Would you trash the EU?

[Noble Ire]

I say keep some of the EU and trash the crap.

BTW, what do you mean about butchery in the ICS, Connor?

The lack of decent straightforward statistics in the datafiles, for example. Some other things I've noticed that differ substantially from Curtis' prior work (even as a contributor) points to the fact someone mutiliated Curtis' original work with the ROTS ICS (probably maliciously.)

Maliciously? Who would do that?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Maliciously? Who would do that?

Saxton has lots of enemies in LFL. People that don't like Saxton actually doing research and rolling over their work (had Star Wars been real history, their sloppy research would have been cause of thousands of fraud accusations). He probably used up the last of his influence to give us the Imperator.

[Soontir C'boath]

Most if not all the EU books I've read, had at times when I would just skip paragraphs/pages to the next scene because it was either so freakishly boring or it just plain fucking sucked.

Some stuff were good such as the Tales of Mos Eisley and the series about Boba Fett by Jeter and the rest aren't that memorable.

[swaaye]

Science FICTION isn't about having authors try to rationalize everything with reality. WTF is with everyone wanting realism? You do realize that we have such a limited understanding of the universe that practically anything is possible. Reality is what our little planet has made of it, and that is one extremely small little viewpoint. How can you assume you know what is real? This is fantasy, we're making up what we dream can be possible. Zahn as a scientist obviously is going to have some crazy ideas.

If you want more science, go out and read his Conqueror's trilogy. He goes really overboard with scientific detail there.

Thrawn Trilogy is his best work, that I've read. I've read all of his Star Wars work. Duology, Trilogy, short stories in several Star Wars shortstory novels, and Survivor's Quest (can't wait for the followup prequel book). I'm working on book 2 of Conqueror's trilogy now. It's not Star Wars based, btw. Actually I'm reading Truce at Bakura again right now, Conqueror's sorta has me bored. Book 2 is too much like a booklong Vong viewpoint, lol.

[VT-16]

Because in reality, things tend to stay consistent, not vary from story to story. There ain´t no such thing as biotech >> everything else in construction either.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Science FICTION isn't about having authors try to rationalize everything with reality.

It is, however, about trying to maintain realism to the maximum possible degree with your story. Even LFL recognized that for a while - you know, kind of why Saxton was hired.

If you want more science, go out and read his Conqueror's trilogy. He goes really overboard with scientific detail there.

Star Trek goes with "scientific detail" (technobabble) too. The problem is whether that so-called detail is bull or not. If it is bull, it is better off not there. If it isn't, kudos for him.

[Ender]

I am blown away that some of you can come here and say we should dump the EU. Uhh...what were you people living on from 1983-1999? Watching the old trilogy every day?

No, most of us went outside, had other hobbies, played sports, interacted with people, and basically had lives.

I grew up with those EU books. I recall some of them fondly every week. They are part of me, because they made up a lot of my youth. There are many really great books in there. It just blows my mind that some of you can say "dump them." Absolutely unbelievable.....

My response is the same to you. Jesus man, they are just stories, mostly of very poor quality, about a fictional universe.

I look over at Survivor's Quest on my bookshelf and think how much Zahn has done for Star Wars. The games that use his material (TIE Fighter for God's sake!). The other authors. The sourcebooks. The card games. The Thrawn Trilogy. Hand of Thrawn Duology. Mara Jade. Jacen & Jaina. Pellaeon. Talon Karrde. Noghri. And some of you want to dump all of this......

Yes, because most of it is utter crap.

And if we dump the EU that means that we have to throw away some of the best of LucasArts too. X-Wing, TIE Fighter, X-Wing Alliance. The entire Dark Forces series, from the original through Jedi Knight 2 (Jedi Academy isn't part of DF as Kyle isn't the main char). Kyle Katarn. Jan. Dark Troopers. Harkov, Zaarin, TIE Defenders, Assault Gunboats. OMG!

So what? Most of those were just mediocre games. So what if there are a few less troops or fighters in a fictional universe? hell, subtracting some of the more wankish designs would be a good thing.

