"The Imperial populace doesn't have a problem with identityless hordes of troops."
Not until those troops are their sons.
"Tax protests are answered by landing large vessels on the protests."
[sarcasm on] Really? Isn't everyone happy watching their money being turned into the superweapon of the week? [sarcasm off]
"Pelleaon ran away to join the Republic/Imperial Navy."
No problem with that.People do not stop choosing the military career under dictatorship.But how many would sign up for being genetically altered and brainwashed by some stupid machine?
"Moreover, with such an enormous populace, you’ll always have more willing and able recruits then clones."
This is the reason for which the starfleet and the garrisons are manned by recruits.
"My point is, they'd use clones for invasions, boarding actions, and any kind of police action where you have a probability of atrocities—but it’d be a waste of money to do that where the stormtrooper garrisons and SDs spent most of their time stopping smugglers and keeping pirates in check and handling crime and minor alien incursions on the galactic disk’s edge."
That is not a great explanation.Cost is not an issue,availability of clones either.Maybe they have opened the stormtrooper corp to recruits for propaganda,although this is not a good explanation either.I have not been able to find anything better so far.And I doubt that anyone can,so we have to use similar explanations.Better than nothing of course.
"And I don’t get the fuss about the Death Star plans. Geonosians contracted, never completed project because of war, Palpy later restarted it, Rebels managed to get schematics from multiple sources. I don’t know why that’s a brain-twister."
Wasn't the death star designed at the Maw by Qwi Xux, Tol Sivron and Bevel Lemelisk (and there are others versions if I recall correctly)?
What did they do ? Replacing the toilets for the geonosians with those for humans?
"Ugh. The idea is to make rationalizations and fixed, but thank you for the hyper-purist Bob Brown moment."
Hey, I do not have anything against the prequels.In effects I like them as much as the OT,if not more.I simply do not like the EU.
"One, its useless to ponder on the idea that Empire just folded. It didn’t happen unless you wholely discount the WHOLE EU, which is generally not done in the forum and we usually look at Official beyond the Canon."
Of course.It is however funny how Lucas seems to have fun making mock of the EU.Because you have to admit that SE ROTJ,while it can still be ratonalized as you have done is done without giving a damn shit about what happens in the EU.
"Two, the Republic central government didn’t have an army—no, they had the Jedi and each sector and system maintained its own military…including armies and navies."
The Jedi are not a military.They get their asses kicked as soon as they meet one.And the sector militaries are definitively weaker than the Empire and the new republic.They have not waged war for a millennia,so their military strenght must be at the lowest point.
"Four, if the SW civilization has FTL tech as evolved as it does, why wouldn’t they eventually encounter extragalactic species?"
Yes an extragalactic species with organic technology,fundamentalist mindset and whose civilization is centered around only death and destruction and who enjoys self mutilations.And who "exists outside the force",how could I have forgotten that
"Five, the Yuuzhan Vong purposely chose that period because of its turmoil and destruction. They’d been sitting around for around a century waiting."
Yes,instead of taking over the galxy with a blitzkrieg when it was nearly disarmed under the old republic they attack it when it is well armed.
Yuuzhan Vong must be good strategists.
"Seven, the Unknown Regions, at least to me (though the theory’s credit and rationalization goes to Saxton), is generally accepted to just be diffuse stellar crap wafting around the galaxy that no one bothers with."
And in millennias of hyperdrive travel no one bother to send a few probes there? Mmmm
"Eight, why must the Force always be omnipotent or whatnot?"
The force is not omnipotent.As you may have seen Jedi council members gets their asses kicked by a bunch of droids.But I do not like this kryptonite style crap.After tens of millennias of space travel one would think the Jedi order or someone else would have stumbled on the pets.And that any "bad guy" would keep them as cats.
"At least there's an excuse for the ability: Force-Sensitive predators on the planet."
Force powers give so many advantages to a living being (increasing its chances of survival and reproduction) that by now by evolutionary process there should be entire worlds filled by animals with force powers.Evidently the force does not work in that way.
The EU is filled with crap.I might have to accept it for the debate.I have even some ideas to make it fit with the canon.But I prefer to ignore it as much as I can.
Not clones anymore
Moderator: Vympel
- Admiral Piett
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 823
- Joined: 2002-07-06 04:26pm
- Location: European Union,the future evil empire
- Illuminatus Primus
- All Seeing Eye
- Posts: 15774
- Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
- Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
- Contact:
Do you really think the average person is going to know that their sons are going to be screwed with and manipulated?
I just feel that it would be cheaper, easier, and that recruits are not much less affective then clones to warrant a branch-wide application of clonetroopers. It's impossible to pretend that many aren't there, and it fucks up way too much of the over all continuity. Regardless of the EU's fuckups, I prefer not to throw the overall continuity into the garbage.
If the stormtroopers are all clones, their performance is neglibly better then what a half-way decent government like the Empire could do with recruits. Not mentioning all the dubious loyalties and actions of stormtroopers throughout the EU.
