Anyone notice that General Grevious's henchmen kick ass?

[Doctor Doom]

fighting a magna droid and fighting another powerful jedi are on two seperate levels.

Your point being? I gave you on-screen evidence that your claim that Jedi do not cause collateral damage is false. Besides which, the fact that it was a duel between two powerful Jedi PROVES my point. In the duel with the Magnaguards, the Jedi KNEW they could cause collateral damage, but the droids weren't that big a threat, so they held back so as not to cause collateral damage. Whereas in the Mustafar duel, both considered the other too great a threat to hold back, and thus they caused collateral damage. This is based on on-screen, canon evidence. Unlike your theory.

we don't know what would have happened if the instruments were not touched, the fight could have ended sooner or longer. Regardless, fighting another jedi who has a lightsabre is much different than fighting magnaguard

First of all, it is quite clear that the fight would have gone on longer. Both the movie and the novelization show that Obi-Wan was being constantly pushed back by Anakin, as per his fighting style. The only reason Obi-Wan won was because he was able to grab the high-ground, which was the end result of the fight that occured along the lava flow, which resulted from the destruction of the facility, which resulted from the shields being down, which resulted from the destruction of the consoles by the lightsabers. The connection is quite clear.

"in tune with the Force" != the force is creating a strategy to adopt by Obi to take-over the bridge, while at the same time, realizing (the force that is) that anakin is not using the force to guide him and that palpy is in danger, AND that grievous is a danger. The term is loosely worded.

The novelization is quite clear that the Force was guiding Obi-Wan's actions. Ergo, if anyone was creating a strategy, it was the Force, not Obi-Wan or Anakin.

this is where the entire theory falls apart on your side. So both anakin and obi-wan were taking a different approach relative to how they were using the Force. Yet both of them seemed to take the exact or close to the exact amount of time to destroy the magnaguard. Why in the hell would the FORCE want obi-want to take 36 damn seconds to kill the thing? Why would anakin who WASN'T using the force want to take that long? It isn't syncronized swimming!

The Force was guiding Obi-Wan's actions, it states so quite clearly in the novelization. This is not my theory, it is canon. The only theory I have expressed is that Anakin acted in coordination with Obi-Wan, which is supported by the fact that the two have been fighting as a team for years. Unfortunately for you, my theory is supported by canon evidence, whereas yours is mere speculation.

I am not contradicting myself at all, i'm saying its stupid for obi-wan to have moved away from palpy,

You were indeed contradicting yourself. You claim it is stupid for Obi-Wan to move away from Palpatine, and it is stupid for Anakin to move towards Palpatine. This is in spite of the fact that not only was the Force guiding Obi-Wan's actions as per the novelization, but the fact that their strategy WORKED. They won that encounter, remember?

he had no idea if there were other droids coming up from behind the bridge, maybe 20 more magnaguards, regardless he had no idea, proof of this is when anakin and obiwan backed into an elevator without looking and there were 10 shitty droids in there, it surprised them.

Wrong. Read the novelization. As soon as Obi-Wan walked onto the bridge, and throughout that entire fight scene, he was in tune, through the Force, to EVERY object in that room. Not so with the elevator.

Those things would matter if it was say, anakin compared to a 13 year old padwan. But its not the case! Anakin is the one who took 30+ seconds, and obiwan was the one that took 30+ seconds, and then another jedi takes on 20 of them, killing a few of them in the process.? It doesn't matter if she was 'giving ground', she was still doing battle with them,

It does matter if she was "giving ground." Remeber every Jedi has a differnet fighting style, which work better or worse depending on the situation. Shaak Ti's fighting style happened to be favorable in that particular situation. Just as Anakin's fighting style was preferable to Obi-Wan in the duel against Count Dooku.

that was a lot of fluff for nothing. Anakin and obiwan weren't injured, the other jedi wasn't injured (and if the jedi was, oh god...even more of a contradiction) we know this already, so all the mention of shields this and that, i made a simple analogy, and you tried to turn the analogy into something that isn't relevant to WHY I made the analogy in the first place. I know you were trying to show that circumstances do take a toll, but in this case there isn't any proof that they were holding back, and why the force would WANT obi-want to take along time, makes no
sense.

Obi-Wan's actions were being controlled by the Force. They were in a close quarters environment, and it is known that they can cause collateral damage if they flail around wildly. Therefore, they held back. This is canon.

no you said he was in tune with the force, if you can give me an exact quote of the novel saying that the force was strategizing, then yes I will conceed that point, if it just says it was guiding his actions, that could as easily mean his lightsabre moves.

