Mace Windu's character development in ROTS (Spoilers!!!)

[Publius]

Well we have to keep in mind Mace's shatterpoint ability (if you are an EU fan that is) So it's likely Mace knew something was up with Palpatine and the information provided by Anakin was the final piece to the puzzle. For all we know there is a law on the books outlawing the Sith. So perhaps they were arresting Palpatine on those charges. After Sidious killed the other three Jedi so easily and dueled with Mace, Mace realized he was far to dangerous to just arrest.

Windu's shatterpoint ability told him only that the Supreme Chancellor was the critical fulcrum about which the fate of the galaxy pivoted. It told him that the connection between the Supreme Chancellor and Skywalker and Kenobi was run through with the dark side of the Force. The shatterpoint ability did not, for example, tell him that the Supreme Chancellor should be arrested if he did not resign his emergency powers, the fact that the Senate recently saw fit to expand them notwithstanding.

Mace was not intending to arrest him at all UNLESS Palpatine refused to set down the powers that were given to him ONLY for as long as the current war lasted.

When did the Jedi become the arbiters of Republic law? When did the Jedi gain the right to pass judgement on the Senate and the Supreme Chancellor? When did the Jedi gain the right to overturn the Senate's decisions in favor of their own musings? Do recall that Kenobi mentioned that the Senate was expected to vote to increase the Supreme Chancellor's executive powers. The Jedi had absolutely no right to demand that the Supreme Chancellor resign authority lawfully given to him by the Senate, especially given that the Senate did not see fit to rescind the emergency powers resolution.

The emergency powers were the Senate's prerogative, not the Jedi's. The Jedi did not like the Senate's decision, so they made plans to force the Senate's presiding officer out of power and to seize control of the Senate. Regardless of whether or not one agrees with their motives, this is a coup d'état. The Jedi were plotting to overthrow the government and replace it with their own direct control, even if only for a transitional period.

Mace Windu and his cohort had absolutely no right to arrest the Supreme Chancellor for refusing to resign his emergency powers. It is the Senate's prerogative to decide when the emergency powers are no longer necessary, not the Jedi's. In deciding to force the Supreme Chancellor to resign his emergency powers or remove him from office, the Jedi had already committed to a coup, as they had no right to do either.

It should be noted that when Finis Valorum was suspected of misuse of official power in Cloak of Deception, he was investigated by the Internal Activities Committee and summoned before the Supreme Court. Of course, it should also be noted that the Jedi had a good relationship with Finis Valorum, and generally agreed with his politics.

Once the general was killed the war was effectively over and the powers granted by the senate purely for the war were no longer needed.

That is for the Senate to decide, not for the Jedi. The Senate was expected to increase the Supreme Chancellor's authority, just as the Senate granted the Supreme Chancellor his emergency powers in the first place. Kenobi himself claimed that the Jedi serve the Senate; where is the Jedi's respect for the Senate's decisions? If the Jedi serve the Senate, why were their leaders plotting to overthrow the leader of a Senate supermajority and seize control of the Senate?

The answer, of course, is that the Jedi realized that the Senate simply would not vote the way they wanted. They did not appeal to the Senate or abide by its decisions because the Senate was controlled by the Supreme Chancellor's party. Essentially the Jedi disregarded democracy as soon as it became clear that they wouldn't win anymore votes.

Ki-Adi-Mundi himself remarked during their conference, "Palpatine's dictatorship has been legitimized – and can be legalized, even enshrined in a revised Constitution – by the supermajority he controls in the Senate." The Jedi decided that if the Supreme Chancellor would not resign his power himself, they would overthrow him and his party in the Senate (which happens to be a supermajority, a concept which should not be taken lightly when dealing with a large and fractious legislature), on the grounds that they would not see the matter the way the Jedi would like it to be seen.

Once Mace learned that Palpatine was a Sith Lord this changed completely. At that point he would be arrested for no other reason than being a sith lord.

When Windu told the Supreme Chancellor he was under arrest (in his words) on the charge of being a Sith Lord, his response was interesting in and of itself: "Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact – the last time I read the Constitution, anyway – we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So ask you again: what is my alleged crime?"

