The Empire, Sidious, and Vader

[Darth Mortis]

All,

I was thinking about the building of the galactic empire post ROTS, and I came up with a few questions.


1) With Padme dead, and his best friend believed to be dead or missing, do you think Vader started immediatly into killing rogue Jedi? Or did he need to be convinced to continue the assault?

2) What were the repercussions from the murder of all the Younglings at the Jedi temple, surely word must have gotten out, correct?

3) Why was Bail not killed, he was identified as a witness to some killings in the novel and they fired at him, but was somehow "excused" from Palpy's death squad after he escaped with Wedge.

4) Finally, did Vader have a "good" relationship with the emperor? Or was he always biding his time waiting for the perfect moment to strike down his master?

[McC]

1) With Padme dead, and his best friend believed to be dead or missing, do you think Vader started immediatly into killing rogue Jedi? Or did he need to be convinced to continue the assault?

Vader had lost every reason he had for everything he did. He turned to the dark side to save Padme. With Padme dead, he no longer had any rationale for anything, and had committed so much wrong, that he essentially became a thrall of Palpatine until he realized his son was alive, and that his 'justification' might not be dead after all.

2) What were the repercussions from the murder of all the Younglings at the Jedi temple, surely word must have gotten out, correct?

The Clonetroopers were still there when Bail Organa showed up to investigate. I suspect the information was rigidly controlled.

3) Why was Bail not killed, he was identified as a witness to some killings in the novel and they fired at him, but was somehow "excused" from Palpy's death squad after he escaped with Wedge.

This must be from the book. When does Wedge show up in the movie? Or are you referring to Captain Antilles, who is completely unrelated to Wedge?

In any case, the Clones more or less said, "Let him go" when he made to escape the Jedi temple after his little visit. He was apparently not considered a threat.

4) Finally, did Vader have a "good" relationship with the emperor? Or was he always biding his time waiting for the perfect moment to strike down his master?

See my answer to #1.

[Jay]

1. At the end of ROTS, Vader plainly stated that he thought the Jedi were evil. I doubt that he neded much persuassion in hunting down those that he thought had betrayed him.

2. [Imperial Propaganda] There were no younglings at the Jedi Temple. None what so ever. Nope. No younglings. Anyone who says otherwise is dirty rebel scum.[/Imperial propaganda]

3. No answer to this one. erm...because Wedge is the Dude and the empire wouldn't dare go near anyone under his protection. Even though he'd be only 5 at the time of ROTS. (joking)

4. The emperor calls him friend in ROTJ. I have no actual evidence for this one, but I have always imagined their relationship to be ammacable. Its probably Lukes appearence in ANH that Vader starts plotting the old man's downfall.

[Jay]

damned you type fast Mc C. I'm glad someone agrees with me on point 4. I felt I was going out on a limb

[McC]

damned you type fast Mc C. I'm glad someone agrees with me on point 4. I felt I was going out on a limb

clickety-clickety-clickety-click.

But yeah, there's a thread around here where I explained my view of 'the plot, as a whole.' A lot of people disagreed (fairly so) with my interpretation of the 'light side' of things, but I'm pretty sure I got the 'dark side' of things right.

Tying ROTS into all of this, here's what I think the whole deal was.

Vader's purpose for turning to the dark side is to save Padme from death. He then thinks he killed her, which destroys every single reason he had for going to the dark side, rendering him a shell of his former self -- a being without any true purpose, who becomes a simple tool of the emperor. This is reflected in ROTS when he says he wants to overthrow Palpatine and rule with Padme. He knows Palpatine is evil, and plans to throw him out so he and Padme can be happy. Then he goes and thinks Padme is dead. This further is reflected in his attitude shift between ANH and ESB (discussed below).

<snip>

Vader finds out that the person who blew up the Death Star was "Luke Skywalker." He suddenly feels the embers of his hopes for Padme reignite -- he has a purpose again. His family may not be all gone and his dreams for fixing the galaxy and getting rid of Palpatine may actually come to fruition. He begins doggedly searching for Skywalker. Palpatine, a little later, catches wind of this and tries to bend this turn of events to his own will, but Vader is already working against him.

<snip>

Vader exhibits his desire to overthrow Palpatine and bring order to the galaxy as "father and son" (rather than as husband and wife, like he proposed to Padme at the end of ROTS).

<snip>

Luke, predictably, again tries to turn Vader. Vader is conflicted once again, as he was in ROTS. His son -- his renewed purpose for living and the only tie he has to the woman he loved and for whom fell to the Dark Side -- is trying to turn him away. His son is what he wanted to be. However, he feels as though he can't change the path he's gone down. "It is...too late for me, son" can easily be read as "I wish I could do what you ask, but I'm just too far gone...I'm sorry."

So Luke confronts the emperor. And he gets owned, much as everyone knew he would. The most powerful Jedi fell before the emperor, why should Luke be any different? But Luke has reignited enough of Anakin's compassion and love that he cannot bear to watch Luke suffer, so he turns on the emperor -- the only one who could feasibly do it -- and defeats him.

[Spartan]

Darth Mortis wrote:

1) With Padme dead, and his best friend believed to be dead or missing, do you think Vader started immediatly into killing rogue Jedi? Or did he need to be convinced to continue the assault?

Going by the SW: Empire comics Vader did not go off looking for Surving Jedi immediatly. He seems to have been in a fragile emotional state. He also appears to have some attachment issues to Palpatine. Not surprising given the history with Padame and his mother. Attachment is what brought him to the darkside after all.

2) What were the repercussions from the murder of all the Younglings at the Jedi temple, surely word must have gotten out, correct?

That could easily be covered up, with the right propaganda, or outright lies. Remember Waco? They could just say that the Jedi would not release the children when asked and that they fought to the last man. They could even say that the Jedi killed them, rather see them in Republic hands.

3) Why was Bail not killed, he was identified as a witness to some killings in the novel and they fired at him, but was somehow "excused" from Palpy's death squad after he escaped with Wedge.

The clones most just follow orders, they don't have much in the way of iniative. It was probablynever reported that Bail was there. Alternatly, Bail was a loyalist; if he is asked about it all he has to say is "I'm glad those Jedi scum got what they deserve. Remember at this point the New Order doesn't really exist yet, so there is no COMPNOR to investigate.

4) Finally, did Vader have a "good" relationship with the emperor? Or was he always biding his time waiting for the perfect moment to strike down his master?

Again from the Empire series Vader is quite attached to Palpatine, at one pointhe expresses discomfort at being ordered away. "...but I have so much to learn at your side, my master..." Palpatine as much as tells him to grow up, your a Dark Lord of Sith, start acting like one.

[Tsyroc]

2. [Imperial Propaganda] There were no younglings at the Jedi Temple. None what so ever. Nope. No younglings. Anyone who says otherwise is dirty rebel scum.[/Imperial propaganda]

Better yet, why not just say that the Jedi themselves killed all the Younglings instead of letting them be corrupted by the heroic Republic forces who were there to arrest the Jedi Cult leaders who had tried to kill the Chancellor in an attempted coup?

In the case of the intermediate age Jedi students who weren't involved in any fighting they obviously killed themselves rather than be arrested because of the fanatical dedication they had to the order due to years of intense indoctrination by the leaders of the Jedi Cult.

[Cykeisme]

I like McC and Jasonicusuk's explanations. They fit perfectly, and keeping them in mind while watching the entire hexology (eh) makes a lot of sense.