Who was Most Responsible for Anakin's Fall?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Lets be real though, this started long, LONG before Ankain heard someone say he was the Chosen One...besides the fact the notion a kid can be 'tainted' by knowing they have some power, which seems extremely unrealistic, no offense...

It's irrelivent when he found out he was the Chosen One he obviously had MAJOR psychological flaws or else the murdering of children and betrayal of his mentor/brother Obi would have been impossible. People dont usually just 'turn' to crazy, or the Dark Side.

This kid was trouble from the word 'Go'. As a ten year old he want dangerous, but when he grew up and started banging senators and making babies something obviously kicked in, and i doubt it was ego alone.

I'm talking about a deep rooted mental fuck up here. Like sociopathy. He went, in the course of a couple of weeks, from a Jedi knight to a Sith Lord, and questioned his choice not once. When he was sent to kill teh Jedi, no objections, murder the Younglings, no objections, kill Obi Wan, no objections...nothing, like he just switched off Anakin and became Vader. When Padme commits the 'crime' against him of showing up with Obi Wan he instantly flies into a range and psychically attacks his PREGNANT wife and strangles her and does God only knows what kind of psychic damage to her in the process.

Moving on to the later movies...he ruthlessly oversees the detsruction of billions of Alderaan, has obviously murdered any remaining Jedi if there were any, kills several of his own men in cold blood, cuts off his son's hand and basically hands a man (Han Solo) to a known murderer and bounty hunter (Boba Fett) on a platter. This is the same guy, with the same mind almost devoid of emotion. And it was only in the last few moments of his life, when he finally goes back to being the nice kid he was before and kills the Emperor.

All in all he didnt suffer he made everything around him suffer, for years, including his own wife, children and best friend. He fell to the Dark Side because he was an evil little shit, no help needed. I doubt he'd have been a Jedi much longer anyway, probably would have gone nuts and killed like a dozen people as soon as he was cats out of the order for knocking up Padme. He was a timebomb of God only knows what kind of mental issues, waiting to explode, and unfortunately he did so at the most opprotune time for Palpatine's plans.

[Noble Ire]

Well, that was an incredibly pesimsitic assessment.

While I'll agree that Anakin was messed up on some level, I think it was due to his upbrining, growing up as a slave, being removed from his mother, having huge expectations placed on his head, rather than just being plain crazy from birth. I think that Anakin might have actually have grown into a decent Jedi if he had been given the right circumstances. If Padme had turned him down, if the Jedi's policies on marrige had allowed him to approach them for help instead of Palpy, maybe even just being brought up by Qui-gon (a more experienced and grounded master than Obi-wan) then maybe he would have turned out all right. Being pushed into an impossible situation with Padme, the council, and Palpatine was the tipping point for his delicat hold on his Jedi principles, and the better aspects of himself, which were covered up when Palpy made him Vader (or he made himself that. Amditedly he killed Mace of his own free will, but I think by that point, Palpy had already liquidated most of his slef control.)

[18-Till-I-Die]

Hey pesimism is what optimists call realism.

In all seriousness though, i'm calling it as i sees it. Of course i could be mistaken, but i doubt there werent some serious, deeply rooted problems there.

Lots of people, lots of powerful people, are in impossible situations. Some do implode. But in this case it goes beyond merely failing and going down in flames and strides into psychopath territory. The only time he ever showed any compassion after becoming Vader in ep 3 was when he shed a tear on Mustafar. If he shed a tear for everyone he killed, then and later, he'd be up to his neck in saltwater. The waves could snuff out the volcanos.

Later, in ROTJ, Luke's influence changes this but honestly it was too little too late to excuse what he had done before. Though he did, in a way, partially redeem himself by finally downing an even more evil and ruthless guy, Palpatine.

If this was a real guy and not a character in a movie, people would be debating his psychological fucked up-ness (for lack of a better word) for the next fifty years. Palpatine was even worse, because he was, the whole time, utterly elated at the very idea of causing sucj deatha nd torment to get more power. The only RL comparisons i can make is, Palpatine is like Adolf Hitler and Vader is like Hess.

Course...of topic...thats what makes them great villains. Is that you really get into thinking about what they're thinking. What weird, sick shit runs through their minds.

