General Grievous's death via blaster and the cause

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-09-23 05:07am

We all saw what happened to Grievous when Obi-Wan shot him. The question is, though: did the blaster fire itself do it, or was it the combustion of some flammable element in his body (as suggested by the databank entry.)

The primary evidence in favor of the first possibility is that a.) the novel suggests the damage came from teh blaster instead of via flammables in the gutasc, and b.) the flames were of a distinctly non-persistent nature (they last for a second or so, then go out for three whole seconds before being re-ignited by sustained blaster fire, as suggested by the ROTS revelations main site page.)

Any further comments, speculaton, etc?

My opinion tends to go with the main site's analysis: the ignition was not consistent with the ignition of any sortt of combustible material.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-23 07:53am

I may be wrong but I believe the DVD commentary for that scene talks about the flames representing the sheer power of the blaster.
While that's author's intent that along with analysis of the scene tells me it was the blaster.

Still looked silly though..

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-09-23 11:24am

I was always under the impression that he died because of the shot. I mean he was dead when the damn shot hit his damn heart. Throughout Star Wars we see how powerful the blaster is. I mean it makes a smoking crater in Stormie armor and it creates cool flares against the uniform and skin of Officers. So it just seems to me that when the blaster shot hit organic material it was so hot that the organic body parts just combusted

unspontanious combustion anyone? (yes its spelt wrong but i emphasize the un)

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-23 01:04pm

I'm no expert when it comes to the nature of combustion of materials and how it would actually appear, but note that Grievous' DT-57 Annihilator blaster is supposed to be an abnormally powerful heavy blaster, customized to provide even more shot yield.

Considering what Han's blaster did to the Mos Eisley docking bay walls in ANH, I'm not surprised at the frappelogical effect it had on Grievous' organ sack.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-09-23 01:24pm

Wasn't there a thread about Beru and Owen and if the Stormtrooper blasters burned them to a crisp that also got into Grievous's combustion?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-09-23 01:28pm

havokeff wrote:Wasn't there a thread about Beru and Owen and if the Stormtrooper blasters burned them to a crisp that also got into Grievous's combustion?

Yes, that's true. It was being discussed last year.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-23 01:49pm

Mange wrote:
havokeff wrote:Wasn't there a thread about Beru and Owen and if the Stormtrooper blasters burned them to a crisp that also got into Grievous's combustion?
Yes, that's true. It was being discussed last year.

Off topic: I like the last post of that thread.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-09-23 01:57pm

The thing that suggests combustion is that it doesn't near-instantly cremate the area, but apparently spreads up into his brain, over a relatively long period (working from memory, mind). My impression is that the databank is quite accurate, there. Mind you, the idea of his organs being naturally super-inflammable seems ludicrous. Rather, I imagine(d) some volitile element - uber-capacitors, inflammable preservative, that sort of thing. At least with regards to his brain exploding in a burning gout of flame.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-09-23 02:24pm

Were there any chemicals or such that were helping to maintain the organs, keeping them moist and all, that might have contributed to the combustion?

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-09-23 02:43pm

I think that Grievous' armour funtioned as a sort of oven that cooked his organs. The blaster shots were absorbed by the internal walls of his chest protection, making them very hot. Like in an oven, this heat caused his organs, and eventually the spinal cord and cranium, to burn.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-09-23 03:56pm

NecronLord wrote:The thing that suggests combustion is that it doesn't near-instantly cremate the area,

It wouldn't if the idea Adrian (and the website) mentions: that is. And I fail to see how this "proves" combustion, since combustion can be just as "near-instantly" do that if sufficiently powerful (and is likely to be alot more rapid anyhow.) Or did you forget the fact that the flames are "non-persistant" like Mike's Ep3 page noted?

Instantaneous cremation is basically irrelevant anyhow because an event occuring that fast (espeically if it was concentrated) would create a massive (and probably quite violent) expansion of steam out of the chest cavity (especially if we assume the existence of these "preservative fluids.") Note also that unless the "preservative fluids" are extremely efficient, odds are likely that they'll release alot of waste heat (which might both require more of the reactant and create more noticable effects.)

but apparently spreads up into his brain, over a relatively long period (working from memory, mind).

Yes, which is accounted for by the theory on the Site. (In fact, its what the novel describes when it mentions "energy" chaining up from his chest to his brain, not any chemical reaction.)

My impression is that the databank is quite accurate, there.