To me, the EU is Star Wars. Without the EU, it's a whole lot less interesting. Hell, without the EU I'm not interested.

What the fuck. Seriously. The movies are what matter, are what tell the story, are what it is all about. Could the writing have used a little bit of punching up? Yes. But lets not even begin to pretend that anything in the EU comes close to it on a story scale. It's only now ater the poor performance of the clone wars and NJO books that Del Ray is going "Oh, hey, maybe we should let Denning go through the Cambellian mythos, which is what this whole thing is about anyways". And show me a single story out there that really touches on the truth of what the series is about - the importance of fathers?

The EU is filler fluff crap that has only the poorest similarities as to what Star Wars is really about. Can it be a fun and interesting time killer? Sure. But when it comes down to it, it isn't even a shadow of what the movies are.

Star Wars would be like the Matrix on my interest scale: a passing sci-fi flick to catch. Didn't you people grow up with this stuff too?

No, I grew up on hiking, construction, computers, hanging with my friends, etc.

WTF. I remember a summer when I was around 12-13 when my sister and I would pick a Star Wars movie out of the original trilogy (this is WAY before the prequels) and watch one every night. I remember reading Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy when I was in 8th grade for the first time....ignoring the teacher in class too as I read them. Hahah. Lol. Star Wars is engrained in me. The movies, the books, the games, all of it.

That's pretty sad actually. You make it sound like you have let your hobby take over your life. I hope that isn't actually the case.

So. I ask you all. How can you really consider what this thread suggests? How can you even REMOTELY consider this.

Because most of it barely deserves the praise of being called "crap"

Heh, well energy can't have momentum. It's substantially massless. But perhaps how the tech works it somehow does.....but it seems like more of a "ooh wow" then than anything else...

Not saying that it's not really cool or I want them to stop, but physically energy doesn't have any means to push matter around.... ALTHOUGH you know how solar sails (really BIG sails pushing really tiny matter) could be used to propel objects by catching moving particles in space? Well perhaps this is some sort of transmitted radiation or particle energy that because of its density it can push matter? LOL! Hmm...

You are a fucking moron. This is freshman level high school knowledge, and in your complete and utter ignorance you decide to mock it.

P=U/C P = energy, U = momentum, C = speed of light. photons have momentum, that is how SOLAR sails work, those based off charged particles are called magnetic sails.

Next time skippy, how about you have some kind of clue about what you are talking about, particularily before you decide to declare it laughable.

Zahn has a Masters degree in Physics, btw. His Conquerors trilogy is FILLED with scientific descriptions. Thrawn Trilogy & Duology have some too, but he was way less "enthusiastic" about injecting it into those books...

Yes, a Master's degree in physics, yet he thinks ceramics are a superior armor then metals. A Master's degree in physics yet he uses starfighters despite the obvious delta V problems. A Master's degree in physics yet he uses plasma as a weapons system.

Is he a good writer? Yes. Does he apply physics at all in his novels beyond technobabble? Fuck no.

[Ender]

Yes and no. His point with that was more aboout slow moving blobs in scifi. You can have a design that shots little blobs, you just have to make them go really fast for them to be effective. This is how star shiva was suppossed to work before its funding was cut/it went black budget (take your pick)

Incidently, that bit is now cited on atomic rocket as a"definitive analysis". Nifty.

And Shiva star had a range of what, exactly?

Unknown, it was canceled/classified right as it hit the important testing phase, and the details of the earlier tests are yet to be released. We still hae something like 10 years before FOIA means we will have access to them.

Does the projectile persist for multiple seconds (like the TESB ion bolt?)

Well, the idea was to use it as point defense agaisnt missiles, so-I'd say its likely the case, but I can't say that with certainty.

By contrast, what is the range of Ion cannons?

High orbit would be 30,000-40,000 km.

Can a 10,000 km/s velocity match that? (and lets not even get into the energy of the ion bolt... )

If the blob can stick together for a few seconds, yes.