The novel does not say that the Force was strategizing. But it does say quite specifically that the Force was guiding Obi-Wan's actions. If you cannot accept this, that is your failing, and not my own.

Irrelevant, relative to your answer the FORCE should have KNOWN how to fight them. So thats not helping you. However it fits my theory perfectly, the magnaguards were just damn good.

Unfortunately, your theory is directly contradicted by canon evidence that I have presented earlier in this post. Namely, the novelization's depiction of the bridge fight scene and the duel on Mustafar.

Obi-wan and Anakin had seen so much combat through the clonewars, studied their opponents, practiced lightsabre form, fought other jedi, your telling me that a single magnaguard was going to be trouble, especially if the magna sucked dick like you are suggesting? It doesn't make sense

What doesn't make sense is your miraculous ability to create strawmen fallacies and ignore my arguments. Please read the rest of this post, I won't bother repeating myself, as I have already done so numerous times.

That is a mute point, regardless of WHERE the strengths of the magnaguard lay, they still take time to destroy and pose a threat to the jedi, even jedi make mistakes.

It is most certainly NOT a mute point. The fact is, the Magnaguards are shown to be stronger on the defense then on the offense. Therefore, against two Jedi who are obviously holding back to avoid collateral damage (according to the canon evidence I have already presented), it would make sense the duel would take a nominal number of seconds longer then it otherwise would.

force user vs force user != force user vs robot

See earlier in this post. Not only is this a red herring, but it further augments my own argument.

[Doctor Doom]

Re: The Silence and I

Unless of course the droids are only defensive, with crappy attacks, but frankly, a quarter staff is an offensive weapon first, defensive second. It allows two attacks to a sword's one, and has greater reach and mass (yes, this is important here despite the massless lightsabres--more so possibly).

Actually, it is made quiter clear that the Magnaguards are stronger on teh defense then on the offense. It has been shown that even in larger numbers, it is difficult for them to land a blow on an enemy, yet they do manage to last longer against Jedi then any other droid. Ergo, strong on defense, weak on offense (at least against a Jedi opponent).

Do you see the problem now? If one droid can defend against Anikin for 30 seconds despite having limited maneuvering room for its staff then it is somewhat silly to think that any one Jedi on Anikin or Kenobi's level or less can do battle with so many of these things without, uh, dying. Quickly.

There is no problem. Shaak Ti was in a completely different situation. Besides the fact that she was in a situation that was favorable to her combat style, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, she had no need to "hold back" for fear of causing collateral damage. However, Anakin and Obi-Wan are quite obviously holding back. The fact that they didn't use Force powers on the droids, as Obi-Wan did in his battle against General Grievous, in which he quite obviously was not holding back, is evidence enough of this.

Imagine if you will, some dozen or so droids and one Jedi. The droids can only effectively engage the Jedi with four or less of them, lest they get too much in each others' way. Now, against 2 droids I can see a clever Jedi maneuvering to keep both droids facing her, and so prevent them from flanking. But against so many? All you need is one droid in front, being good at not dying, and one or two more at the sides/back, and you have a dead Jedi. The one in front is too skilled to ignore, to stop it from killing you requires most of your concentration, a Jedi cannot defend from so many angles for long.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, this is exactly the type of combat situation that Shaak Ti's particular lightsaber combat style thrives in. The fact is, the Magnadroids were in Shaak Ti's element, thus the fact that she caused more casualties then Obi-Wan or Anakin.

On top of which, you earlier claimed that the Magnadroids on the bridge had to hold back because they were using the equivalent of quarterstaffs. They would have to hold back even more in a situation where they are being crowded by allied units wielding similar weapons. Against an opponent with a lightsaber with no reason to hold back.

[Crazedwraith]

1) 1 on 1, Manga vs Jedi. Result, the droids, fighting at a disadvantage relative to the Jedi, are hard to take down; even attack minded Anikin takes approximately 1/2 a minute to destroy his. The Jedi have zero reason to play nice, and some compelling reasons not to.

Except perhaps not wanting to be vented into the vacuum of space? Or damage the valuble control equipment in the ship, so they can control it if they need to?

However, as I haven't seen the Shaak Ti fight in a while I'll concede the argument. Though I do recall the Magna's got some blows in, but didn't mange to deal enough damage to keep the Jedi down.