Although it does come from the Supreme Chancellor himself, there is nothing to refute his claim regarding the Constitution and his status as a Sith Lord. For argument's sake, however, let us assume that the Supreme Chancellor was exaggerating, and it is indeed a crime to be a Sith Lord; what proof have the Jedi got? They had only evidence pointing to Lord Sidious's existence in Labyrinth of Evil, no evidence at all regarding his activities and his identity. They had only Anakin Skywalker's word that he was a Sith Lord, and no evidence of any wrongdoing.

They are not. Being the Darth Sidious known at this stage to be the puppet master of the Seperatists however, is a crime. Grievous BDZed several core worlds when under Sidious' command. That's several trillion murders there.

There is no question that Palpatine of Naboo/Darth Sidious was guilty of treason, as well as all four "Nürnberg crimes" of conspiracy to commit crimes against peace, planning, initiating, and waging wars of aggression, war crimes, and crimes against sapience, to which may be added misuse of privileged information, official corruption, bribery, and collusion with corporate interests. If being a Sith Lord in and of itself is not a criminal act, his conduct throughout the past twenty years certainly was.

The problem is that the Jedi could prove none of these things; indeed, they did not even know of them until their plans were already set in motion. They had no evidence at all that Supreme Chancellor Palpatine was Lord Sidious, only Skywalker's word, and certainly did not know that he was when they made plans to force him to resign his Senate-granted powers or be removed from office.

One cannot tack on the removal of a Sith Lord to justify Windu's cloister coup, because Windu himself did not know that when he was planning it. It is no exaggeration to say that Windu was doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons. He was prepared to remove the Supreme Chancellor from office before he knew he was a Sith Lord, and he was also prepared to kill an unarmed opponent because he did not believe the Senate and courts would see things the way he would like them to be seen. Indeed, it is somewhat telling that Windu tried to use the same justification that Lord Sidious himself did for Lord Tyranus's killing: "He was too dangerous to be allowed to live."

[CDiehl]

It is true that Windu was acting on flimsy evidence, and he really should have made sure he had far better evidence before he acted, if only to put some degree of legality on his actions. However, if he had successfully arrested Palpatine and had an airtight treason case, to whom would he present that evidence? Who in the Republic is not in the Chancellor's pocket? The Senate that he's been controlling for years? The courts that he'd probably been stuffing with his supporters? I don't think the press or the public are that hostile to Palpatine, and his supporters could easily spin the attempt to try him in the midst of a war as traitorous.

As for the arrest, I think that was for the sake of form. Windu had to try to arrest him, though I don't think he had any illusions that Palpatine would come along peacefully. I don't think the Jedi bring Sith in for trial, because who could try them and be expected to give a fair verdict? Juries of Jedi or Sith would be prejudiced, there are no ordinary Force users, and a jury of regular citizens can be manipulated by the defendant. It would have been far better if the Jedi had waited and got their evidence together to present after Palpatine was gone, then took the consequences for their relationship with the Republic, but they probably didn't think they had time to wait while a Sith Lord sat in the big chair.

Finally, I'd like to think Windu went into the arrest/fight with the Chancellor believing he was right and this was a necessary act, but willing to take the consequences of that choice. Even if he had a mountain of evidence to present, he would still be responsible for killing him and would have to pay the price.

[RogueIce]

Y'know, Mace was going in to arrest Palpatine no matter what the guy did. I mean, even he admitted earlier he didn't take Anakin at face value that he was a Sith Lord ("If your information proves to be true" or words to that effect). Nor did he even give him a chance to hand back the power. He went straight in, ignited sabers, and told Palpy he was under arrest.

So, in this light, I think Palpatine was wholly correct when he said, "So it's treason then."

And I wonder if Palpatine let himself be scarred like he did (instead of stopping the lightning before he melted himself) so that he would have that much more of a convincing argument to show to the Senate (leaving out that he was technically the source of the scarring, of course), and also giving him the good ol' "courage points" which he difinately did with the "They may have scarred me but my resolve is as strong as ever!" line.

