Who is more over-confident really, the Rebels or the Imps?

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Who is more overconfident?

Rebels
12
31%
Imps
19
49%
About the same.
8
21%
 
Total votes: 39

FOG3
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Post by FOG3 »

RThurmont wrote:What keeps the Empire so successful inspite of this massive, stupid arrogance seems to be the officers that know how to deal with it, and have learned how to underpromise and overdeliver, and manage their operations as efficiently as possible. General Tagge, General Veers, and the lower-ranked officer who warned Tarkin of the dangers of remaining on board the Death Star come to mind.
Okay here's a question: do you carry Potassium Iodide pills on you at all times? (If you have no clue what those are, or why you'd have them on you, I can practically gurantee the answer is no.)

Remember the Imperials aren't stupid because they didn't whip out their magical handy dandy script, and find out what the Rebels were up to, the freak occurences planned, and all aces up their sleeve. Effectively zero probabilities are less probable then you needing said pills if you happen to be in certain larger countries. One cannot fault them for not having a mysto magic ball to gaze into to future. I don't consider it arrogant for stand outside on a clear day and believe they aren't going to get struck by lightning. That doesn't mean there isn't a finite possibility of that happening.

With Palpatine the Force basically betrayed him. ("Everything is proceeding as I have forseen." Force: That's what you think.)
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Post by RThurmont »

If you can describe building a massive, planet-destroying superweapon and not bothering to equip it with decent anti-starfighter defenses, and then refusing to evacuate it against the direct reccommendation of one of your most competent subordinates, as not being arrogant, I don't know what is.

The Imperials were very professional by-and-large, so don't get me wrong, we never see them make Federation-style lapses of judgement (if the Empire actually used a warp core ::shudder::, you can darn well bet it would eject if ordered to do so), but they do still tend to screw up in some pretty big areas. The attitude of invincibility that members of their leadership assume was directly exploited by the Rebel Alliance more than once.

Oh, and for the record, I don't carry potassium iodide, although hopefully in a few years times my firm's competitors will increasingly feel tempted to do exactly that.
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Post by FOG3 »

The Imperials were very professional by-and-large, so don't get me wrong, we never see them make Federation-style lapses of judgement (if the Empire actually used a warp core ::shudder::, you can darn well bet it would eject if ordered to do so), but they do still tend to screw up in some pretty big areas. The attitude of invincibility that members of their leadership assume was directly exploited by the Rebel Alliance more than once.
And that required:
DS1: The Hand of God... err Force to deliver the Son of the Chosen One unto them barely trained, because they couldn't be bothered to even try to maintain security of their base. Even then the Hand... err Force had to once more intervene to get the son of the Chosen One to make the shot.

Even then the Imperials immediately have the design run over again and the flaw removed. Not to mention revamping their entire fleet to improve defenses vs starfighters.

Hardly overconfident on the Imperial side, despite it being a freak occurence. Remember the size of the Death Star, the surface damage they were doing to the surface was not really significant when you remember that. Now what was stupid is Tarkin not launching the TIEs, but Lucas would sort of be Out of Luck if he had. The Rebels on the other hand could have been competant without basically destroying the entire story. Might have made it better really.

Hoth: The Imperials playing it cautious and not just BDZ the surrounding countryside, because Lord Vader wanted Skywalker alive. The rebels still get their butts thoroughly kicked.

Only won in the sense of taking down some AT-ATs and supporting vehicles.

DS 2: The Hand of... err Force saw to it Palpy was getting blindsinded through the Force, and the rebels just happened to have one fluke after another happen in their favor.
RThurmont wrote:If you can describe building a massive, planet-destroying superweapon and not bothering to equip it with decent anti-starfighter defenses, and then refusing to evacuate it against the direct reccommendation of one of your most competent subordinates, as not being arrogant, I don't know what is.
Turbolaser towers.
The surfaces of the two operational Death Stars were defended by countless turbolaser and laser cannon emplacements of various power levels. Two known models exhibited fire rates of at least one blast per second. The distribution and character of Death Star I's emplacements was skewed towards a defense against capital ships because the designers had assumed that no starfighter attack could pose a serious threat to the battle station. Enemy starfighters were to be either ignored or swept away by the station's complement of TIE fighters.

The poverty of anti-starfighter defenses was corrected for Death Star II, with a substantial increase in the total density of guns and the proportion of lighter weapons with improved fire-control. Possibly the greatest concentration of turbolaser towers was in the vicinity of Emperor Palpatine's private observation tower, where the batteries were spaced only a few hundred metres apart. If the towers were spread over the entire station's surface at this density, and if the station was completed, then the total number of turbolaser towers would exceed a hundred million. Realistically, the region near Palpatine's tower must be more heavily defended than most, so the real total number is probably only a matter of millions rather than hundreds of millions.

In the new edition of A New Hope, rebel starfighters flying above the surface are seen to come under fire when they are at such a height that the battle station horizon shows significant curvature. The turbolaser fire was quite accurate, nearly hitting the fighters despite the fact that it is a heavy weapon intended for larger and less nimble targets. This means that the effective range of anti-captial ship turbolasers is no less than a few dozen kilometres.
Star Wars Technical Commentaries
Oh, and for the record, I don't carry potassium iodide, although hopefully in a few years times my firm's competitors will increasingly feel tempted to do exactly that.
Now to be honest I don't where your really are, but if you're in the US after minimal warning of potential terrorist use of nuclear weapons has been brought and you aren't carrying potassium iodide you are IMHBHAO around, if not more then, a 1,000x more arrogant and overconfident then Tarkin before the DS1 blew up. Tarkin is not Mr. I-See-The-Future I would remind you, and everything he had access to indicated there was no serious danger. Not to mention how it'd look if he had not been on the bridge at his moment of triumph.