[Meest]

Here are clips of the whole bridge fight, edited anything that didn't involve direct fighting. At the start Obi charges right into both of them. Can already see Palps being escorted further away as Anakin clears nearby droids.



Cuts to Anakin backing off and heading in Palps' direction, coincidence or planned he seems content with being defensive at this point. Palpatine's guards look to be trying to get out of the way, but stay pretty passive and probably just ordered to keep their prized hostage safe.



Obi jumping to a lower wider area, he too seems content with just countering/parrying. Two non combat bridge droids come take a closer look. Planned or not it does seem to be distracting the bridge crew.



Back to Anakin still moving towards Palps, who is getting escorted out of the main bridge area. Anakin still pretty defensive, only 1-2 real strikes that are mostly counterstrikes.




Obi dodging a thrust and pinning the staff on the next swing and off with his head. Casually walks away, doesn't sprint or jump to Anakin.



I cut out the part of the droid headless twirling the staff. Obi even though right back at him, continues to parry first then counterstrike at openings (fits his style).



Anakin at the mouth of the door, and surprise 3-4 swings and Magna is toast. Just like Obi still pretty casual, doesn't even show concern with 2 armed droids behind him.



Same thing with Obi, finishes the job and still no real urgency shown.



Hope that wasn't too much, this is the smallest I could get them without sacrificing watchable framerates. But seems to me that the MagnaGuards are just a nuisance. And if it was Anakin and Obi's first time dealing with them while trying to make sure Palps stays alive their caution is warranted. The both deal death/crippling blows on their first real attempts, I can post the whole clip if needed, most of the blows are defensive parrys.

The final count for Obi swing wise is 17, with the 8th blow being the beheading blow. Anakin's count looked to be 20, the first 3 are obscured. The sequence is roughly 40sec total time (including all non battle footage). Obi beheads his at 11secs total oncreen fight time, and takes 6-7sec more to finish. Anakin takes roughly 10secs onscreen to kill his (right after Obi beheads), can tack on the 11secs it took Obi to do that and you got 21sec max. That's assuming time has passed between cuts.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Meest, do you have ANNYY freaking clue how long that took too load on a Dial up????

[Knife]

Meest, do you have ANNYY freaking clue how long that took too load on a Dial up????

Hahah, showed up faster than some of the board buttons on broadband.

[Doctor Doom]

Thanks, Meest. Those are nice.

[Lukedanieljames]

ABSOLUTELY great!

thanks so much for those posts!

Unfortunately, when General Grievous yells "Stay at your stations!" you can hear the lightsabres fighting in the background, but when you watch them actually fighting you can't hear Grievous yell that, so there is a bit of time missing in actual combat, another 3-4 seconds, and a few more swings to each jedi.

Anyway, look at the video where Anakin is backing up towards palpy, that is some pretty damn complicated manouvering by each combatent, hardly an 'annoyance'

I mean 20 swings is a lot of damn swings

anyway, now everyone can see.

[Doctor Doom]

Are you kidding? You can see quite clearly in those videos that the two Jedi are expending almost no effort in defeating the Magnadroids. Especially Anakin.

If the Magnadroids really were such a threat, as you claim, why did the Jedi not use any Force powers or, for that matter, any of the lightsaber tricks we have seen them use against more powerful enemies?

And I assume you concede the other arguments, as you did not respond to them.

[Sarevok]

One thing I did not understand about the magnadroids is why the Jedi did not try using force powers on them before closing in for melee attacks. They could knock out droids with force pushes as Kit Fisto disabling 3P0s battle droid body in AOTC shows. Also they could have pulled the droids staff away leaving it much more vulnerable to lightsabers,

[Noble Ire]

One thing I did not understand about the magnadroids is why the Jedi did not try using force powers on them before closing in for melee attacks. They could knock out droids with force pushes as Kit Fisto disabling 3P0s battle droid body in AOTC shows. Also they could have pulled the droids staff away leaving it much more vulnerable to lightsabers,

I would imagine that they could and probably did do that sometimes, but IG models were vastly more physically adept than their B1 counter parts. A simple Force push might only knock them off balance, not take them out of the fight, and while a Jedi could expliot that, Magnaguards seem to attack largely in numbers, thus splitting a Jedi's attention.

[Lukedanieljames]

Are you kidding? You can see quite clearly in those videos that the two Jedi are expending almost no effort in defeating the Magnadroids. Especially Anakin.