[Admiral Valdemar]

And I wonder if Palpatine let himself be scarred like he did (instead of stopping the lightning before he melted himself) so that he would have that much more of a convincing argument to show to the Senate (leaving out that he was technically the source of the scarring, of course), and also giving him the good ol' "courage points" which he difinately did with the "They may have scarred me but my resolve is as strong as ever!" line.

Was I the only one thinking Victor Yushenko then as well?

[MrAnderson]

This does lead to the question of whether or not the Jedi have gotten it into the laws of the Republic that the study of Sith teachings is a crime unto itself.

They are not. Being the Darth Sidious known at this stage to be the puppet master of the Seperatists however, is a crime. Grievous BDZed several core worlds when under Sidious' command. That's several trillion murders there.

What source is this from?

[kheegster]

Y'know, Mace was going in to arrest Palpatine no matter what the guy did. I mean, even he admitted earlier he didn't take Anakin at face value that he was a Sith Lord ("If your information proves to be true" or words to that effect). Nor did he even give him a chance to hand back the power. He went straight in, ignited sabers, and told Palpy he was under arrest.

So, in this light, I think Palpatine was wholly correct when he said, "So it's treason then."

And I wonder if Palpatine let himself be scarred like he did (instead of stopping the lightning before he melted himself) so that he would have that much more of a convincing argument to show to the Senate (leaving out that he was technically the source of the scarring, of course), and also giving him the good ol' "courage points" which he difinately did with the "They may have scarred me but my resolve is as strong as ever!" line.

I personally think he's 'scarring' is a bit too regular to be the result of the lightning... Luke gets hit by Force Lightning as well in ROTJ but he didn't seem to be significantly disfigured by it. Perhaps Sidious had been concealing his appearance all along and decided to go without it afterwards?

[Alyrium Denryle]

When did the Jedi become the arbiters of Republic law? When did the Jedi gain the right to pass judgement on the Senate and the Supreme Chancellor? When did the Jedi gain the right to overturn the Senate's decisions in favor of their own musings? Do recall that Kenobi mentioned that the Senate was expected to vote to increase the Supreme Chancellor's executive powers. The Jedi had absolutely no right to demand that the Supreme Chancellor resign authority lawfully given to him by the Senate, especially given that the Senate did not see fit to rescind the emergency powers resolution.

The emergency powers were the Senate's prerogative, not the Jedi's. The Jedi did not like the Senate's decision, so they made plans to force the Senate's presiding officer out of power and to seize control of the Senate. Regardless of whether or not one agrees with their motives, this is a coup d'état. The Jedi were plotting to overthrow the government and replace it with their own direct control, even if only for a transitional period.

Mace Windu and his cohort had absolutely no right to arrest the Supreme Chancellor for refusing to resign his emergency powers. It is the Senate's prerogative to decide when the emergency powers are no longer necessary, not the Jedi's. In deciding to force the Supreme Chancellor to resign his emergency powers or remove him from office, the Jedi had already committed to a coup, as they had no right to do either.

It should be noted that when Finis Valorum was suspected of misuse of official power in Cloak of Deception, he was investigated by the Internal Activities Committee and summoned before the Supreme Court. Of course, it should also be noted that the Jedi had a good relationship with Finis Valorum, and generally agreed with his politics.

The Jedi, like it or not do have some form of executive power. They serve as peacekeapers, diplomats, and generals in the army. Their function is to protect the republic and part of that, considering the fact that there have been several wars in which the sith invaded the republic etc etc is probably hunting down and neutralizing the sith. They have the right to police force users, it is, at least logically and most likely, a part of their mandate.

They are acting as an independant branch of government in that regard methinks, so the republic government has four branches of government rather than three.

That is for the Senate to decide, not for the Jedi. The Senate was expected to increase the Supreme Chancellor's authority, just as the Senate granted the Supreme Chancellor his emergency powers in the first place. Kenobi himself claimed that the Jedi serve the Senate; where is the Jedi's respect for the Senate's decisions? If the Jedi serve the Senate, why were their leaders plotting to overthrow the leader of a Senate supermajority and seize control of the Senate?