Last time I measured it (which was awhile back) between 2-5 seconds. And it probably HAS to be a tracer , since the velocity of the bolt seems to vary extensively (it propogates very slowly on emission, then very fast up to the ISD, then very slowly when it hits said ISD.)

Might that have something to do with the shields there?

1.) The ion bolt was required to possess enough energy to overload the shields of said ISD. In the case of the ISD, this is going to be at least in the e24-e25 watt range, but that's being bare-assed conservative. In reality its probably going to be at least an order of magnitude, if not two (maybe even three), greater.

Granted I am not privy to the basis behind how shields work, but only in designs that have a far greater surface area then volume does the dissipation rate of shields end up being greater then the peak power of the reactor. So I'm doubtful it would be int the e25 watts range. On top of that, there is the factor of intensity and the fact that the EMP effect could help bring down the shields too without physically overwhelming them, though that requires the shield itself to transfer and generate the EMP effect upon interacting with the ion blast, which is by no means a given.

2.) The "bolt" has to carry that energy in some form, and with that much energy, its got substantial momentum behind it - more than enough to visibly shove that target aside at the estimated velocites we could infer from the movie.

Agreed, assuming tha the intensity or EMP effect don't reduce the energy required. Remember, the recoil force didn't cause the ice of the glacier to shatter.

[Ender]

Science FICTION isn't about having authors try to rationalize everything with reality. WTF is with everyone wanting realism? You do realize that we have such a limited understanding of the universe that practically anything is possible.

Ah, the no limits fallacy. Such a dear old friend

Reality is what our little planet has made of it, and that is one extremely small little viewpoint. How can you assume you know what is real? This is fantasy, we're making up what we dream can be possible. Zahn as a scientist obviously is going to have some crazy ideas.

The ideas of a scientist should be more rational dimbulb.

If you want more science, go out and read his Conqueror's trilogy. He goes really overboard with scientific detail there.

Yeah, what with his ceramic armors, and plasma weapons, and high thrust starships...

[Noble Ire]

Ender, I agree with you that SW should not dominate your life or anything, as it clearly does in some cases.

That being said, I would reiterate that I enjoy most of the EU a great deal, and its existance in all its varied forms and detail is what really attacts me to SW. Certainly, the movies are the prime elements, without which the rest could not stand, but without the EU, I believe my interest in this particular epic might wain somewhat. I enjoy depth and intricacy in what I read and watch, and the EU makes the movies all the more special. I can understand that many may dislike, or even hate the EU (although many of these indaviduals do so out of principle, without any real personal experience to back up their odd view) and if you can enjoy it just as much as I without spending money and time on the novels and other sources, then do so, content in the knoweledge your wallet is heavier than mine. Still, many fans will stick with the EU, even if some of it is bad. I wont argue with you on what parts of it are bad or why your wrong about thinking that way, it is a matter of personal taste.

My question is, if so many people enjoy the EU, why would those who do not like it feel the need to "trash it" or deride those who enjoy it by calling it mindless drivel, or perhaps crap? Does it hinder themin any way? Does it detract from the movies? It most certainly does not for me.

[Connor MacLeod]

Point, but they are acting internally. IIRC, force (holding the ship together against a million gees) does not require energy, but work (changing the ships velocity) requires energy.

Which is presumably why he "reverse-trigger" them, so they might have to act externally. (On the other hand, it might also be analogous to the tactics used to protect shielding from Vong "grabbing" attacks.)

They don't? They won't need the propellant, but for energy they will still have to very ... clever to use gravitics to circumvent the law of conservation of energy.

Maybe you should try rereading what I said:

Since they don't behave on the same principles as a reaction drive, you don't neccesarily need the huge energy outputs (or the propellantt) you do to achieve canon performance with ion drives (of course, you can't really use a repulsor away from any mass/gravity well as well.)

