Number of Capital Ships in the Empire

[Connor MacLeod]

Source?

The BFC. I lack the qwuote, but it was started after the Katana fleet bit them in the ass.
[/quote]

"The Asset Tracking office had been set up in the wake of an intelligence failure that had nearly lead to disaster. Grand Admiral Thrawn had been the first to rediscover the more than hundred hidden Old Republic Dreadnaughts known as the Katana fleet, and had managed to seize the great majority of them bfore the New Republic caught up."

[PainRack]

Besides, the first place that would've been colonized under the GR would be places with resources and good-for-colonization worlds; by now only crap that is not desirable considering its distance and dispersive nature would have gone uncolonized. And I doubt many military juggernaughts could cultivate in such an environment.''

Its not impossible...................... A bit far-fetched perhaps, but still possible. Even in the time of the Empire, we learn that mining settlements were set up throughout the galaxy, many of them unmonitored and not under the direct control of the Empire. Furthermore, the orginal description of the UR also lists mining settlements being present. There can exist small regions of space where a interstellar power can scrape together sufficient resources to match say, the Corporate Sector fleet, especially if technology was given to them by the GR, and later, by Thrawn.

[Ender]

Well, there is the very possible 3rd possibility: That he lost the dreadnaughts in action.

They still would have shown up in the discrepency. You claiming the NRI knew about Thrawn's dreadnoughts and they got nuked between Thrawn's return and Palpatine's return, so they weren't recalled?

No. It could have happened any time between when Thrawn went out there and the Gnisnal's destruction. That is what, 5-6 years? By the time the NRI started doing fleet counts and got an OOB, they looked, and saw Thrawn had reported back that he lost them in battle. If its already marked as lost in combat, write it off the list and go on to the next ship.

We have never observed anything, and the Unknown Regions are technologically and developmentally primitive. There simply does not exist the resources to maintain an infrastructure comparable to powers in the galaxy proper. The further out from the core you go, the less high-metallicity worlds you get, by extention less resources and less habitable worlds too.

Besides, the first place that would've been colonized under the GR would be places with resources and good-for-colonization worlds; by now only crap that is not desirable considering its distance and dispersive nature would have gone uncolonized. And I doubt many military juggernaughts could cultivate in such an environment.''

So circumstancially it seems far-fetched, and we know extrinsically its based on a misinterpretation of galactic scale (ie., Zahn had the Republic/Empire occupying a single quadrant of the galaxy, and the UR the rest of the disk; someone's been watching too much Trek).

Well, one possible rationalization is that the UR aren't in the halo but in one of the surrounding dwarf galaxies. Far enough out for no one to bother, but enough there that if they had a tighter grab on their resources then the galaxy at large they could get more bang for their buck.

Very small window for them to exist but not be a discrepency in the Grisnal/NRI comparison. They must be accounted for between Thrawn's return and then destroyed before Palpatine's return to explain what happened to them. Alternatively, you can hold that they were recalled by Palpy and destroyed off-screen. I theorize this was the fate for the Star Destroyers aforementioned Thrawn brought into the UR; they had to be accounted for, and later SDs can be homegrown and thus not part of the Grisnal's records.

So they can build their own SDs there, but not build fleets able to down a star dreadnaught? Remember, quantity is its own form of quality and dreadnaughts can be brought down by a couple of cruisers and a whole lot of luck.

Objectively speaking, I don't have a problem with UR races being broadly comparable to the Yevetha. The Yevetha themselves seem to occupy a globular cluster rather close to the disk and inner bulge, hence their strategic usefulness. This makes them roughly comparable to UR groups - we already have the example of the Ssi-ruuvi as being in a globular star cluster. Anyhow, the only thing is, if groups like the UR threats are comparable to the Imperial-fleet-boosted-Yevetha and you have Empire of the Hand and Imperial expeditionary forces before that capable of maintaining superiority....these are the extreme boonies. People don't go there because its not worth the cost to do so. I'm fine with those estimates, but by implication we have yet another reason why the fleets of the galaxy proper are heavily underestimated.