If the republic had been compromised by a sith lord, it is probably in the Jedi's mandate that they neutralize said with lord. Seeing as it has been the Jedi's function to defend against the sith for thousands of years it is only logical that different laws and regulations would go into place in that situation.

When Windu told the Supreme Chancellor he was under arrest (in his words) on the charge of being a Sith Lord, his response was interesting in and of itself: "Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact – the last time I read the Constitution, anyway – we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So ask you again: what is my alleged crime?"

Typical sith twist. Religion is one issue, but being a sith lord, and inherenly evil and dangerous, is a completely different matter. Once again, different laws probably come into effect.

Although it does come from the Supreme Chancellor himself, there is nothing to refute his claim regarding the Constitution and his status as a Sith Lord. For argument's sake, however, let us assume that the Supreme Chancellor was exaggerating, and it is indeed a crime to be a Sith Lord; what proof have the Jedi got? They had only evidence pointing to Lord Sidious's existence in Labyrinth of Evil, no evidence at all regarding his activities and his identity. They had only Anakin Skywalker's word that he was a Sith Lord, and no evidence of any wrongdoing.

They could probably prove that he was a sith lord post-mortem through the security videos of the fight. What with palpatine wielding a lightsaber and all

The problem is that the Jedi could prove none of these things; indeed, they did not even know of them until their plans were already set in motion. They had no evidence at all that Supreme Chancellor Palpatine was Lord Sidious, only Skywalker's word, and certainly did not know that he was when they made plans to force him to resign his Senate-granted powers or be removed from office.

See above security videos. Had they suceeded, they had established that a sith lord was responsible for the war, and seeing as there are only two... the use of the security videos could establish that palpatine was indeed a sith

[Publius]

The Jedi, like it or not do have some form of executive power. They serve as peacekeapers, diplomats, and generals in the army. Their function is to protect the republic and part of that, considering the fact that there have been several wars in which the sith invaded the republic etc etc is probably hunting down and neutralizing the sith. They have the right to police force users, it is, at least logically and most likely, a part of their mandate.

They are acting as an independant branch of government in that regard methinks, so the republic government has four branches of government rather than three.

They are not an independent branch of the government. They answer to the Judicial Department, which is subordinate to the Office of the Supreme Chancellor, and they require authorization from the Senate to intervene in Republic affairs (hence, Supreme Chancellor Valorum asked Senator Palpatine to introduce a motion authorizing the Jedi to become involved in the Eriadu trade summit in Cloak of Deception). It is notable that all of the functions you mentioned – peacekeeping, diplomacy, and command of military forces – belong to the executive power, i.e., the Supreme Chancellor's government. Indeed, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous establishes that Master Yoda was Military Attaché to the Supreme Chancellor, a function which Master Windu assumed in Yoda's absence. They are most certainly not a separate or equal counterpart to th e Supreme Chancellor's government, the Senate, or the Supreme Court.

The Jedi Order's status as the Republic's quasi-established church does not entitle it to arrogate the powers of the supreme authorities of the Republic. They are unambiguously subordinate to the Senate, and as such have no right to judge its acts. This includes special dispensations to remain in office past the expiry of one's term, and grants of emergency powers.

If the republic had been compromised by a sith lord, it is probably in the Jedi's mandate that they neutralize said with lord. Seeing as it has been the Jedi's function to defend against the sith for thousands of years it is only logical that different laws and regulations would go into place in that situation.

It is your assumption that some sort of special state of emergency exists in the event of a Sith Lord. There is no evidence of any kind supporting this idea, as none of the characters make any reference to any such concept. A cult with an unfortunate habit of creating power-hungry genocidal psychopaths does not easily invite being given dictatorial powers. Is it not also logical that the Jedi Order should be suppressed, given the catastrophic damage its dissident students have caused (e.g., the Old Sith War, the New Sith Wars)? As Thomas Paine once noted, what good is a protector who very frequently only protects one from the protector's own enemies? What great good is it to say that one has solved a problem that one created oneself?

Typical sith twist. Religion is one issue, but being a sith lord, and inherenly evil and dangerous, is a completely different matter. Once again, different laws probably come into effect.

