ARC-170: 5e16W shielding!

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Can Toy info be considered Canon?

If you were paying attention, you would have known that it is.

[Darth Wong]

This particular figure seems too high. If that 5e16 W of power is put into the engines and assuming the engines convert it to forward motion with 100 % efficiency the fighter would accelerate at 2e11 gees ! In fraction of a second it would approach the speed of light. Way more then approximately 5000 gees cited for SW fighters.

Don't be a moron. A shield's ability to redirect energy has nothing to do with the ship's power output, and could easily be far greater than the ship's power output. Do you think that a mirror can't possibly reflect 1000 watts of sunlight because it would heat up? Do you understand why a heat pump can pump more watts of heat into a house than it actually draws in electricity?

Once again, I find myself wishing that people on the Internet were prohibited from using scientific terminology unless they actually had some familiarity with the subject.

[Sarevok]

Sorry my mistake. I wrongly assumed that the shield generator requires constant power input 5e16 W to operate.

[Jim Raynor]

Has anyone thought of E-mailing Curtis Saxton to ask if he came up with the number for the ICS, but had to leave it on the cutting room floor?

[Xero Cool Down]

*anticipates much wankige*

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Wankage, and what are you talking about?

[The Dark]

50 petawatts of continual shielding? Yowch...I agree, that does explain the "hundreds of fighters" quote cited earlier.

[NRS Guardian]

This ain't wankage, as someone already pointed out it can only repel firepower in the megaton range. A light p.d. turbolaser can put out that much firepower, according to the ESB asteroid calcs. Plus, the EGV&V states that the Skipray Blastboat, at only 25 meters, has armour capable of protecting it from starfighter laser cannons, making it all but impervious to starfighter lasers. Also, as has been mentioned before it gives the shield piercing buzz droids a reason for being. When your lasers can't do the job, a missile that has shield penetrating ordinance is your only choice.

[Alan Bolte]

It gives missiles a reason for being, you can make any kind shield piercing. Buzz droids remain strictly an anti-jedi weapon and plot device.

[NRS Guardian]

According to the ROTS: ICS its the Buzz Droids themselves, with their shielded protective shell that allows them to penetrate starfighter shields. But it also specifically says they're used to take out Jedi, and yes a missile could have a shield to penetrate starfighter shields. So conceded Buzz Droids are nothing more than a plot device.

[Connor MacLeod]

Wait, what? I'm totally confused. We need to know the vessel's mass to figure out how fast it can accelerate based on power output, don't we? Or am I forgetting my physics? How did you arrive at that 2e11?

Sorry forgot to mention that in a hurry. The vessels mass was assumed to be 25000 KG .

Since Power = Work Done / Time.

Work Done = 5e16 * 1 = 5e16 J

Work Done = Mass * Distance moved

5e16 = 25000 * Distance moved

Distance moved = 2e12 m

So craft accelerates at 2e12 m / sec. In terms of gees it is about 2e11 gee.

Where the hell did you learn math? at a 25000 kg mass, and around 2500 gees (approximately what the ARC-170 can achieve) yields momentum of around 6.25e8 kg*m/s. Since SW ships propel themselves in space via an ion engine, the particle stream ejected by the engines possesses similar momentum. Assuming a particle "mass" of 1.38 kg and a velocity of a little over 250,000 km/s - a little over .8c - we get a KE equal to around 1e17 joules.

[Connor MacLeod]

Don't be a moron. A shield's ability to redirect energy has nothing to do with the ship's power output, and could easily be far greater than the ship's power output. Do you think that a mirror can't possibly reflect 1000 watts of sunlight because it would heat up? Do you understand why a heat pump can pump more watts of heat into a house than it actually draws in electricity?

Once again, I find myself wishing that people on the Internet were prohibited from using scientific terminology unless they actually had some familiarity with the subject.

Not that I'm defending Shadow's logic (or math), but do we know (or have any reason to believe) that generating whatever "fields" make up the deflector shields would not consume much power (though even if they do consume alot of power, I somehow doubt they routinely consume a massive fraction of a ship's powerplant anyhow) Just curious.

