Crown wrote:
Having seen what Obi-Wan is capable of (TPM, AotC), the stormtroopers wouldn't have prevented an obstical to him, hello we just arrived to our starting point.
That doesn't change what Obi-Wan was thinking when he saw the Stormtroopers come. It is uncontradicted canon, you've got to accept it.
Why would you assume that Obi-Wan never making Vader retreat = to him getting punk'd by Vader? Look as much as Bob Brown 'lost the plot' on SW, his analysis of the OT was flawless, Obi-Wan could have kept Vader at bay all day if he wanted to.
His opinion is not canon. The novelization is. Obi-Wan's powers were weak and Vader was manhandling him about the place every which way.
Obi-Wan wasn't trying to escape (we know this from Vader), and it was Obi-Wan who took the fight to the landing bay distracting the stormtroopers allowing the others to make a run for it.
That he wasn't trying to escape has no bearing whatsoever on his ability to beat Vader. We know for a fact that he wanted Vader dead. He couldn't do it, and gave up. He knew he was going to die on the Death Star- look at his farewell to Luke at the gantry above the hangar bay.
Despite Vader 'pushing him around', Obi-Wan was still clearly not in danger. Escape wasn't in Obi-Wan's plan, getting Luke and the others off the DS was.
It doesn't matter- that doesn't tell us anything about him being able to beat Vader- which he clearly lacks.
Wow. So Vader destroying everything that Anakin stood for doesn't count for anything because Obi-Wan was speaking figuratively? You'll notice Luke didn't throw a hissy-fit at Obi-Wan when he explained his stance. I find it odd that you'd take more offence at something than the person purportedly being lied to.
Because Luke is basically a Jedi Knight at that point (not big on the anger) and has already thrown his hissy fit in TESB. Luke taking offence is immaterial, Obi-Wan was still lying through his teeth and dressed it up after the lie was uncovered. Vader destroying what Anakin stood for does *not* equal "betrayed and murdered your father". It's just spin.
No it isn't a rebuttle. I asked if you honestly believed that the feats that Obi-Wan accomplished as a Padawan in TPM (jumping 30 odd feet into the air) were due to his muscles, or his mastery of the Force. I asked because that despite Yoda walking with a limp all throughout the movies we showed what mastery of the Force can achieve in AotC (unless you think Yoda was 'in his prime' at 880 but not 900). You haven't refuted this point, this bizare point I will point out.
I thought I had already mentioned it before, but in the RotS novelization we see Dooku's thoughts during his final duel- he's "not a young man" anymore and has to end the fight quickly. So yes, age and fitness clearly does have something to do with a force-users ability to fight. And Yoda is far more powerful than Obi-Wan, canon fact (Yoda's own words by implication in RotS) and is also a different species. See Yoda's admission that he is
old and weak in RotJ for more evidence that age plays a part.
But as I said, precisely what was happening to Obi-Wan doesn't matter- his powers were weak, for whatever reason.
Take it another way, can Vader still jump around like Anakin did prior to the cybernetics, or is he too 'past his prime'.
Unknown- his cybernetics and increased bulk may make such acrobatics less feasible.
I'm focusing on what we see on screen - which the novelisation doesn't accurately discribe.
The movie does not contradict the novel on that point. It provides us with much needed context as to Vader's "your powers are weak, old man" comment in the film.
We see Obi-Wan hold off Vader, we see him giving up after he sees Luke has basically reached the Falcon. We see him smile at Vader (who stands there like a stunned mullet), and allow himself to be cut down.
This means nothing. He clearly couldn't beat Vader, otherwise he would've.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your analogy properly, but I'll try to respond to the last sentence as best I can.
In WoW, the highest level Horde players will "gank" lower level Alliance players, and vice versa. Usually several hits will kill you, and your own hits with far inferior weapons and stats will have little effect. The best thing to do is just die quickly and get it over with. Just because I don't fight them doens't mean I could've beaten them.
No. He gave up because he had achieved his goals. He had deactivated the tractor beam, he had held Vader back and caught the attention of the Stormtroopers allowing Luke and co to escape, the rest just goes on to prove what a manipulative bastard he was, he knew his death wouldn't the end of him, and that he could continue to guide Luke to his ultimate destiny (destroying the Emperor). Vader falsely believed it was his victory.
Destroying Vader was one of Obi-Wan's goals- one we know for a fact he couldn't achieve for himself, otherwise he would've done it. He did not catch the attention of the stormtroopers on purpose, see the novelization. They trapped him.
Maybe he didn't want to? Ever thought of that?
He obviously wanted to, hence him exhorting Luke to do so. Difference is Luke could do what he couldn't.
Or are you suggesting the fact that Yoda didn't show up at some point between RotS and ANH to destroy Vader that he couldn't?
Yoda thought it safer to wait until the Skywalkers were brought to them for training. Logical, since Sidious could clearly kick Yoda's ass, and Yoda knew it- no sense in revealing your presence to Sidious by trying to assasinate Vader, even if he could somehow get there.
Also I see you applying some funky logic with that reasoning, let me rephrase; I am doubtful that Vader could beat Obi-Wan, the fact that he couldn't defeat a supposedly 'weakened' Obi-Wan on the DS until Obi-Wan just gave up lends further to that.
Except for the fact the novelization describes Obi-Wan as clearly being at a disadvantage, and Obi-Wan was being beaten around the room every which way making no progress. Obi-Wan couldn't beat Vader.
Oh Jesus. This is ridiculous. You are taking Vader's statement (and a novelisation about the fight that doesn't match what we see on screen)
Not how canon contradictions work. You don't throw out every single facet of a scene in the novel simply because it differs in an irrelevant respect. If it worked that way, we could throw out the entire Battle of Endor description in RotJ simply because
Executor didn't get rammed in the bridge.
and applying some nice circular logic to prove that Obi-Wan is weaker. How do we know Obi-Wan is weaker? Because Vader says he's weaker.
No, because Vader says he's weaker and the novelization describes what's happening to him, and his thought at being trapped by Vader and the stormtroopers. This is all uncontradicted canon. Appealing to the ability of a younger, faster Obi-Wan is specious at best.
How does Vader know Obi-Wan is weaker? Because Obi-Wan is weaker.
As per the canon.
No matter what, but Vader didn't strike Obi-Wan down until Obi-Wan let him, that speaks volumes, even if you don't want to admit it.
It does speak volumes- it confirms that Obi-Wan was stuffed and couldn't beat Vader. All he did was hasten the inevitable.
I mean how can you, with a straight face even, say; Obi-Wan was trapped (and he knew it) and let Vader cut him down proving that Vader was stronger? Do you know how moronic that sounds? If Vader was stronger he would have cut him by himself, he wouldn't need Obi-Wan to let him. And yet, he clearly did.
He clearly "needed" Obi-Wan to give up? From whence do you get that? If Obi-Wan was stronger (an absurd claim given what we know- Lucas has stated himself that post-suit Vader is 80% the strength of the Emperor and Obi-Wan isn't anywhere near powerful enough to face the Emperor per Yoda in RotS) he could've beaten Vader and escaped with Luke & Co. Obi-Wan letting Vader kills him just lets us know Obi-Wan gave up out of hopelessness and took the next best thing.