"Inherently evil and dangerous" is the Jedi Order's opinion. Can you demonstrate to a court of law that an adherent of one cult is "inherently evil and dangerous"? Being a Sith Lord is not the same thing as being a war criminal. Lord Sidious's crime was not that he was a Sith Lord; that offends only the Jedi's religious sensibilities, which are not the same thing as Republic law, the Jedi Order's apparent wishes to the contrary notwithstanding. Lord Sidious's crimes were treason, conspiracy against peace, conspiracy to wage aggressive war, war crimes, and crimes against sapience. These are separate and distinct from being a Sith Lord.

And it is noteworthy that the Jedi Order had evidence of none of these things. When Mace Windu planned his cloister coup, he knew only that he thought the time had come for the Supreme Chancellor to resign the extraordinary powers the Senate had given him – notwithstanding the fact that the Senate did not agree. He was already on his way to launch his coup when Skywalker told him that the Supreme Chancellor was a Sith Lord.

They could probably prove that he was a sith lord post-mortem through the security videos of the fight. What with palpatine wielding a lightsaber and all

There were no security holos of the fight. The only recording was the audio recording that Lord Sidious made at the beginning, and which he deliberately stopped just as he killed Saesee Tiin.

Furthermore, consider for a moment the implications of your argument that a coup d'état is justifiable provided that one finds evidence justifying it after the fact. Wrongful arrest may be justified by finding evidence after the fact. Would you argue that wrongful arrest may be justified by searching for legitimating evidence after the rights of the arrested have already been violated?

See above security videos. Had they suceeded, they had established that a sith lord was responsible for the war, and seeing as there are only two... the use of the security videos could establish that palpatine was indeed a sith

Would you argue that it is acceptable for an established church to overthrow and kill a duly elected head of state, seize control of a lawfully constituted legislature, and then justify this by proving via autopsy that the head of state was a heretic? The issue is not that he was a Sith Lord, the issue was the war crimes he had committed, none of which they could prove. They had only one piece of evidence that Lord Sidious even existed at all; they had none at all regarding his activities. It is not enough to prove that he was a Sith Lord; they must prove his crimes, none of which they even knew about.

And even if they could prove conclusively all of his crimes after they had killed him, this would change not one iota the fact that they had planned and launched their coup with the express intent of forcing a politician whom they did not like to resign his lawfully given extraordinary powers despite the express consent of the Senate, or to remove him from the office to which he had been duly elected by the Senate, a Senate to which they are subordinate. No amount of proof of his crimes and religion can change the fact that the Jedi were perfectly willing to undertake a coup d'état against him when all they knew was that he had emergency powers and they didn't like his policies.

As has been said before, the Jedi would have been right to overthrow Palpatine of Naboo, because he was an extremely dangerous war criminal. That is not why they tried to overthrow him, however. They tried to overthrow him when they thought him a distasteful politician. Ki-Adi-Mundi and Mace Windu weren't talking about killing Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith, because he had orchestrated a tragicomedy of war to kill billions and seize power in the galaxy. They were talking about forcing Palpatine of Naboo, Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, to resign emergency powers because they didn't think he needed them anymore (never mind the opinion of the Senate). Simply put, they committed treason, not knowing at the time that he had already done so, too.

This does not change the fact that it would have been better for everyone involved had Windu succeeded. But it does confirm that Mace Windu is not an admirable Jedi, being a petty, spiteful, suspicious would-be tyrant who was more than willing to violate Republic law and the Jedi Code because he didn't like a politician. The fact that he died at the hands of a prodigy whom he'd deliberately insulted, humiliated, and distrusted, and a politician whom he'd plotted to overthrow, is perhaps a sad commentary on the state of the Jedi Order itself, given his exalted reputation within that cult.

[Faqa]

I would also like to point out that Mace Windu suffers from a severe lack of "people skills".

Strike 1: Let's humiliate Anakin in front of the entire fucking council by telling him he's not going to be a Master. No need to be diplomatic and bring up the issue later, no, why should anyone do that?