No, its not. I checked the "audio commentary" that Cao Cao mentioned - unfortunately its not as literally helpful as he thought, because they describe Grievous' ORGANS as being volatile or highly flammable. No mention of preservative fluids whatsoever (why do they need preserving anyhow? His organs still function! His wheezing and coughing and his own damn death confirm this!) I doubt that "Synthflesh" is any more flammable under normal conditions than regular flesh is.

On the other hand, human flesh (and presumably synthflesh) can burn, but it requires high temperature and a dehydrated body (and the cremation is largely due to the human fats and tisuses... (for contrast, it takes 2 hours of 1700 degree temperature normally to cremate a normal human body. A fraction of that, his organs, say about 10 pounds worth, could take less than ten minutes in principle, but even that's too long for what occurs.) From what I can gather, human flesh requires many hundreds (if not a thousand-plus) degrees to "combust" (probably because you have to rapidly boil away the water content.) So "igniting' the flesh will almost certainly involve a massive input of energy on its own (almost enough to burn the organs anyhow, its likely.)

If the blasters heat the inside of his chest cavity (which is likely to occur) extmreely high temperatures are quite possible, which could account for the extreme rapidity (relatively speaking) of the even with the non-persistant flames.

Mind you, the idea of his organs being naturally super-inflammable seems ludicrous. Rather, I imagine(d) some volitile element - uber-capacitors, inflammable preservative, that sort of thing. At least with regards to his brain exploding in a burning gout of flame.

Any "capacitors" he has that might go off, but then you get the same problem of "energy getting up into his brain". And none of this addresses any of the other problems I mentioned, nor does it excuse the fact you still need a massive amount of energy to create the conditions in which his organs burn to begin with.

Moreover, one has to ask how Grievous is supposed to be combat effective at ALL if he's so readily combustible. The slightest graze from a lightsaber (his chest cavity ain't completely covered you know), rapid heating of his exoskeleton, ,extremely high temperatures (say, like, Mustafar) would all fuck him over extremely bad.

Edit: For that matter, when i look at Grievou's "organ sac" it certainyl doesn't LOOK fluid filled to me...)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-09-23 03:57pm

Cao Cao wrote:I may be wrong but I believe the DVD commentary for that scene talks about the flames representing the sheer power of the blaster.
While that's author's intent that along with analysis of the scene tells me it was the blaster.

Still looked silly though..

as i just noted, I checked (I appreciate the reference) and they say that his organs were "flammable" and "volatile". So that doesn't really help, commentary wise (it just adds to the problem of explaining it.)

Ryushikaze · Post by **Ryushikaze** » 2006-09-23 04:18pm

Well, there are certain volatile chemicals that only go off under the right conditions, right? Could Grievous have been wired to blow, so to speak, with Obi's shot shorting a normally protected circuit that was supposed to have been triggered at Sidious's convenience?

Granted, I have nothing to support that, but knowing Sidi, it sounds like something he might do.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-09-23 04:22pm

Ryushikaze wrote:Well, there are certain volatile chemicals that only go off under the right conditions, right? Could Grievous have been wired to blow, so to speak, with Obi's shot shorting a normally protected circuit that was supposed to have been triggered at Sidious's convenience?

Such as what exactly? And what value (if any) are they goign to be as a "preservative"? (Disregarding the fact his organs re still living and functional and essential to his continued existencec, and despite the fact that his organs are "supposed" to be naturally flammable/volatile, not by some preserving fluid.)

Granted, I have nothing to support that, but knowing Sidi, it sounds like something he might do.

Sidious wouldn't need to. If he wanted to kill Grievous he could get rid of him in alot of other (more simpler) ways than something that could accidentally kill him before his usefulness ends.

Ryushikaze · Post by **Ryushikaze** » 2006-09-23 09:54pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Such as what exactly? And what value (if any) are they goign to be as a "preservative"? (Disregarding the fact his organs re still living and functional and essential to his continued existencec, and despite the fact that his organs are "supposed" to be naturally flammable/volatile, not by some preserving fluid.)

Idunno. I'm just trying to figure out any reason that said organ sacs would be volatile to begin with.

Sidious wouldn't need to. If he wanted to kill Grievous he could get rid of him in alot of other (more simpler) ways than something that could accidentally kill him before his usefulness ends.