Do you really need me to point out the disparity between Dooku's (canon) 5,000-20,000 gee acceleration and the fact that the Sailer's own ion engines can't produce more than 30 gees of accel tops? (how bout the fact the Falcon can pull more than 20 million gees accel with its repulsors for brief periods but an only pull about 3000 gees or so with its ion engines?)

I can almost buy this, but tell me this: Why did ACs not become primary sublight propulsion systems?

First off, they only provide propulsion if they have something to push against You know, like a planet.

This fact tends to put additional limitations on them. They will only provide thrust to a ship parallel to the mass (meaning that a ship facing towards a planet can slow itself down or speed itself up, but would have difficulty turning itself or moving laterally.)

On top of that, distancee becomes a problem as well. Since gravity is (last I checked) still basically a lightspeed phenomenon, this means that it takes time for any gravitic "beams" to propogate. So if you're 1 million km away from a planet and fire a repulsor "beam" at said planet, it will be several seconds before the ship experiences any thrust. On top of that, gravity by nature decreases in strength the further from its "source" that it gets, so a beam striking a distant "target" could be substantially weaker than it is at the point of generation. (this is going to be invariably true of all gravitic devicees - including tractor beams and gravity well-projectors.)

It is better than repulsorlifts, since it apparently can work in deep space without significant gravity to push on.

Who the fuck said AC can provide propulsive force without something to push on? They're related technologies (as noted in the AOTC:ICS - including the fact that they all use subnuclear knots of spacetime) and we have examples of one kind of gravitic device being modified to another use.

And in no cases did the AC's NOT have a nearby source of gravity (or mass) to act upon. In HTTE Luke's X-wing was trapped in an tractor beam, after all (A gravitic device.) Indeed, Luke used his AC to "neutralize" the attractive force of the tractor beam to escape and allow his proton torpedoes to be latched onto. And AC DO counteract gravitational effects acting on the ship, including external ones (which would obviously include tractor beams, wouldn't you think?)

EDIT: In fact, the X-wing was still inside the gravity well (another source of gravity to act upon)

Unlike ion engines, it does not generate a nice, heated ion trial. And it provides more acceleration.

1.) You apparently remain oblivious to the fact that gravitational phenomena ARE detectable by sensors (did oyu forget Luke was able to detect the gravity well the Interdictor created? To sufficient accuracy that he could plot the edge of said well.)

2.) In all examples of AC's being used in this manner, the result is very brief Hardly a desirable trait in an engine.

At worst, the AC's utilized in this manner acted as a glorified emergency braking mechanism. You could presumably do the same with tractor beams, since their design requires the application of force to distant objects (but using tractor beams as engines could and probably would damage them also. Repulsors may or may not, since Repulsor behaviour is somewhat.. inconsistent. Such as when Repulsors can levitate mutli-ton objects above the ground without crushing grass or hapless gungans that get trapped under them. Some repulsors, though, seem to be able to exert force. EG the "tractor/repulsor" beams used on Dooku's sailer and Geonosian fighters)

It stands to reason that if the AC can damage itself to generate a delta-v equivalent to many seconds of ion thrust, it can be modified to use a somewhat lower acceleration, and be better braced as a primary propulsion system.

Obviously you need to reread what the fuck I posted, ,since its evident you have no fucking idea what I am talking about (or what you are talking about, for that matter.)

I can see him not being able to correct scientific bull, yes. I can even see them forced to use things like the 8km length. He does not have to write scientific bull in his escapees. You see the distinction?

What I see is that you havent' bothered reading what the hell I am posting.

They sabotaged his work? I know that they didn't allow a lot of stats. But sabotage? Where?!

We don't actually know that anyone did anything, and I certainly have no solid proof that they did. I simply suspect (given that he had a different editor under the ROTS book than under the previous books, and the obvious differences between the two, including the lack of datafile information) that someone clearly butchered his writing. Do you serisouly think Curtis would have forgone the datafile info for reactors or shields or weapons outputs (or for that matter, passed up an opportunity to overturn "Imperial-class" for his preferred "Imperator" designation) if someone was not preventing him from doing so (or circumventing his intentions?) I certtainly don't.