Strike 2: After Anakin turns over his friend and mentor to you because HE TRUSTS YOU AND YOUR TEACHINGS, Do you show trust back? Do you show gratitude? Nope. You immediatly express distrust in his word(Saying "IF this is true", as though Anakin would make that up) and in his loyalty(not letting him come, an obvious show that you don't trust which side he's on). There's this thing called "subtlety", Windu. Heard of it?

Strike 3: Let's see, Palpy's trying to convince Anakin that you're trying to assasinate him, so what's your next move? Assasinate him and arrogantly assume Anakin will just stay back. You're a star, Mace.

And yer OUT!!!

Seriously, this man has no regard for other people, their feelings, their behavior. He seems to assume either his lightsaber, his teachings or his rank will get him through anything. How other people act and react is irrelevant. He's right, he's strong, he'll do what he wants. Something of a sociopath, I believe the term is.

I'd say he's the Order's Maul. Top-notch fighter, but otherwise severely lacking.

[Petrosjko]

I would also like to point out that Mace Windu suffers from a severe lack of "people skills".

Strike 1: Let's humiliate Anakin in front of the entire fucking council by telling him he's not going to be a Master. No need to be diplomatic and bring up the issue later, no, why should anyone do that?

Strike 2: After Anakin turns over his friend and mentor to you because HE TRUSTS YOU AND YOUR TEACHINGS, Do you show trust back? Do you show gratitude? Nope. You immediatly express distrust in his word(Saying "IF this is true", as though Anakin would make that up) and in his loyalty(not letting him come, an obvious show that you don't trust which side he's on). There's this thing called "subtlety", Windu. Heard of it?

Strike 3: Let's see, Palpy's trying to convince Anakin that you're trying to assasinate him, so what's your next move? Assasinate him and arrogantly assume Anakin will just stay back. You're a star, Mace.

And yer OUT!!!

Seriously, this man has no regard for other people, their feelings, their behavior. He seems to assume either his lightsaber, his teachings or his rank will get him through anything. How other people act and react is irrelevant. He's right, he's strong, he'll do what he wants. Something of a sociopath, I believe the term is.

I'd say he's the Order's Maul. Top-notch fighter, but otherwise severely lacking.

For the most part, he followed the Jedi code to the T, which was his problem. He thought nothing of slapping Anakin down becaue he himself would accept correction with grace from a superior. He thought nothing of sending Anakin to spy on Palpatine because he himself avoided attachments, barring his attachment to the Republic itself.

He was the epitome of the flaws of the Jedi Order as developed philosophically by Yoda. Blind and arrogant.

[Fire Fly]

Anyone else see how Palpatine is Caesar and the Jedi are Brutus, Cassius, et al.?

[Currald]

For the most part, he followed the Jedi code to the T, which was his problem. He thought nothing of slapping Anakin down becaue he himself would accept correction with grace from a superior. He thought nothing of sending Anakin to spy on Palpatine because he himself avoided attachments, barring his attachment to the Republic itself.

He was the epitome of the flaws of the Jedi Order as developed philosophically by Yoda. Blind and arrogant.

Well, exactly. "IF, Anakin, you're a TRUE Jedi, you won't mind betraying a friend. Because Jedi don't HAVE friends, Jedi don't HAVE wives, and Jedi don't HAVE loyalty. If my actions bother you, then you aren't a TRUE Jedi anyway."

Of course, he STILL shouldn't have killed an unarmed opponent, any more than Anakin should have killed Darth Tyrannus.

I further suggest that while Palpatine SAID that Anakin should kill Tyrannus because he was "too dangerous," what he MEANT was that he was "too weak." "If Skywalker can defeat you, Lord Tyrannus, then you are of no use to to me. I will have a new apprentice, one who is worthy." He basically did the same thing in Return of the Jedi, when Luke had Vader on the ropes.

[Stravo]

In defense of Mace Windu's blunt treatment of Anakin in that arrest scene when he tells them to stay in the temple, people are conveninetly forgetting another part of the exchange.

