very small...

Offcourse you could always say it was using ECM

All SW ships use ECM. Of course, I can't remember misses in that scene very well. How many?

We only saw six that we now for certain were hit or miss. Five of those shots we see in the openning sequence with the Devastator in the background. All of them miss, in a row. The last shot we see that we know hit or miss was the one that took out the engines.

Maybe I don't remember this right, but if I recall, the shots flew over the Tantive IV and were hidden by the engine glow- we couldn't tell if they hit or missed.
I am thinking of the original, not revised, though.

[Captain Cyran]

All SW ships use ECM. Of course, I can't remember misses in that scene very well. How many?

We only saw six that we now for certain were hit or miss. Five of those shots we see in the openning sequence with the Devastator in the background. All of them miss, in a row. The last shot we see that we know hit or miss was the one that took out the engines.

Maybe I don't remember this right, but if I recall, the shots flew over the Tantive IV and were hidden by the engine glow- we couldn't tell if they hit or missed.
I am thinking of the original, not revised, though.

I'm talking about revised version, with the Tantive in the foreground, the Devestator behind it. We see five shots fired, all five plainly miss.

EDIT: Though as I'm pretty sure someone has said, in the novel they explain that this is an effort to box the rebel ship in.

[Connor MacLeod]

I won't say its redundancy. The human is probably the last element of control over the decision to fire.

Its redundancy because each battery (or gun) has its own dedicated gunnery/targeting crews. While there are separate fire control stations for coordinating different batteries (the Pride of Yevetha in Tyrant's Test gives us an example of this) they still have the option for independent control in the case the computers get knocked out. And we further know that in ANH, the gunnery crews can operate the guns manually if need be (particularily teh smaller guns.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I also don't see this "inaccuracy" evidence- even when *huge* guns are firing at very small targets, their accuracy is surprising, even when the target is meant to be a snubfighter.

and how about the rebel blocked runner in new hope? That wasnt very small...

Offcourse you could always say it was using ECM

You mean the blockade runner they were trying to disable so they could board? You do recall those "misses" weren't off by all that great a margin, don't you? Its just as likely they were "boxing the ship" in (which is part of Imperial gunnery tactics I believe - called a "limited barrage pattern" as described in the novel "The Hutt gambit") and going for a precise, disabling hit.

And the precise reasons for capturing the ship was to find the Death Star plans, if you recall. That's why Vader had the ship so thoroughly searched rather than simply blast it ou to fthe sky (which could have been accomplished by a full-gun barrage, particularily the heavier trench guns and flank guns.)

On top of that, they couldn't risk a full-powered shot for risk of destroying the ship, which dictates lower-powered shots and less powerful guns, which further dictates that they have a more difficult time penetrating deflectors than they might normally have if they had NOT constrained their firepower (why else do you think they were firing so few guns, for that matter?)

[Praxis]

Ah, yes, I believe I recall that part...the shots were EXTREMELY close...I suspect they were either:
a) trying to scare the rebels
b) Aiming for glancing hits so none of the bleed through on the shields would damage the ship and possibly kill someone Vader wanted to capture
c) trying to box them in as stated
d) Aiming for disabling hits on equipment, and the shots just barely missed.

I think B is most likely.

[pellaeons_scion]

just out of curiosity, if the batteries are computerized, and fully operational, what do the human gunners do in the meantime?

And if they are under the control of fire control computers, does this mean that theres a chief weapons officer who controls and fires the ships weapons?

apologies if these have been covered.

[Praxis]

just out of curiosity, if the batteries are computerized, and fully operational, what do the human gunners do in the meantime?

And if they are under the control of fire control computers, does this mean that theres a chief weapons officer who controls and fires the ships weapons?

apologies if these have been covered.

They need to tell the computer what to target, and they CAN take manual control in the case of heavy jamming.

Much better system than the one weapons officer of Federation starships. If the bridge gets knocked out, the ISD can still fire, AND the ISD is capable of concentrating on more targets at once.

[pellaeons_scion]

so, would that mean that targeting selection is done from the bridge, then the orders routed to the required batteries, and then the individual battery commanders direct their guns to the target and commence firing until told to stop? or would be it be more disciplined, as in orders such as : batteries 1 through 4, target and fire for effect.

I understand the the need for the human element when theres heavy jamming though. And if the computers are disabled. What Im trying to get into my skull is how these massive vessels perform their gunnery duties. Im beginning to think as ( a bad anagloy I know) that a large ship acts like a castle, with the commander pointing out targets and the individual archers shower arrows and bolts on the target until its killed. Essentially that once the target is selected and what the commander wants done with it, the battery commanders have a fair bit of discretion about what they do after that

[Praxis]

so, would that mean that targeting selection is done from the bridge, then the orders routed to the required batteries, and then the individual battery commanders direct their guns to the target and commence firing until told to stop? or would be it be more disciplined, as in orders such as : batteries 1 through 4, target and fire for effect.

I understand the the need for the human element when theres heavy jamming though. And if the computers are disabled. What Im trying to get into my skull is how these massive vessels perform their gunnery duties. Im beginning to think as ( a bad anagloy I know) that a large ship acts like a castle, with the commander pointing out targets and the individual archers shower arrows and bolts on the target until its killed. Essentially that once the target is selected and what the commander wants done with it, the battery commanders have a fair bit of discretion about what they do after that

Yes, there is a gunner master on the bridge, and he can take direct control of any individual guns if he needs to and fire them himself from his station (as seen in Darksaber).

And yes, I assume he issues orders (remember The Bacta War?) like, guns 1-10, target fighters, 11-20, target the frigate off our port bow, missles lock on the cruiser, etc, etc.

[The Silence and I]

I suspect human gunners act as their own little isolated station--the gunners tell the computer what to shoot at. The main bridge would be responsible for coordinating all these mini command stations; otherwise you run the risk of having you ship's firepower split over random haphazard targets in a large battle. For example, in ANH it was the local gun crew that decided to let the escape pod live, the main bridge had nothing to do with the decision.

[YT300000]

EDIT: Though as I'm pretty sure someone has said, in the novel they explain that this is an effort to box the rebel ship in.

Yeah, to ensure the disabling shot hits.

Hey, that's the third time you haven't italicized something you said!