[Connor MacLeod]

Unknown, it was canceled/classified right as it hit the important testing phase, and the details of the earlier tests are yet to be released. We still hae something like 10 years before FOIA means we will have access to them.

Line of sight limitations would have limited the range to hundreds, maybe thousands of kilometers tops (depending on altitude.) And that's actually being rather generous (considering that we're only talking a megawatt range output, as opposed to multi-gigaton/teraton outputs.)

Well, the idea was to use it as point defense agaisnt missiles, so-I'd say its likely the case, but I can't say that with certainty.

Yet we know the apparent output of the beam. We also know its velocity. We can presumably estimate its mass as well. I would imagine one could determine the rate at which the "plasma" would expand, since the plasma is only useful so long as it does not disperse too badly.

High orbit would be 30,000-40,000 km.

As a lower limit. Geosynch orbit for an Earthlike planet (Hoth might be somewhat larger) is around 36,000 km. High orbit can be much higher (soem figures I have seen go as high as 90,000-100,000 km.)

Given the visuals, somewhere in the 20,000-40,000 km range seems reasonable.

If the blob can stick together for a few seconds, yes.

And barring a magical containment field, how likely is that?

Might that have something to do with the shields there?

At the point of contact its a possibility (although since we don't see shield interactions until the bolt is very close to the superstructure, this can be argued), but what about when the bolt actually fires (the shields in that section are "open" remember.)

Granted I am not privy to the basis behind how shields work, but only in designs that have a far greater surface area then volume does the dissipation rate of shields end up being greater then the peak power of the reactor. So I'm doubtful it would be int the e25 watts range.

Actually, the dissipation rate appears to be typically/consistently between 1/5 and 1/3 the maximum reactor output (according to the AOTC:ICS - this is suspeiciiously consistent with the "25%" figure from the ISB.) However, I'm factoring in the heat sink capacity as well as the dissipation rate. Heat Sink capacity is arguably much greater than the dissipation rate (Isard's Revenge, ROTJ, etc.)

On top of that, there is the factor of intensity and the fact that the EMP effect could help bring down the shields too without physically overwhelming them, though that requires the shield itself to transfer and generate the EMP effect upon interacting with the ion blast, which is by no means a given.

The beam still has to get *through* the shields in order to do anything to the ship (or the internals.) Ray shields *may* not stop it (depending on your source and interpretation), but if they didn't, particle shielding would (the particles have kinetic energy remember?)

Agreed, assuming tha the intensity or EMP effect don't reduce the energy required. Remember, the recoil force didn't cause the ice of the glacier to shatter.

Its a fixed emplacement. One would assume they have means to brace or counter the weapon's recoil (much like with the SPHA-T, whose firepower is considered to be of similar magnitude.)

Recoil is less of a problem anyhow than how this "plasma/parrticle" beam somehow avoided having absolutely no interactions with the atmosphere (which would we see even if this beam is somehow not carrying enough energy to physically overwhelm the shields.)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Which is presumably why he "reverse-trigger" them, so they might have to act externally. (On the other hand, it might also be analogous to the tactics used to protect shielding from Vong "grabbing" attacks.)

Not my point. I can buy the "reverse-triggering" transferring the force to external. I'm pointing out that the AC in the "hold-ship-together" examples don't have to do work, only apply force.

Do you really need me to point out the disparity between Dooku's (canon) 5,000-20,000 gee acceleration and the fact that the Sailer's own ion engines can't produce more than 30 gees of accel tops? (how bout the fact the Falcon can pull more than 20 million gees accel with its repulsors for brief periods but an only pull about 3000 gees or so with its ion engines?)

If you assume the Falcon stopped in Rebel Dawn. But I accept your Dooku example.

This fact tends to put additional limitations on them. They will only provide thrust to a ship parallel to the mass (meaning that a ship facing towards a planet can slow itself down or speed itself up, but would have difficulty turning itself or moving laterally.)