If the Magnadroids really were such a threat, as you claim, why did the Jedi not use any Force powers or, for that matter, any of the lightsaber tricks we have seen them use against more powerful enemies?

Its hard to do a trick on a staff weapon, there were no tricks that were used vs darth maul with a similar weapon. It took until the end of the fight for obi-wan to finally land a lucky shot to split the double ended lightsabre. Quijon couldn't manage it, and he was going 1on1 with maul all the way down the corridore.

And I assume you concede the other arguments, as you did not respond to them.

I've already addressed all the issues, we've been repeating the same things for 3 pages.

[Cykeisme]

Its hard to do a trick on a staff weapon, there were no tricks that were used vs darth maul with a similar weapon. It took until the end of the fight for obi-wan to finally land a lucky shot to split the double ended lightsabre. Quijon couldn't manage it, and he was going 1on1 with maul all the way down the corridore.

Red herring. Their difficulty in engaging Darth Maul in combat was more an effect of his ability level (he's a Sith Lord) rather than the fact that he had a "staff weapon".

MagnaGuards hardly "kick ass". It takes Jedi some time to kill them, particularly when it's the first time a particular Jedi is fighting them, and they're pretty good at blocking with those electrostaffs. On the other hand they have almost no hope of injuring a Jedi even with massive numerical superiority, and they almost invariably end up in pieces, given time.
They do, however, make great bodyguards and hindrances to slow down Jedi while Grievous gets about his business of doing whatever he needs to do.

[Cos Dashit]

Fighting someone/thing that has a double-ended weapon (like those buzz-staffs and Maul's lightsabre) requires a different fighting technique. You are dealing with two threats, which would require quicker and more blocking.

This is probably why it took longer for the Jedi to take out those Magnaguards. While it may have not been difficult for them, as shown in above clips, it did require them to block much more than would be normal. However, once Anakin and Obi-Wan got in the odd hit, they were easy to dispatch.

[Isolder74]

The Magnaguards would not make a good infantry fighting force by the nature of their over specialization. They are obviously designed to kill Jedi. Low level jedi appear to have a hard time fighting them and they have two heads to make the head shot less of a lethal kill. The Droid obviously has touble fighting high level Jedi like Anakin and Obi Wan.

Grevius himself folds quickly to Mace when they face off. The entire design of the droid is to intimidate the Jedi it faces into making an mistake.

[Jadeite]

Shaak Ti holding off 20 of them in Clone Wars is pretty much just another example of the Jedi wank we see all throughout that series.

Using it to say "See? Magnaguards suck!" is picking and choosing.

[Noble Ire]

Shaak Ti holding off 20 of them in Clone Wars is pretty much just another example of the Jedi wank we see all throughout that series.

Using it to say "See? Magnaguards suck!" is picking and choosing.

That is a good point. After all, Clone Wars is canonically a legend in-universe, a retelling of the events of the war as a Rebel propaganda. Use that particular event and gauging it against ROTS is rather silly.

[Doctor Doom]

Its hard to do a trick on a staff weapon, there were no tricks that were used vs darth maul with a similar weapon. It took until the end of the fight for obi-wan to finally land a lucky shot to split the double ended lightsabre. Quijon couldn't manage it, and he was going 1on1 with maul all the way down the corridore.

Sorry, the Jedi DID use Force powers during the Darth Maul duel. Oops, there goes your argument.

I've already addressed all the issues, we've been repeating the same things for 3 pages.

You haven't addressed any of the issues I raised in my last post.

This is the third case of your throwing out canon evidence that refutes your point in this debate. The first being your refusal to acknowledge the fight on Utapau in which Obi-Wan uses the Force to immediately knock out a number of Magnadroids, and now you are throwing out the Mustafar duel and the novelization's depiction of the bridge duel.

Using it to say "See? Magnaguards suck!" is picking and choosing.

You are misrepresenting the argument. Lukedanieljames was trying to prove that that particular scene was a contradiction and, as thus, should be thrown out. Our argument revolves around proving that it isn't an outright contradiction, which more or less comes down to showing that the Magnaguards are not the uber combatants he would want them to be.

[lance]

Shaak Ti holding off 20 of them in Clone Wars is pretty much just another example of the Jedi wank we see all throughout that series.

Using it to say "See? Magnaguards suck!" is picking and choosing.

Could it be that Greivous' private body guards were a higher quality than the 20 held off by Shaak Ti? They were stated to be trained individually or something.

[Ghost Rider]

Just a wee necroing for a topic that has pretty much answered itself.