Imperial Starfleet the entire fleet?

The Enterpriser · Post by **The Enterpriser** » 2002-12-28 05:47am

Okay this is an informative query, we've heard multiple times in ANH that the Death Star has greater firepower than 1/2 of the Imperial Starfleet. I'm just curious, according to accepted fleet numbers on the BBS, that's a tad bit too high, even the Death Star has it's limitations. Granted the superlaser takes up a lot of power and if we take the conventional systems into account the number is quite big, but 1/2 of the starfleet? come on now. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Also, my theory is that the Starfleet (Imperial) is like the U.S. Army etc. , the Galactic defense force, if this is the case then the 1/2 number could be justified since most of the star destroyers and other smaller vessels would be assigned to sector patrol, they would fall under their jurisdiction then. If so, then they'd resemble the National Guard, which operates under the civilian administration. (of course the Star Destroyers and all ships would still maintain direct command from Imperial Center when necessary).

What do you think?

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-28 05:53am

I don't think there's any evidence for such an organizational structure.

Firstly, the Imperial Starfleet does patrol the sectors of the galaxy, but that doesn't mean they fall under some sort of 'sector' jurisdiction- there's just no mention of it- in addition, the National Guard is an entirely seperate organization from the regular US Army of course, and making an analogy between a naval and ground force is a bit of a stretch.

What is the problem with the 1/2 of the Starfleet btw? It always struck me as being just an off-handed remark with a grain of truth- not necessarily exact.

The Enterpriser · Post by **The Enterpriser** » 2002-12-28 05:58am

Perhaps a better analogy would be the Coast Guard and the U.S. Navy? It's a remark that bugs me but as you said, it could be offhand, after all, Dodonna doesn't have time to calculate exact firepower, nor does he need to. Alliance intelligence was pretty bad in those days.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-28 06:02am

Most often the half-the-starfleet quote is used to counter idiot trekkies who think dialog is empirical evidence- for example they'll refer to the 1.5c Han Solo quote, or the 1,000 ships to destroy a planet, etc.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-28 06:15am

The Enterpriser wrote: Also, my theory is that the Starfleet (Imperial) is like the U.S. Army etc. , the Galactic defense force, if this is the case then the 1/2 number could be justified since most of the star destroyers and other smaller vessels would be assigned to sector patrol, they would fall under their jurisdiction then. If so, then they'd resemble the National Guard, which operates under the civilian administration. (of course the Star Destroyers and all ships would still maintain direct command from Imperial Center when necessary).

What do you think?

Your theory is flawed, as we see in the NT the Empires army and navy will be under direct rule of the Emperor and his admirals, the home guard system was done under the OR and failed miserably.

The Enterpriser · Post by **The Enterpriser** » 2002-12-28 07:37am

I'm not sure I follow, you see I don't have access to more than 6 books from the expanded universe. Care to elaborate?

Thanks

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-28 08:13am

The Enterpriser wrote:I'm not sure I follow, you see I don't have access to more than 6 books from the expanded universe. Care to elaborate?

Thanks

No centralized military existed in the Old Republic- as you can see in AOTC a centralized military was only created in the final years. Instead, it seems that the worlds who could afford it had their own defense fleets.

Garm Bel Ibis commanded one IIRC.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-28 01:57pm

Well the way they make up the Imperial structure also indicates that they fulfill both the roles of basic sector and galaxy wide defense, with the old OR sector fleets simply being asorbed into the Empire.

Most Eu mentions no thought of any such Homeguard fleets during Palps reign and only came into light after the NR set up shop and the Empire splintered.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-12-28 03:17pm

This entire post is based upon a single comment made by an individual. Couldn't it be possible he was simply wrong? Or are Imperial officers considered infallible?

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-28 10:00pm

Robert Walper wrote:This entire post is based upon a single comment made by an individual. Couldn't it be possible he was simply wrong? Or are Imperial officers considered infallible?

As I said, it's usually brought up to counter the idiot trekkie tactic of taking dialog to be infallible.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-12-30 06:33pm

Half the Starfleet works. Using large fleet numbers, you end up with quite powerful (but not uber) average ships.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2002-12-31 02:43am

Vympel wrote:I don't think there's any evidence for such an organizational structure.

Actually, there is, namely in the old WEG books. I once calculated the combined Imperial Navy (Centralized fleet), and Imperial Starfleet (Oversectors, Sectors, and Planetary Defence forces), to have several billion vessels in it, and, I might add, concluded that based on some references to the number of planets and polities in the Galactic Empire, this is actually a very light coverage of ships.

I think I ought to re-do those calculations. Though now that I think about it, I believe A.O. Schneider may have updated them. I'll have to ask him.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-31 08:02am

Well, if we take a low-end here, say the entire imp fleet is made up of ISD2's and an HTL is worth 5Teratons and instead of using half the fleet, we use the entire fleet instead, then the fleet would have to consist of 76,923,076,923,076 ISD2's

Thats 77 trillion ISD2's

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2002-12-31 08:43am

I still believe the Empire military system is more feudal than a centralised military.