Which is wrong... how?

But I'm talking to the guy with the Shep WW2/Dodonna-derived fleet guessestimate and a guy who argues with me for the Marina concept. I'm sure you don't mind one bit.

I still maintain that my esitmate is too low. Besides, Marina uses a 5:1 ratio when we know from the SE that the whole fleet makes it 20:1

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its not impossible...................... A bit far-fetched perhaps, but still possible. Even in the time of the Empire, we learn that mining settlements were set up throughout the galaxy, many of them unmonitored and not under the direct control of the Empire. Furthermore, the orginal description of the UR also lists mining settlements being present. There can exist small regions of space where a interstellar power can scrape together sufficient resources to match say, the Corporate Sector fleet, especially if technology was given to them by the GR, and later, by Thrawn.

I can accept scattered old depots and colonies and settlements which fall into disuse especially as they rotate out of the galactic arms and their resources are depleted.

I cannot accept whole regions teeming with significant space-warring powers. I'd say that no single UR power could exceed the threat of the Rebellion in the OT to explain the relative stress placed on policies regarding either group (creation of Oversectors and Priority Sectors, military build-up vs. mapping expedition).

And I'll dig up that article eventually where sociologists and astronomers and astrophysicists determined that once interstellar exploration was begun, we would colonize the galaxy in a few million years. And don't get started on Von Nuemann machines, which we know the civilization has and uses according to ItWoCSW.

Well, one possible rationalization is that the UR aren't in the halo but in one of the surrounding dwarf galaxies. Far enough out for no one to bother, but enough there that if they had a tighter grab on their resources then the galaxy at large they could get more bang for their buck.

Its possible. Saxton I believe states so as well on his website.

So they can build their own SDs there, but not build fleets able to down a star dreadnaught? Remember, quantity is its own form of quality and dreadnaughts can be brought down by a couple of cruisers and a whole lot of luck.

More than a couple; and those were some bizarre circumstances.

Which is wrong... how?

I try to give the opposition a fighting chance, Ender.

Really, though, I try for overall harmony, and sometimes I still want to preserve the spirit of the books, even if its absurdly minimalistic.

I still maintain that my esitmate is too low. Besides, Marina uses a 5:1 ratio when we know from the SE that the whole fleet makes it 20:1

Huh? Explain? What ratios? For what? What is this?

[Thanas]

Didn't the computer core contained the OoB for the Core Regions and Black Sword Command forces only?

Pg 132 of Before the Storm:

"Every warship, by name, class, callsign and commander, assigned to every fleet and combat command."

However it also says

"Information that only a ranking sector commander or one of the Emperor's own military aides would posses."

The question is now if those people knew about Thrawn and his forces. Otherwise, we have to assume the info about Thrawn's forces is not included in it.

We know that the info about the Admonitor is certainly not in the OOB. (See my above post). Why should information on any other of Thrawns forces be included in the OOB, if it doesn't mention his flagship?

Another possibility:
Before the storm does not mention that the OOB includes destroyed vessels. Maybe Thrawn reported vessels to be destroyed while they in fact only switched sides (or were maybe captured by the Empire of the Hand)?

That does not however solve the problem of the Admonitor not being mentioned in it.

[Ender]

More than a couple; and those were some bizarre circumstances.

At Endor it was what, a dozen? At Dathomir it was about the same.

I try to give the opposition a fighting chance, Ender.

Fair play is for sissies.

Really, though, I try for overall harmony, and sometimes I still want to preserve the spirit of the books, even if its absurdly minimalistic.

The EU says it was horribly undermilaterized, further evidence of that would be supporting the EU in my mind.

Huh? Explain? What ratios? For what? What is this?

In determining the number of ships larger then heavy destroyers, Marina says that since the ratio of destroyers to large ships in Death Squadron was 5:1 she assumed that to get the 5,000 large ship estimate for the navy. However, in the novel and SE, when Vader rallys his forces it is 20 support ships. Unless those are local things.