[Noble Ire]

Hell, maybe I'm just biased towards thinking more positively because I really liked the redeption aspect of ROTJ.
I'll admit Anakin made some really fucked up decisions. Still, I'm inclined to think it was predominately Palpatine (and to a lesser extent the Council) that really threw him over the edge. The Jedi for their very flawed policies, and Palpatine for getting into Anakin's mind and sitimulating all the bad emotions and hatreds he had locked away. What Anakin did as Vader was still his fault, and if he had survived ROTJ, I think it might be justified to execute him (in fact, I get the feeling he might want that too) but considering the situation surrounding the fact, I still can accept his redemption. In its process, he killed a greater evil, saved the life of his son, destroyed the part of him that was Vader, and ended up dying. And after that, only three people forgave him. Think it is justified there at least.
By the way, I tend to think of Vader as Rommel actually.

[Patrick Degan]

Anakin did make the choice. But it was the Jedi Council which shaped the path leading to that choice.

Essentially, I've taken the view that the Jedi Order itself laid the groundwork for its own downfall because they not only denied the Dark Side but attemtped to banish it altogether. With this essential error, they created a growing imbalance which sooner or later was bound to result in disaster. Anakin's turn to evil and the rise of Palpatine was the ultimate expression of this formula.

For centuries, they created the conditions by which they required a "Chosen One" to restore balance to the Force. In desperation to make the prophecy come true, they wrenched from his mother a kid who was born a slave, seperated him emotionally as well as physically from the only world he knew; subjected him to endless conditioning about suppressing one's emotions, all while simultaneously filling his head with all this "Chosen One" nonsense and constantly putting him on the defensive for his errors and shortcomings —which arose from a lack of experience and wisdom. The Jedi never saw through their own arrogance. The council in general, and Obi-Wan in particular, helped foster in Anakin a distrust of the underlying political system binding the Republic together as well as a distrust of the very people who were teaching him. They created him into a man who came to believe that the only way to set the world to rights was to force it into shape —which more or less was the same worldview as Adolf Hitler held. They denied love as a valid path, forcing him to hide his relationship with Padme and on at least one occasion threatening him with expulsion for placing any primacy on emotion over the strict regimen of the Order. They forced him into a choice of betraying the Order or betraying the woman he loved (Padme) and the mentor who befriended him (Palpatine). True it is that Anakin was a murderer and a traitor, but his life-path was warped in that direction from childhood on up. He never had a chance.

By contrast, Luke Skywalker was raised to believe that there could be good in the world. It appeared that he had a close and loving relationship with his Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru who raised him. He had friends and dreams of a better life. He meets a much chastened Obi-Wan Kenobi who learned wisdom the hard way when everything he lived for was destroyed as the direct result of his own folly and it led him to take a much lighter hand in guiding Luke. Same to a slightly lesser extent with Yoda. Luke's entire life gave him the moral strength to face his father and what he had become and to reach out for whatever good was left in the man while resisting the seductive power of the Dark Side. Luke had faced both good and evil and found the balance between the two. He was confronted with his fears and trancended them when he accepted his own dark side as part of himself as much as his light side, and was able to make a clear-headed choice between the two. By his own instincts and upbringing, Luke on his own charted the very path the Jedi should have and hence avoided disaster. That's how he was able to step back from the brink of madness at the critical moment, spare his father, and reject the Emperor and everything he stood for.

[2000AD]

I think it's a tie between Anakin (for making the choices) and Palpitine (For giving him those choices.

Padme is clean, no blame.

I also think the council shouldn't take as much of the blame as people are giving it. If people had have actually listened to what they said then he'd have probably been ok.
Hey Anakin don't get involved with someone! He does and his love for Padme was a reason for turning.
Hey QuiGon, don't even think of training that kid. But he does, and threatens to leave the order to do so.
Hey Anakin, be patient. Wah wah, i want more power!

They do take part of the blame for not being strict enough, but no where enar the amount people are laying on them.

[Chris OFarrell]

Personally I'd give this one to Palpy. Anakin only half way made the choice; he disarmed Windu and for good reason. Mace had no right to just execute Palpy.

Sorry, how is this?

The Jedi are clearly granted wide ranging police powers by the senate, I'm sure they are VERY specific about dealing with Dark Jedi / The Sith. Palpitine at the LEAST was resisting arrest with deadly force. It wasn't treason for Windu to declare him to be under arrest, Palpitine then killed three Jedi and was trying his darndest to kill Windu. Its not like Windu had a chance to slap the handcuffs on or even try to disable him easily.

[Trogdor]

He had no hard proof that Palpy was indeed a Sith when he marched in there, just a somewhat messed up young Jedi telling him that he could use the dark side. And between Mace and Anakin, they could've carted him off if they wanted. It's not like Anakin was against the idea; he was pleading for it. I can't believe that the Jedi have the authority to just sentance someone to death.