A good point. I was considering it might have been in case Grievous got a little too fresh in the capture of Palpy, but you're right about there being simpler and less error prone method in place.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm just playing devil's advocate, and not even very enthusiastivally. I'm really in favor of Grievous's gun being responsible, even though that doesn't quite explain his brain and eyes flaming up.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-09-24 01:12pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The thing that suggests combustion is that it doesn't near-instantly cremate the area,
It wouldn't if the idea Adrian (and the website) mentions: that is. And I fail to see how this "proves" combustion, since combustion can be just as "near-instantly" do that if sufficiently powerful (and is likely to be alot more rapid anyhow.) Or did you forget the fact that the flames are "non-persistant" like Mike's Ep3 page noted?
<snip loads more>

I can't believe you actually took that seriously, and then spent quite some time replying to it. 'Imagined' and 'my impression' remember, I was talking about my reactions in the few seconds of watching it in the cinema - I wasn't proposing any kind of serious theory for it, because I am of the opinion that there's no hypothesis that'll really hold up and explain everything about it (including 'volitile organs' comments, and so forth) in a way that isn't completely laughable. It seems to me that Grievous' death is one of those things in SW that make very little sense and shuold just be written off as 'uncomprehendable' - like planar rings of fire.

Of all the explanations presented, I'd say the one with most merit would be the 'oven' hypothesis - especially in light of the novel's (somewhat ludicrous, survive a fighter bolt to the face indeed) descriptions of his bodily resistance.

Oh, and for clarity, I was talking about the idea of his brain being explosive, be it from 'preservative fluids' or natural as being especially ludicrous. Not of his brain being especially flammable.

As for his combat effectiveness, damned if I know. That said, given his lack of any kind of eye protection, one doubts the designers were all that serious about making him battle ready. They could have left his eyes behind armour plate, and given him external cameras, and made him more durable. As he is, chemical weapons ought to be excellent at killing him. Hell, even the most lowly clone trooper has better NBC protection than Grievous. As for 'the choice' to make his organs explosive, that's predicated on there being another means of preserving them. It's possible they considered making him look intimidating/aestetic a higher priority than making him durable (as I imagine it was for his real designers at Lucasfilm). Hence his partly exposed organs, and visible, reptillian eyes.

EDIT: If I had to advance an actual hypothesis, I'd go with the 'oven' one for his gut-sack, and go with unspecified conduction ('energy chaining up') to the head, and having a similar effect in there.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-09-24 05:53pm

NecronLord wrote:As for his combat effectiveness, damned if I know. That said, given his lack of any kind of eye protection, one doubts the designers were all that serious about making him battle ready. They could have left his eyes behind armour plate, and given him external cameras, and made him more durable. As he is, chemical weapons ought to be excellent at killing him. Hell, even the most lowly clone trooper has better NBC protection than Grievous. As for 'the choice' to make his organs explosive, that's predicated on there being another means of preserving them. It's possible they considered making him look intimidating/aestetic a higher priority than making him durable (as I imagine it was for his real designers at Lucasfilm). Hence his partly exposed organs, and visible, reptillian eyes.

The fact that he was able to survive in space unaided for a non-inconsiderable period of time seems to suggest that his eyes and organs were more fully enclosed and protected than they appear to be. Perhaps his eyes were encased by a thin layer of some clear material, or they were reinforced, artifical facsimilies rather than the real thing.

Either that, or Kaleesh are somehow natually resistant to the pressures of vacuum, even when reduced to their bare, consituent parts.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-09-24 06:08pm

Noble Ire wrote:The fact that he was able to survive in space unaided for a non-inconsiderable period of time seems to suggest that his eyes and organs were more fully enclosed and protected than they appear to be. Perhaps his eyes were encased by a thin layer of some clear material, or they were reinforced, artifical facsimilies rather than the real thing.

Either that, or Kaleesh are somehow natually resistant to the pressures of vacuum, even when reduced to their bare, consituent parts.

Humm. Fair point. Mind you, the time he was out there, I don't think he would be all that severely damaged by the exposure. Given that he apparently had to breathe in some way (hence, Mace crushing his lungs hurting him, {I can see it now: 'Fool! I only keep those for sentimental value!' *Beheads Mace*}, and his coughing)

And, speaking of Grievous' design, given that he can apparently open up his chest to expose his organs, and does so as an intimidation tactic, I suspect part of his design, with exposed organs and eyes, is meant to convey "This is no mere droid, be scared"