[Spartan]

NRS Guardian wrote:

According to the ROTS: ICS its the Buzz Droids themselves, with their shielded protective shell that allows them to penetrate starfighter shields. But it also specifically says they're used to take out Jedi, and yes a missile could have a shield to penetrate starfighter shields. So conceded Buzz Droids are nothing more than a plot device.

No, the buzz droids were not designed specifically to take out Jedi; at least not according to ROTS:ICS.


ROTS: ICS wrote:

Launched from modified tri-fighters and other vessels, these guided buzz droid missiles buzz-droid missiles can outturn and outrun any manned starship.

Each buzz droid's brain is loaded with the design schematics of a vast range of starships and military targets, enabling them to identify weak points.

So, buzz droids are not stupid. They are simply a highly specialized weapons system. They're intended targets are not likely to be tiny starfighters, but capital ships, orbital sations and theater sheilded military installations.

This make a great deal of sense. Take a typical SW warship: its ray and particle shielded, swathed in armor capable of taking nuke hits, and has a fire control suite capable of rendering missile weapons all but useless. Now enter the buzz droid: the missile detonate at a distance from the target vessel, but within it flight path. The droids fire retro thrusters (as described in ROTS: ICS), and their low relative velocity allows them to slip through the particle shields. At which point the droids proceed to soft kill the vessel, by destroying sesor arrays, communications aerial, weapons arrays, sheild projectors, etc.

Now you could say why not make the space equivalent of a mobile mine. Ie. attach to the hull and detonate. But the mine would be much larger than a buzz droid, and thus easier to detect and target. Also the mine wont be as ambulatory as a swarm of droids would be. A 12 GT mine going off in a remote area of a multi-kilometer battleship; could be far less crippling than say a small swarm of buzz droids disabling the your: shields, sensor, comm, or propulsion control systems!

Think about the Hoth, an flight of TIE bombers make a run over the theater shield and eject buzz droids rather that thermal detonators. Timed right the droids could penetrate the shield directly above the shield generator and take it out.

The opportunitys for subtle forms of sabatoge are tremendous. The buzz droid is just another type of munition. But its greatest benefit is the droid brain. It can make adjustments for 'human' error. Such as targeting error and possible friendly fire accidents.

[Darth Wong]

Don't be a moron. A shield's ability to redirect energy has nothing to do with the ship's power output, and could easily be far greater than the ship's power output. Do you think that a mirror can't possibly reflect 1000 watts of sunlight because it would heat up? Do you understand why a heat pump can pump more watts of heat into a house than it actually draws in electricity?

Once again, I find myself wishing that people on the Internet were prohibited from using scientific terminology unless they actually had some familiarity with the subject.

Not that I'm defending Shadow's logic (or math), but do we know (or have any reason to believe) that generating whatever "fields" make up the deflector shields would not consume much power (though even if they do consume alot of power, I somehow doubt they routinely consume a massive fraction of a ship's powerplant anyhow) Just curious.

We don't need specific evidence that it's not happening. In order to defeat the argument, we need only point that out it is not necessary.

[NRS Guardian]

No, the buzz droids were not designed specifically to take out Jedi; at least not according to ROTS:ICS.

ROTS: ICS wrote:

Launched from modified tri-fighters and other vessels, these guided buzz droid missiles buzz-droid missiles can outturn and outrun any manned starship.

Each buzz droid's brain is loaded with the design schematics of a vast range of starships and military targets, enabling them to identify weak points.

So, buzz droids are not stupid. They are simply a highly specialized weapons system. They're intended targets are not likely to be tiny starfighters, but capital ships, orbital sations and theater sheilded military installations.

Tell it to Alan Bolte I was just conceding to him that they probably were designed primarily for use against Jedi. The ROTS: ICS also wrote

During the Battle of Coruscant, Confederacy tri-fighters defend Grievous's stricken flagship by harassing Jedi attackers with special new ordnance.

which when taken with what happens onscreen implies that Buzz Droids are only used against Jedi. Also, Jedi don't just fly Eta-2 Actis Interceptors, the ICS mentions a Jedi flying a naval bomber, then there could be Jedi in the Venators, and as seen on film some Jedi still fly the Delta-7 Aethersprite.

