Death Squad, Ozzel and incompetence (split from ISD armament

[Connor MacLeod]

Subjective is subjective. The opinions of other characters are hardly empirical evidence.

You haven't proven its subjective. And you've repeatedly ignored Ozzel's performance in relation to his capabilities.

He's gonna give the order to send scoutships in the two seconds before Piett got Vader in?

To be fair though, sending scout ships maybe wasnt their best tactic. But that was only an example I used that Ozzel DID NOTHING regarding the lead - he dismissed it completely. Even bringing it to Vader's attention would have demonstrated greater intelligence than what he did. ESPECIALLY since it was their only lead.

When you're conducting an investigation of any time, do you turn down ANY lead you have, no matter how inconsequential? Especially if its been the best lead they've had? And the source of the transmission was subsequently destroyed?

He felt surprise was wiser. Was it so unreasonable?

How exactly is it surprise when you drop out of hyperspace within range of their sensors? The emergence from hyperspace alone of over a score of large warships, one of them many miles long, would ALONE have given them away. And if you remember, Rieekan didnt order the shields raised UNTIL the Imperials arrived. OBviously, if the "bombard from outside their detection range" tactic had been employed, as Vader wanted.

The real sad part about this is, even if we admit that surprise WAS a valid tactic, the fact that they dropped out of lightspeed far enough away to give the rebels time to RAISE their shields ALSO proves his incompetence (for not getting closer.)

Cite them.

Galaxy Guide 3: page 42 This isn't the ENTIRe passage relating to Ozzel, but the majority of it, especially those involving the key points of his competence:

"Those who did possess official rank often felt resentment toward the Dark Lord. Quite often they felt his evil wrath as well. One such foolish Imperial Officer was the late Admiral Ozzel."

"Many speculated that certain older ties between Military command and Ozzel's bloodline were responsible for his appointment as commander of the fleet that was to hunt down and destroy the elusive Rebellion. Another theory seems more credible, however. This fleet was the personal instrument of Darth Vader, but it had to be given a military commander besides the Dark Lord to appease the high-ranking members of the general staff."

"But despite the tremendous resources at his disposal, Ozzel preferred a more personal approach to the problem. He followed up any substantial leads personally. This often meant diverting the fleet on less than productive forays."

"Lord Vader did not put up with these indulgences for long, however. He began to restrict Ozzel's involvement so that he was a mere figurehead to relay orders to the rank-and-file. Ozzel lacked the common sense to konw when to keep his opinions to himself, arguing with Vader over the decision to investigate the Hoth system."

Star Wars encylcopedia: page 223:

"Admiral Ozzel was contemptuous of the Rebel Alliance and didnt see it as a credible threat. His contempt led to sloppiness: he brought the task force out of hyperspace too close to Hoth's sensor range, thus alerting the Rebels."

Behind the Magic:

"Admiral Ozzel, Piett's direct supervisor, was not as wise. In fact, Ozzel Continually displeased Lord Vader. First, the inept commander failed to recognize the Rebel presence on Hoth. Next, he botched the initial invasion of the ice planet and inadvertently allowed the REbels time to raise their planetary defense shield."

SW.com:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... index.html

"Ozzel was a by-the-manual type officer, with little imagination. He initially disregarded Captain Piett's report of life-signs in the Hoth system. When Vader decided to follow Piett's leads, Ozzel brought the Imperial fleet out of hyperspace too close to the system."

And:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... el/eu.html

"Given his ineptness, many wonder how Ozzel had achieved his rank. Some speculate old ties between his influential family and the military cemented his advancement in the Navy. The Ozzels are a long line of land-owners on the Imperial Academy world of Carida. Ages ago, Mann Ozzel organized the trading of many of the world's mineral rights, gaining the Ozzels considerable wealth."

Rather conclusive I'd say. Not only was Ozzel inept, his "rise to power" was due to family/political connections (not an unheard of happening in a military, I imagine) but he REPEATEDLY pissed off Vader with not only his behaviour, but his actions and decisions. This was NOT a "spur of the moment" thing - this was a progressive series of events that culminated with his execution. Were Vader prone to the "temperamental pycho"mentality youa ttribute to him, I don't think Ozzel would have lasted that long.

These are not "subjective interpretations" - these are demonstrable facts.

For that matter, when did we ever have "concrete specifications" on the warships? They're little more than aggregate details pieced from various sources, and in some respects are still subject to contention. They're far less objective than Ozzel's performance!

The firepower of a warship and actual models are less subjective than what a murderous Sith Lord thinks?

No, the weapons counts as we know them are (since we don't always have direct access to the models or clear-cut images of them, save for some of the large guns and the SWICS) We have observable proof of Ozzel's incompetence in canon, as well as substnatiating proof from the EU. I remind you that *you* are the one who continually operates on the assumption that Vader was murderous and that his judgement of Ozzel was entirely subjective.

[Vympel]

He's gonna give the order to send scoutships in the two seconds before Piett got Vader in?

To be fair though, sending scout ships maybe wasnt their best tactic. But that was only an example I used that Ozzel DID NOTHING regarding the lead - he dismissed it completely. Even bringing it to Vader's attention would have demonstrated greater intelligence than what he did. ESPECIALLY since it was their only lead.

When you're conducting an investigation of any time, do you turn down ANY lead you have, no matter how inconsequential? Especially if its been the best lead they've had? And the source of the transmission was subsequently destroyed?

