Maybe Palpatine was correct. The Sith is not evil...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

We were introduced to it as 'The evil Galactic Empire" no? I'd say that you would have to actively disprove the ANH opening crawl to claim that it is not evil.

1) Evilness is dependent on listed actions, not on a text it is. That's the main point of my well-intentioned to dworkin in the first place. He took it as a full declaration of war.
2) Rather than saying that the Empire is a squeaky piece of white paper (which is a straw of my position and is really impossible to achieve anyway), the general goal is to point out it is somewhat better than the sad alternatives, despite being only a bar a few inches high itself. The fact it can do so at all is a sad statement on the SW galaxy more than a praise of the Empire.
3) Alderaan in the film is generally held up to be the epitome of Imperial "evil". Yet if that can potentially be dialed down to something like Hiroshima on a galactic scale, what does this say?
4) Even the Empire has its bright spots. One should do well to remember them. It did, for example, allow a droid into a top governing position - a sodding Grand Moff! Phone me when the NR or OR allows the same. The COMPNOR that supported it did improve the education and justice (it was a Imp Intel assessment, but it was endorsed by the Rebel Hextrophon by virtue of being in his report without any editorial comments: one would think if this was totally false, he would have added a footnote). Do remember that actually, most of the Empire is left almost untouched (more than 79 of 80) with only a governor to remind them where the Empire stands on things.

In the interest of this thread's peace, I'd leave it short.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. You're expecting me to believe the most stable state of political equilibrium is the 25-year Empire over the 25,000-year Republic? And you're basing this on what? The death thros thirteen years before the Empire?

And the Empire, and what happened after it. I'm not saying it is particularly stable, but at least it had cohesion.

Even in its better days, "service" in the Old Republic can be slow. It took three centuries for the Jedi Knights (and by extension the OR) To get around to saving those enslaved Lorrdians. Yes, I know they had some other things on their mind, but three fucking centuries? This government works? That's why sometimes I wonder whether the Old Republic works by governing "less" (and I'm not talking "less" as in not being Imperialistically oppressive).

The Kanz Disorders were a dark period for the Kanz Sector, at the time an isolated region of space on the frontier of the Republic. Nearly four millennia ago, provisional governor Myrial, of Argazda, turned away from her duties to create a base of power for herself. She and her people revolted against Republic rule. They tried to establish a dictatorial regime and enslave the rest of the sector.

At the time, the Republic was preoccupied with many other conflicts. Border wars with expansionist species occurred with depressing frequency. Meanwhile, the Senate was paralyzed with outmoded policies and methods.

Over years of careful plotting, Myrial and her servants purged the sector's fleet of disloyal souls and built a network of spies. They waited until the time was ripe. They assassinated all who opposed them and declared themselves independent.

Instead of a clean severing of Republic ties, the revolution became a frenzy of destruction. Lorrd was just one world caught in the conflict. Myrial ordered the world bombed from orbit and its inhabitants sold into slavery. The Lorrdians collaborated with other revolutionary elements and Myrial decreed that any Lorrdian who spoke or communicated with another would be put to death. The Lorrdians were forced to change their culture just to survive.

The Republic, overtasked with problems of its own, did nothing. Myrial's empire lasted for three centuries, until the Jedi Knights were finally able to bring about order and free the Lorrdians and others persecuted under Myrial. However, in the years of conflict over 500 million Lorrdians and five billion other beings died.

For their part, the Lorrdians have vowed never to let the galaxy forget that dark period. They are outspoken critics and activists (and sometimes much more) against the practice of slavery.

Does the term poorly representative sample mean anything to you?

Poorly represented? The bulk of SW material describes the period from a bit before TPM to the end of NJO. The other 25000 years or so have gaps of decades or even centuries (or occasionally millenia) between records. The history is filled with "somehows".

The high resolution sample suggests that galaxy is almost naturally repulsive. It is rather amazing with such a galaxy, it could stay glued together at all!

The only thing I could guess at so far is the galaxy had a "critical size" beyond which the multiplexity of interests cannot allow it to remain as a semi-cohesive form without coercion. At some point, the OR waltzed past the point.