The fact is,we know there are still sector fleets out there,and they comprise the majority of the Empire forces.Their CO would be the local Moff they report to.

Tarkin and others,oversectors,appeared to centralise command decisions and military forces.

No doubt that some centralised military force exists,presumably the naval squadrons under the command of Admirals and Grand Admirals,and it would certainly be interesting to find out how diversified this fleet is.If we consider Death Squadron to be a typical naval squadron,and the 250,000 Star Destroyers to refer to this centralised fleet,we can argue for over 50,000 admirals running around under the direct command of the Emperor or his trusted sycophants.Be it Grand Admirals,Grand Moff,Sith Lords,Lords of some arse house and Grand Kiss my ass so hard it smacks.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-31 01:34pm

Sector Fleets do NOT report to the Moff of that sector. As we see in the HOT Dulogy the Moff of Bastion was shitting himself over removong 3 Imp Star Deuses from active duty. hardy they reaction of a man who owns that sector fleet.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2002-12-31 08:52pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Sector Fleets do NOT report to the Moff of that sector. As we see in the HOT Dulogy the Moff of Bastion was shitting himself over removong 3 Imp Star Deuses from active duty. hardy they reaction of a man who owns that sector fleet.

An incident that occurs after the Empire has collasped,the warlords period is over and centralised military rule under Paelleon has been insituted.

Yeah,that's a fine example of life under the rule of the Emperor.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-02 02:53pm

Under the Emperor there were more Admirals and the Sector Fleet would have reported to the local Admiral. Moffs are civilians at the end of the day and in no place to make military decisions.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-05 03:39pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Sector Fleets do NOT report to the Moff of that sector. As we see in the HOT Dulogy the Moff of Bastion was shitting himself over removong 3 Imp Star Deuses from active duty. hardy they reaction of a man who owns that sector fleet.

The Imperial Remnant only relations to the Galactic Empire are ideological and superficial. The Galactic Empire ceased to exist with the death of Imperial Interim Council Chairman Xandel Carivus at the hands of Imperial Royal Guardsman Kir Kanos.

The Imperial Remnant is merely and ideological and conceptual child of the original Empire composed of a fusion of warlord kingdoms and ruled by a military dictatorship with out a formal crown or government.

The two are not interchangable and the comparison is an extremely poor one.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-05 03:51pm

Now I'd call the Imperial Remnant more than that, they've done pretty well, and they do have a real goverment thats been solidifed(and begun to renew it's millitary) under a council of Moff's of which the ruler is Grand Admiral Pellaeon.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-05 03:51pm

But please, elaborate on the incident where the Galactic Empire finally died.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-01-08 06:23am

Darth Pounder wrote:Under the Emperor there were more Admirals and the Sector Fleet would have reported to the local Admiral. Moffs are civilians at the end of the day and in no place to make military decisions.

This is the same Empire that puts the Death Star under a Grand Moff.

I'm not saying that the Moff has operational control over the Sector Fleet,I'm saying he's in control of the sector fleet.Like how the President is in control of the US army and navy.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-08 03:14pm

Half the Starfleet works. Using large fleet numbers, you end up with quite powerful (but not uber) average ships.

Correct. Remember, only a fraction of the total ship numbers were Star Destroyers. There'd be a much larger amount of corvettes, frigates, gunboats, and the like.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-08 04:34pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:But please, elaborate on the incident where the Galactic Empire finally died.

The death of Imperial Interim Council Chairman and briefly "Emperor" Xandel Carivus at the hands of the former Imperial Royal Guardsman Kir Kanos (Crimson Empire II).

Roughly 2-5 months after Palpatine's final death and New Republic counteroffensive Coreward as much of the Fleet deserted or went rogue or warlord or fought and was destroyed (keep in mind the Republic retained major shipyards even during their lowest point and have brought the NRS Lusankya operational).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-08 04:38pm

Sorry for the double post.

No group, entity, or individuals seem to take control of the Imperial central government at this point. The Galactic Empire becomes defunct as an entity. After Carivus' death and the loss of the undefended Imperial headquarters to a private fleet under business leader Baron D'asta, the Galactic Empire as a single entity appears to totally collapse; either splitting into fleet-less "fortress worlds" in the Mid and Outer Rims or carving out warlord kingdoms in Palpatine's former domain in the Deep Core w/ what was left of the Imperial Starfleet.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-08 05:47pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:No group, entity, or individuals seem to take control of the Imperial central government at this point. The Galactic Empire becomes defunct as an entity. After Carivus' death and the loss of the undefended Imperial headquarters to a private fleet under business leader Baron D'asta, the Galactic Empire as a single entity appears to totally collapse; either splitting into fleet-less "fortress worlds" in the Mid and Outer Rims or carving out warlord kingdoms in Palpatine's former domain in the Deep Core w/ what was left of the Imperial Starfleet.

Well what of the Imperial Remnant as of NJO? Stable, rebuilding, has a council of moffs which in turn are ruled by Grand Admiral Pellaeon.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Imperial Starfleet the entire fleet?

Imperial Starfleet the entire fleet?

Re: Imperial Starfleet the entire fleet?