I refuse to discuss the quality and relevency of the EU. If this is going to be a movie canon-only discussion, I conceed and withdraw now. I will not discuss the EU about itself again.
I just feel that it would be cheaper, easier, and that recruits are not much less affective then clones to warrant a branch-wide application of clonetroopers. It's impossible to pretend that many aren't there, and it fucks up way too much of the over all continuity. Regardless of the EU's fuckups, I prefer not to throw the overall continuity into the garbage.
If the stormtroopers are all clones, their performance is neglibly better then what a half-way decent government like the Empire could do with recruits. Not mentioning all the dubious loyalties and actions of stormtroopers throughout the EU.
I refuse to discuss the quality and relevency of the EU. If this is going to be a movie canon-only discussion, I conceed and withdraw now. I will not discuss the EU about itself again.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
- Illuminatus Primus
- All Seeing Eye
- Posts: 15774
- Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
- Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
- Contact:
Already explained that it was probably Sith. All the other bioengineered freak things associated with the Force (usually the Dark Side) were created by the Sith.Force powers give so many advantages to a living being (increasing its chances of survival and reproduction) that by now by evolutionary process there should be entire worlds filled by animals with force powers.Evidently the force does not work in that way.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
- Admiral Piett
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 823
- Joined: 2002-07-06 04:26pm
- Location: European Union,the future evil empire
As soon as they come back at home for a leave they probably would realize that they have been turned into drones.Evidently the stormtrooper training cannot include all that stuff,such as gene therapy and very intensive brainwashing, that you are suggesting.For the recruits the stormtrooper training must be more conventional,which would explain all those stormtroopers who are not so loyal.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Do you really think the average person is going to know that their sons are going to be screwed with and manipulated?
Intensify the forward batteries. I don't want anything to get through
- Illuminatus Primus
- All Seeing Eye
- Posts: 15774
- Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
- Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
- Contact:
So you won't deny that holistically (official + canon) it seems likely that there are a lot of recruits in the stormtroopers corps?Admiral Piett wrote:For the recruits the stormtrooper training must be more conventional,which would explain all those stormtroopers who are not so loyal.
Furthermore I don't know about Lucas' quotes. Taking the infamous one comparing Jango's head-banging to that of a stormtrooper makes little sense--the quote implies that all stormtroopers are all clones of just Jango--which would be quite stupid. During the Clone War there must have been many volunteer soldiers of renown exploits who were genetically and mentally better predisposed toward being a shock trooper. Jango is a loner and independent is really a all-in-one kind of deal for creating the clonetroopers (Jango was also a pilot and would make a good template for scouts/recon/commandos)...but I doubt the Empire would keep using his template and just his template like that quote suggests for however many clones they churned out.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
- Admiral Piett
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 823
- Joined: 2002-07-06 04:26pm
- Location: European Union,the future evil empire
"So you won't deny that holistically (official + canon) it seems likely that there are a lot of recruits in the stormtroopers corps?"
I have not read all the EU.But I bet that somewhere there is written that the stormtroopers or some of them are recruits.So in a Canon + EU debate,yes,there must be at least some recruits.Although I pray that Lucas will screw the EU on this like he has done for the death star plans.
"During the Clone War there must have been many volunteer soldiers of renown exploits who were genetically and mentally better predisposed toward being a shock trooper. Jango is a loner and independent is really a all-in-one kind of deal for creating the clonetroopers (Jango was also a pilot and would make a good template for scouts/recon/commandos)...but I doubt the Empire would keep using his template and just his template like that quote suggests for however many clones they churned out."
The kaminoans are pretty good at cloning.Surely they must be good also at genetic engineering.If they want additional capabilities they can add them.Besides a normal human is not born either shock trooper or commando.If one is very good at piloting this just means that it has better reflexes or god only know what else.These can be engineered.Specializations come from training both for the clones of AOTC than for human recruits.
I have not read all the EU.But I bet that somewhere there is written that the stormtroopers or some of them are recruits.So in a Canon + EU debate,yes,there must be at least some recruits.Although I pray that Lucas will screw the EU on this like he has done for the death star plans.
"During the Clone War there must have been many volunteer soldiers of renown exploits who were genetically and mentally better predisposed toward being a shock trooper. Jango is a loner and independent is really a all-in-one kind of deal for creating the clonetroopers (Jango was also a pilot and would make a good template for scouts/recon/commandos)...but I doubt the Empire would keep using his template and just his template like that quote suggests for however many clones they churned out."
The kaminoans are pretty good at cloning.Surely they must be good also at genetic engineering.If they want additional capabilities they can add them.Besides a normal human is not born either shock trooper or commando.If one is very good at piloting this just means that it has better reflexes or god only know what else.These can be engineered.Specializations come from training both for the clones of AOTC than for human recruits.
Intensify the forward batteries. I don't want anything to get through