[Iceberg]

Personally, I think that the Dark Side is not necessarily evil, but Palpatine certainly was. He started a war which killed untold numbers of people as a ruse to get himself into power; that is morally indefensible no matter how many contortions you use.

This is an interesting thought, but how often have we actually seen the Dark Side of the Force being used for good? (counting C and S canon material) - it seems at least from viewing the films that once one falls to the Dark Side, it becomes either very difficult or impossible to use the Force for non-evil acts.

Anakin certainly intends to use the Dark Side for good, but when push comes to shove, he uses the Dark Side to annihilate the Jedi Knights down to mass slaughter of children, and damn near murders his wife with it.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Personally, I think that the Dark Side is not necessarily evil, but Palpatine certainly was. He started a war which killed untold numbers of people as a ruse to get himself into power; that is morally indefensible no matter how many contortions you use.

This is an interesting thought, but how often have we actually seen the Dark Side of the Force being used for good? (counting C and S canon material) - it seems at least from viewing the films that once one falls to the Dark Side, it becomes either very difficult or impossible to use the Force for non-evil acts.

Anakin certainly intends to use the Dark Side for good, but when push comes to shove, he uses the Dark Side to annihilate the Jedi Knights down to mass slaughter of children, and damn near murders his wife with it.

Yes exactly.

The Dark Side...is called Dark (i.e. forbidding, menacing, bad) for a reason. Once you fall into the Dark Side you become more concerned iwth personal gain, your emotions are unleashed and all the greed and powerlust that all humans keep hiden inside comes rushing out to the surface.

THAT is the true Sith. It's emotion gone mad. The Jedi, you can knock them if you want, were trying to do the best they possibly could to prevent this. They failed miserably, but their intentions were always just. The Sith suceeded spectacularly, but their intentions were evil and dark and caused nothing but destruction.

It's really very simple. It's black and white. I dont know why people always want to add gray areas where none exist; do these folks watch a documentary on the Nazi party and say "Well we dont KNOW that Hitler was an anti-semite"? It's said, shown and described in every form of literature from books to movies to video games and made as clear as could possibly be that the Sith and the Dark Side are evil. There IS NO GRAY AREA!


Ok, so lets recap:

Jedi=flawed but good.

Sith=evil.

Darkside=bad.

Lightside=good.


It's THAT simple. There are NO gray areas, nothing, it's just so.

[Nephtys]

The Dark Side...is called Dark (i.e. forbidding, menacing, bad) for a reason. Once you fall into the Dark Side you become more concerned iwth personal gain, your emotions are unleashed and all the greed and powerlust that all humans keep hiden inside comes rushing out to the surface.

THAT is the true Sith. It's emotion gone mad. The Jedi, you can knock them if you want, were trying to do the best they possibly could to prevent this. They failed miserably, but their intentions were always just. The Sith suceeded spectacularly, but their intentions were evil and dark and caused nothing but destruction.

It's really very simple. It's black and white. I dont know why people always want to add gray areas where none exist; do these folks watch a documentary on the Nazi party and say "Well we dont KNOW that Hitler was an anti-semite"? It's said, shown and described in every form of literature from books to movies to video games and made as clear as could possibly be that the Sith and the Dark Side are evil. There IS NO GRAY AREA!

Ok, so lets recap:

Jedi=flawed but good.
Sith=evil.
Darkside=bad.
Lightside=good.


It's THAT simple. There are NO gray areas, nothing, it's just so.

The Light and Dark stuff is arbitary. The Force didn't call itself that, and the fact that the Sith use this 'dark' stuff really is the equivilent of wearing dark hats and twirling mustaches. All the sith we've met of course have been murdering bastards, but their philosophy that competition breeds personal strength is not nessisarilly evil. You could say that democracy was evil because of a nation run by a small majority/vocal minority of militant intollerant jerks (which of course the concept of is silly! Right? Right?!), and is morally worse than an enlightened dictatorship.

There IS A Grey-side, and that's NJO, that got rid of half of the really stagnant aspects of the old order, and the highbrow way they see themselves.

[Vympel]

Particularly since the music was a rescoring of the Emperor's theme from RotJ.

Hmm? Where'd you hear that?