[Illuminatus Primus]

At Endor it was what, a dozen? At Dathomir it was about the same.

Over a dozen, and they had ramships/fireships. And Piett was not to engage them. And it was after Palpy's death, so they lost their Force cohesion too.

EDIT: And there were over sixty Hapan Battle Dragons plus some Star Destroyers that arrived at Dathomir; that was the size of the Hapan negotiation force.

The EU says it was horribly undermilaterized, further evidence of that would be supporting the EU in my mind.

The NR?

In determining the number of ships larger then heavy destroyers, Marina says that since the ratio of destroyers to large ships in Death Squadron was 5:1 she assumed that to get the 5,000 large ship estimate for the navy. However, in the novel and SE, when Vader rallys his forces it is 20 support ships. Unless those are local things.

"Twenty battleship" commanders. The novelisations play fast and hard with naval terminology, so take that as you may. You have that TESB arcade game Star Battleship (Saxton lists it as Star Battleship #2), and then nineteen other ships. So you're talking one Star Dreadnought, one Star Battleship and perhaps nineteen Star Destroyers (EU sources place a Vic there). That 2:19, therefore.

Perhaps the organization in modified superiority fleets was: 1 Executor + 5 ISDs, 6 ISDs, 1 SBB + 5 ISDs, and then some superiority forces and whatnot containing probably a couple Vics and an ISD.

And doesn't that just deflate the number of big ships? We don't have a fixed number for the big ships, so it doesn't inflate the smaller ships.

You arguing Marina's numbers are too big?

[Connor MacLeod]

The Gnisnal Order of Battle was supposedly "complete", but also ten years out of date (which at this timeframe, suggests it was "recent" as of two years after Endor.) - it would not account for vessels coming AFTER that timeframe.

Moreover, its questionable how much asset tracking was done or retained in the aftermath of Thrawn's defeat and the resurgence of the Empire, so a small number of dreadnoughts could easily have slipped notice or been forgotten.

Lastly, its not as if asset tracking is a simple task or one that they performed perfectly. In fact, the novel "Assault on Selonia" includes a demonstrable statement by an NRI agent about the extreme difficulty in asset tracking (to explain why they had no way to be certain whether the rebel forces in the Corellian sector had any warships, or how many they did have.) - in fact, it was demonstrated by the fact they knew nothing of the Saccorian Triad's fleet up until it appeared in the very last novel.

EDIT: It is quite possible or even probable that any warships Thrawn had stashed away in the Unknown Regions were not officially part of the Imperial OOB - there is no reason to believe Palpatine would let everyone know where EVERY warship he had is

[PainRack]

I cannot accept whole regions teeming with significant space-warring powers. I'd say that no single UR power could exceed the threat of the Rebellion in the OT to explain the relative stress placed on policies regarding either group (creation of Oversectors and Priority Sectors, military build-up vs. mapping expedition).

The inadequacies of human history aside, there are parallels. Despite the knowledge of New Guinea and from there, Australia, the Japanese nor the Chinese never maintained maps of that region at all.

More importantly, any of the local powers in the Far East, like the Johor Riau empire, Siam, maintained navies that would had posed a challenge to the tang fleet, even though the Tang fleet was vastly superior in numbers and technology, and could draw upon the large resources of the hinterland.

Independent colonisation of the Unknown Region(to escape the rule of the GR or any other reason) would had brought forth the technical knowledge of the GR into the area. A naval squadron of a few frigates with several cruisers and destroyers would had been sufficient to damage Iron Fist and any of her equivalents.

And I'll dig up that article eventually where sociologists and astronomers and astrophysicists determined that once interstellar exploration was begun, we would colonize the galaxy in a few million years. And don't get started on Von Nuemann machines, which we know the civilization has and uses according to ItWoCSW.

But how many would remain under the control of Earth, or given the technical abilities of the SWGE, how many would Earth even know of? There remains countless mining settlements in the Galactic Empire itself that the central authority doesn't know of, not to mention smugglers camps and etc etc etc.