Would be a problem there. Luke's fighter apparently altered its tangential velocity when it crash-stopped, not its radial.

And in no cases did the AC's NOT have a nearby source of gravity (or mass) to act upon. In HTTE Luke's X-wing was trapped in an tractor beam, after all (A gravitic device.) Indeed, Luke used his AC to "neutralize" the attractive force of the tractor beam to escape and allow his proton torpedoes to be latched onto. And AC DO counteract gravitational effects acting on the ship, including external ones (which would obviously include tractor beams, wouldn't you think?)

Ah, all right. Thanks for reminding me about the artificial gravwell.

We don't actually know that anyone did anything, and I certainly have no solid proof that they did. I simply suspect (given that he had a different editor under the ROTS book than under the previous books, and the obvious differences between the two, including the lack of datafile information) that someone clearly butchered his writing. Do you serisouly think Curtis would have forgone the datafile info for reactors or shields or weapons outputs (or for that matter, passed up an opportunity to overturn "Imperial-class" for his preferred "Imperator" designation) if someone was not preventing him from doing so (or circumventing his intentions?) I certtainly don't.

Phew! I was thinking you were talking about some sabotage beyond those that I hadn't heard about from this board already.

[swaaye]

Ender, wtf is your problem? Lol. I'm not going to bother responding directly to your hostility. Are all of your 6,000+ posts like this? Do you really have friends? I don't remember insulting anyone personally in my post about the EU and what Star Wars means to me. If you take my post to mean that my entire life is Star Wars, well, that's your call I guess. But it sure is not true at all. I don't have 6,000+ posts, sir.

I find it hard to believe that anyone can sustain a heavy interest in Star Wars based on the movies alone.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Ender, wtf is your problem? Lol. I'm not going to bother responding directly to your hostility. Are all of your 6,000+ posts like this? Do you really have friends?

He has allies. One thing you are just going to have to accept is that people here flame more in general. If you like EU and don't like flames, I suggest TFN. There, they put civility near the top in importance.

[Ghost Rider]

Ender, wtf is your problem? Lol. I'm not going to bother responding directly to your hostility. Are all of your 6,000+ posts like this? Do you really have friends? I don't remember insulting anyone personally in my post about the EU and what Star Wars means to me. If you take my post to mean that my entire life is Star Wars, well, that's your call I guess. But it sure is not true at all. I don't have 6,000+ posts, sir.

I find it hard to believe that anyone can sustain a heavy interest in Star Wars based on the movies alone.

A point of note. That was Ender being civil. He noted one fallacy and then tendered a couple of his ideas. If he was being uncivil...you would have most certainly seen it.

[swaaye]

He has allies. One thing you are just going to have to accept is that people here flame more in general. If you like EU and don't like flames, I suggest TFN. There, they put civility near the top in importance.

Will check out TFN. Thanks.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not my point. I can buy the "reverse-triggering" transferring the force to external. I'm pointing out that the AC in the "hold-ship-together" examples don't have to do work, only apply force.

How the hell do you figure they aren't doing work? The AC's are providing enough acceleration to match whatever acceleration is imparted to the ship (by the engines, by weapons impacts, etc.) Since we're talking changes in velocity, one would assume work is in fact being done (it takes energy to accelerate an object to a different velocity.)

If you assume the Falcon stopped in Rebel Dawn. But I accept your Dooku example.

The REbel Dawn example is still valid even if he didn't "stop - the value might be several times lower than the 20 million gee figure, but its still substantially greater acceleration than ion engines produce.

Would be a problem there. Luke's fighter apparently altered its tangential velocity when it crash-stopped, not its radial.

Why? Gravitic devices can provide acceleration in directions other than the ship is facing.

Phew! I was thinking you were talking about some sabotage beyond those that I hadn't heard about from this board already.

I repeat, there's no actual *proof* of sabotage. There's just belief and hearsay and speculation about that based on the fact that there are people who can and do badmouth Curtis and his methods and ideas.