This make a great deal of sense. Take a typical SW warship: its ray and particle shielded, swathed in armor capable of taking nuke hits, and has a fire control suite capable of rendering missile weapons all but useless. Now enter the buzz droid: the missile detonate at a distance from the target vessel, but within it flight path. The droids fire retro thrusters (as described in ROTS: ICS), and their low relative velocity allows them to slip through the particle shields. At which point the droids proceed to soft kill the vessel, by destroying sesor arrays, communications aerial, weapons arrays, sheild projectors, etc.

Now you could say why not make the space equivalent of a mobile mine. Ie. attach to the hull and detonate. But the mine would be much larger than a buzz droid, and thus easier to detect and target. Also the mine wont be as ambulatory as a swarm of droids would be. A 12 GT mine going off in a remote area of a multi-kilometer battleship; could be far less crippling than say a small swarm of buzz droids disabling the your: shields, sensor, comm, or propulsion control systems!

Think about the Hoth, an flight of TIE bombers make a run over the theater shield and eject buzz droids rather that thermal detonators. Timed right the droids could penetrate the shield directly above the shield generator and take it out.

The opportunitys for subtle forms of sabatoge are tremendous. The buzz droid is just another type of munition. But its greatest benefit is the droid brain. It can make adjustments for 'human' error. Such as targeting error and possible friendly fire accidents.

Actually, the ROTS:ICS specifically says that its the combination of thrusters and their shielded protective shell that allow them to get through shields. Also, capital ship hull plating is so thick, and the ships themselves so large that it would literally take hundreds or more Buzz Droids to have any appreciable effect. Besides a Venator could just send out droids or clonetroopers to clean them off the hull. Also, most of the systems that you're saying Buzz Droids could disable on a capital ship are under meters of hull plating designed to withstand at least hundreds of gigatons, so a Buzz Droid would first have to get through the armour before it could do much.

[Alan Bolte]

No, I agree with Spartan. For some reason I was only thinking in a fighter-to-fighter sense. There's hardly ever a reason to disable rather than destroy a fighter other than when it's carrying someone important like a Jedi. Ships and ground targets, on the other hand, could very well be vulnerable to this type of attack. The armor is quite useless against a buzz droid because it will most likely be going for surface targets in the first place - shield projectors, sensors, weapons, etc. Further, a buzz droid could find access points and enter the ship, whereas a warhead of that size could only explode, and probably not very powerfully (relative to other SW munitions, of course). The more subtle sabotage a droid might be capable of could very well be more dangerous than just blowing something up - take a shield projector: If a warhead is headed for that, the ship will probably notice, and prepare to adjust other projectors to compensate. On the other hand, a buzz droid might very well find a way to disable it without even going near it, and possibly in a way that wouldn't be noticed until the ship is taking heavy damage.

[NRS Guardian]

I see your point. I didn't consider all the ways they could get in without having to cut through meters of hull plating. Heck in a full scale battle they could just enter through hull breaches made by allied warships. Also, while like any piece of good combat machinery capital ships have multiple redundancies and protect as much important equipment as possible, there's always stuff that can't be protected well due to armour impeding the equipment's function. Plus, the important thing is that Buzz Droids have the potential to do more damage than any other ordnance that can be loaded onto a starfighter missile, and the ability to get through shielding conventional starfighter weapons can't give Buzz Droids an important role. Also, they allow starfighters to be more threatening than they otherwise would be.

[Ender]

With all that power generated by such a small craft would not the fighter be glowing like a fireball in the atmosphere as the excess heat comes in contact with surrounding air ? What about the pilot, there has to be some amazing insulator between him and the powerplanet.

ARC-170 pilot in Coruscant sky imitating the human torch : "Flame On !"

It isn't automatically dumping all that heat, that's just the maximum rate at which the energy can be reradiated.

[Ender]

Perhaps that is a figure that wasn't included in the ROTS:ICS, but was left in notes or something?

That would depend entirely on
1) Authors notes ending up in the holocron
2) Dr Saxton leaving his notes behind.

We know Michael Kube Mc Dowel did both (stuff about the ships he vreated popped up in CTD, though one ship name tweaked), so it is possible.