"I sense much confusion in you it will cloud your judgment." Mace was covering his ass. The force was warning him that Anakin might backstab him in his confusion so he did the best thing that he could, keep Anakin out of the figthing altoegther. He may not have been as diplomatic as he could be but this is Mace Windu, hardly the silver tongued Jedi. Another instance where following orders would have saved everyone alot of grief. Those damned Skywalkers and their issues with authority.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well we have to keep in mind Mace's shatterpoint ability (if you are an EU fan that is) So it's likely Mace knew something was up with Palpatine and the information provided by Anakin was the final piece to the puzzle. For all we know there is a law on the books outlawing the Sith. So perhaps they were arresting Palpatine on those charges. After Sidious killed the other three Jedi so easily and dueled with Mace, Mace realized he was far to dangerous to just arrest.

The shatterpoint ability is mentioned in the novellisation several times.

[NecronLord]

What source is this from?

Sidious leading the seperatists is of course from the movies.

The BDZ bit is from the EP3 ICS.

Under the command of the bloodthirsty General Grievous, Invisible Hand has played a key role in many of the Seperatist cyborg's most notorious forays into the Galactic Core. These include the release of the Loedorvian Brain Plague that slew Republic clone armies and nearly every human in the Weemell Sector. The ship was also used to supervise naval atacks on 26 strategic Loyalist worlds. These included the hour long orbital bombardment that depopulated and melted the crust of the former city-planet of Humbarine, an ancient founding word of the Republic.

That's a few trillion deaths to charge Palpatine for...

[Publius]

That's a few trillion deaths to charge Palpatine for...

While there is no question of Lord Sidious's guilt in these matters, is there any evidence? Or would the Jedi be reduced to using the Nürnburg "standard" of evidence? How did the Jedi mean to justify their coup d'état? Is there even necessarily any physiological evidence that could prove Lord Sidious's Sith identity in the event of his death? Did the Jedi have any sort of plan at all, or did they simply mean to overthrow the government and bluff their way through the political fallout by means of Jedi moral authority?

[Perinquus]

In defense of Mace Windu's blunt treatment of Anakin in that arrest scene when he tells them to stay in the temple, people are conveninetly forgetting another part of the exchange.

"I sense much confusion in you it will cloud your judgment." Mace was covering his ass. The force was warning him that Anakin might backstab him in his confusion so he did the best thing that he could, keep Anakin out of the figthing altoegther. He may not have been as diplomatic as he could be but this is Mace Windu, hardly the silver tongued Jedi. Another instance where following orders would have saved everyone alot of grief. Those damned Skywalkers and their issues with authority.

It's interesting though, that the situation might have turned out differently had Mace let him come along. Excluding him had two effects. 1) it was insulting because it told Anakin that he wasn't trusted. Anakin came to Mace and informed him of Palpatine's true nature because he was, with great internal diffficulty and confusion, trying his best to do the right thing. Allowing him to assist in the capture of Palpatine would have left Anakin feeling validated and appreciated for that decision. Instead, he was left feeling slighted and excluded. 2) it gave Anakin time to think about Palpatine's offer to teach him things that would allow him to save Padme, and about what might happen to Padme if he allowed Palpatine to be apprehended, or even killed by the Jedi. Had Anakin been allowed to come along, they might have set him on a course of action that would have absorbed all his concentration, and left him to ruminate about Palaptine's offer only later, when he could no longer stop the Jedi from arresting or killing the chancellor. Also, as Anakin stood idle in the Jedi Council chamber, we hear Palpatine's voice in his head. Maybe that was just him remembering what Palpatine had told him about the abilities he could gain through the Dark Side, but it may also have been Palpatine reaching out through the Force to work on Anakin a little more at a critical moment. Again, had Anakin accompanied Mace, this may not have happened.

Finally, it's also interesting to speculate what role Mace Windu might have played in Anakin's gradual fall. In all three films, we see Mace in an adversarial relationship with Skywalker. In TPM, he was flatly opposed to training him. And in ROTS, he appears almost hostile, and states clearly that he does not trust Anakin. Thus, we can infer that Anakin's relationship with Windu was always strained. Windu's acceptance of him was probably always grudging at best. Windu, being a powerful and revered Jedi, would naturally have many younger Jedi who looked up to him, and took their cue from him. Anakin may well have found himself lacking sympathy or acceptance from many of them as well. This may have contributed to a feeling of isolation and lack of acceptance within the Jedi order, and that's something that Palpatine could play on very easily. In continually snubbing Skywalkwer, Mace may have actually contributed to driving him towards Palpatine, where Anakin would get that approbation and recognition he craved, and felt he deserved, but which he never got from the Jedi.