Frankly you remove Skywalker from the equation, and Tarkin would have wiped them out with only minimal surface damage to show for it. Those X-wings weren't doing anything meaningful, and the non-Son-of-the-Chosen-One pilot's could _not_ make the shot. Find something else to harp on.
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Post by consequences »

Noble Ire wrote:
Admiral Drason wrote:Didn't it take the NR 2 years before they even had a declaration of war against the Vong? Even if it wasn't that long, they seemed to be suing for peace against an openly genocidal foe seems to be a bit overconfident
Actually, the ruling council discounted them as irrelevent space pirates until they had destroyed and occupied several major Outer Rim worlds and were threatening trade lanes. And they did try to sue for peace. The Caamasi negotiator was ritually sacrificed. Only after that did they really get it.
Actually, not even then. After that, many of them still blamed the Jedi, and large numbers of cretinous morons in the Senate believed the YV when they said that they only had a beef with Jedi.

Technically, the turning point only came in Star By Star, when Borssk Fey'lya of all people picks his moment to take a stand against the YV's blatant hostile actions, and swings popular support enough to make it pretty much stick.
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Post by Tychu »

i mean Tarkin should have gotten of his high horse during the battle of Yavin. we all know the quote "leave? in our momment of triumph? ...."

the fact that every damn Imp says Rebel Scum
Darth Vader fully beliving that with Lukes help they can overthrow the Emperor
The Empire sending a fleet of warships to crush the Rebels at Hoth
and also take notice the Rebels know damn well they cant win so they flee (chalk one up in the Rebels favor ::POLL"")
The Empeoror crackling with laughter during the battle of Endor.
Imps call the New Republic the Rebels

Impa are bragands and full of it
the Rebels know where they stand, thats why they won the Galactic Civil War
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Post by Civil War Man »

Tychu wrote:the fact that every damn Imp says Rebel Scum
Would it have worked better if they just called the Rebels terrorists? After all, they had a number of operatives like Winter who infiltrated various Imperial facilities and mapped them out so their bombs could do the most amount of damage. If the shoe fits...
Darth Vader fully beliving that with Lukes help they can overthrow the Emperor
You forgot the part Vader said before entreating Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor...
"Join me, and I will complete your training."

Fully trained Dark Side Luke + Darth Vader = More than a match for Palpatine.
The Empire sending a fleet of warships to crush the Rebels at Hoth
Um...how is it overconfident to send an entire fleet of the most advanced warships in the galaxy to crush a major insurgency's base?
and also take notice the Rebels know damn well they cant win so they flee (chalk one up in the Rebels favor ::POLL"")
In the meantime they merrily engage in a ground battle for the base, but apparently did not bother to collect enough intel on Imperial military capabilities to know that their speeder blasters were not powerful enough to defeat their opponent's heavy armor.
The Empeoror crackling with laughter during the battle of Endor.
Why wouldn't he cackle? Everything was going well at that moment.
Plus, someone here (Stravo, IIRC. Correct me if I'm mistaken) once postulated that one of Palpatine's Force focusing techniques involved getting in a cackling mood.
Imps call the New Republic the Rebels
And for a long time the United States refused to recognize the legitimacy of the People's Republic of China. You know why? Because they were enemies.
Impa are bragands and full of it
the Rebels know where they stand, thats why they won the Galactic Civil War
I didn't realize basing the entire war effort on a series of all-or-nothing gambles that only succeeded through fortunate coincidences and the involvement of Force-sensitive individuals was the definition of "knowing where you stand".
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Post by Edward Yee »

the Rebels know where they stand, thats why they won the Galactic Civil War
No, Tychu, I attribute that to deus ex machina -- umm, I mean, the Hand of Lucas -- umm, I mean...

:roll:

P.S. It's why I like the Empire - far less convenient deus ex machinas.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Edward Yee wrote:
the Rebels know where they stand, thats why they won the Galactic Civil War
No, Tychu, I attribute that to deus ex machina -- umm, I mean, the Hand of Lucas -- umm, I mean...

:roll:

P.S. It's why I like the Empire - far less convenient deus ex machinas.
Isn't there a difference between incredible luck and deus ex machina? I mean its not like the Rebellion had Voyager swoop in and crack the Death Star's quantum inversion field with its poloron flux capacitor enabling free mechion ions in ambient space to coaless, triggering the formation of subspace wormhole that destroyed the battle station. :P

The Empire never used them though? What about the Reborn Emperor and his force storms.
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Post by Civil War Man »

Noble Ire wrote:The Empire never used them though? What about the Reborn Emperor and his force storms.
Um...isn't it only a deus ex machina when the plot devices fixes the conflict?
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Post by Noble Ire »

Civil War Man wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:The Empire never used them though? What about the Reborn Emperor and his force storms.
Um...isn't it only a deus ex machina when the plot devices fixes the conflict?
\

It all depends upon your point of view. :wink:
Techically, if he hadn't been stopped, Palpatine's storms could have ended the conflict, just not in the desired way.
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