[Kerneth]

I don't really understand the argument that Windu is killing an 'unarmed man' when he has Palpatine at his mercy--for that matter, the same is true for the Anakin/Dooku situation.

Simply put, a powerful Force user is never unarmed. We see them smash people to the floor with a simple gesture, fry their opponents with Force-lightning, use mind-tricks against the weak-willed--a skilled Jedi or Sith is still a dangerous opponent even without his lightsaber.

I don't know how difficult it is to deny someone access to their Force powers; it may simply be infeasible or impossible to control a Sith Lord with Darth Sidious' power levels in order to arrest him.

Anakin might have been able to overpower Dooku, after the latter's injuries, but I'm less convinced that Mace Windu could have captured and held Palpatine.

Windu also screwed up with his handling of Anakin; if Windu really didn't trust him, he should have had another Jedi or two or three keeping an eye on him, not just ordered him to stay there and let him brood on the situation. Yes, having him effectively guarded would be even more insulting than what Windu actually did, but if Windu really feared Anakin aiding Palpatine, then that was the safest course.

Windu effectively screwed up twice; he was harsh enough to Anakin to stir up resentment, and not harsh enough to keep Anakin from being able to intervene and come to Palpatine's aid if he decided to do so.

[2000AD]

Typical sith twist. Religion is one issue, but being a sith lord, and inherenly evil and dangerous, is a completely different matter. Once again, different laws probably come into effect.

"Inherently evil and dangerous" is the Jedi Order's opinion. Can you demonstrate to a court of law that an adherent of one cult is "inherently evil and dangerous"?

Case in point, in I, Jedi the Jensuuari (sp) were using Sith teachings but were not evil. They used their powers to protect there community, and when Tavria came along and threatened a BDZ they were forced into serving her.

Strike 1: Let's humiliate Anakin in front of the entire fucking council by telling him he's not going to be a Master. No need to be diplomatic and bring up the issue later, no, why should anyone do that?

Wasn't there a knight on the council in TPM? IIRC there was a Databank entry on her.

[Crown]

When did the Jedi become the arbiters of Republic law? When did the Jedi gain the right to pass judgement on the Senate and the Supreme Chancellor? When did the Jedi gain the right to overturn the Senate's decisions in favor of their own musings?

I don't know about the rest of your points Publius (I don't know the sources you're using for OR Law and Government function), but in DFR Luke realises that the Jedi were police and judiciary in the OR (something re-enforced in SotP).

Also in they new a Sith Lord was responsible for the war (first in TPM then in AotC) - they were told that a Sith Lord had gained control of the Senate (although from Dooku it was a questionable source), later in LoE it is confirmed that there is a Sith Master called Darth Sidious who is orchastrating the Sepratists' movements, who's based on Coruscant in the Seneatorial building no less.

When Anakin tells Windu that Palpatine is Darth Sidious the Sith Master who they were traking down only days before - the Jedi have every right to 'arrest' the Chancellor for futher questioning. When the are attacked by the Chancellor - he was guilty of resisting arrest (and also revealed their suspicions that he truly was the Sith Lord who was comitting high treason).

So my point is; if the Jedi don't have the power to remove/kill Palpatine (remember he resited arrest frist) - then who exactly does? Modern militaries swear loyalty to the office not the man - and to defend agains all enemies foreign and domestic. Colour me green and call me Gumpy but I think Palpatine fits within their mandate perfectly.

[Stark]

It's interesting to note that Yoda didn't seem happy with the intentions of the Jedi: 'to a dark place this leads us'. He didn't seem to support the idea of the Jedi seizing power, however good their intentions.

[Winston Blake]

Wasn't there a knight on the council in TPM? IIRC there was a Databank entry on her.

It's probably just a mistake, since IIRC Anakin explicitly says it's never been done in the history of the Jedi.

Edit: realised i screwed up my facts about 2 seconds after hitting submit.