Ozzel wasn't the best officer, but he wasn't a rank incompetent I don't think. He did have a reason: "if we followed up every lead..." (Piett interrupted him- strange break of protocol there on a totally different tangent)

How exactly is it surprise when you drop out of hyperspace within range of their sensors? The emergence from hyperspace alone of over a score of large warships, one of them many miles long, would ALONE have given them away. And if you remember, Rieekan didnt order the shields raised UNTIL the Imperials arrived. OBviously, if the "bombard from outside their detection range" tactic had been employed, as Vader wanted.

The real sad part about this is, even if we admit that surprise WAS a valid tactic, the fact that they dropped out of lightspeed far enough away to give the rebels time to RAISE their shields ALSO proves his incompetence (for not getting closer.)

Was a bombardment outside detection range possible? You've read the novelization so you know more. He probably felt it was surprise in that the risk was if they were detected further out the Rebels would have more time to prepare their defenses and escape.

Galaxy Guide 3: page 42 This isn't the ENTIRe passage relating to Ozzel, but the majority of it, especially those involving the key points of his competence:

"Those who did possess official rank often felt resentment toward the Dark Lord. Quite often they felt his evil wrath as well. One such foolish Imperial Officer was the late Admiral Ozzel."

Foolish for resenting Vader, yes. But as a military man?

"Many speculated that certain older ties between Military command and Ozzel's bloodline were responsible for his appointment as commander of the fleet that was to hunt down and destroy the elusive Rebellion. Another theory seems more credible, however. This fleet was the personal instrument of Darth Vader, but it had to be given a military commander besides the Dark Lord to appease the high-ranking members of the general staff."

Fair enough. This is evidence that he's a figurehead.

"But despite the tremendous resources at his disposal, Ozzel preferred a more personal approach to the problem. He followed up any substantial leads personally. This often meant diverting the fleet on less than productive forays."

Hmmm this seems to contradict the impression we get of him in the film, where he seems reluctant to do so.

"Lord Vader did not put up with these indulgences for long, however. He began to restrict Ozzel's involvement so that he was a mere figurehead to relay orders to the rank-and-file. Ozzel lacked the common sense to konw when to keep his opinions to himself, arguing with Vader over the decision to investigate the Hoth system."

Old-fashioned man. Judging from his age, he was in the Old Republic Starfleet for quite a while before Vader. Still, it doesn't really relate to military decisions. An Admiral should be in command of his fleet, not some religious nut

Star Wars encylcopedia: page 223:

"Admiral Ozzel was contemptuous of the Rebel Alliance and didnt see it as a credible threat. His contempt led to sloppiness: he brought the task force out of hyperspace too close to Hoth's sensor range, thus alerting the Rebels."

Behind the Magic:

"Admiral Ozzel, Piett's direct supervisor, was not as wise. In fact, Ozzel Continually displeased Lord Vader. First, the inept commander failed to recognize the Rebel presence on Hoth. Next, he botched the initial invasion of the ice planet and inadvertently allowed the REbels time to raise their planetary defense shield."

SW.com:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... index.html

"Ozzel was a by-the-manual type officer, with little imagination. He initially disregarded Captain Piett's report of life-signs in the Hoth system. When Vader decided to follow Piett's leads, Ozzel brought the Imperial fleet out of hyperspace too close to the system."

And:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... el/eu.html

"Given his ineptness, many wonder how Ozzel had achieved his rank. Some speculate old ties between his influential family and the military cemented his advancement in the Navy. The Ozzels are a long line of land-owners on the Imperial Academy world of Carida. Ages ago, Mann Ozzel organized the trading of many of the world's mineral rights, gaining the Ozzels considerable wealth."

Rather conclusive I'd say. Not only was Ozzel inept, his "rise to power" was due to family/political connections (not an unheard of happening in a military, I imagine) but he REPEATEDLY pissed off Vader with not only his behaviour, but his actions and decisions. This was NOT a "spur of the moment" thing - this was a progressive series of events that culminated with his execution. Were Vader prone to the "temperamental pycho"mentality youa ttribute to him, I don't think Ozzel would have lasted that long.

Most of this is really just repackaging of what happened in the movie. The impression I get of Ozzel is a man who resented Vader and actually thought he was in command- he never seems to accept Vader's authority unless absolutely necessary.

No, the weapons counts as we know them are (since we don't always have direct access to the models or clear-cut images of them, save for some of the large guns and the SWICS) We have observable proof of Ozzel's incompetence in canon, as well as substnatiating proof from the EU. I remind you that *you* are the one who continually operates on the assumption that Vader was murderous and that his judgement of Ozzel was entirely subjective.

Vader IS tempermental- the off-the-cuff murder of Captain Needa is proof enough of that.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ozzel wasn't the best officer, but he wasn't a rank incompetent I don't think. He did have a reason: "if we followed up every lead..." (Piett interrupted him- strange break of protocol there on a totally different tangent)

He might not have been the worst officer (There are some particularily bad EU officers who are worse) but he's clearly not a particularily bright man, either. At best, he's rigid and unimaginative and willing to let his preconceptions dictate his choices (contemtp - sloppiness) as well as his feelings. At worst, he's an outright incompetent who only managed to rise so high due to the Death Star catastrophe and political/family connections.

Was a bombardment outside detection range possible? You've read the novelization so you know more. He probably felt it was surprise in that the risk was if they were detected further out the Rebels would have more time to prepare their defenses and escape.

Of course it is. ISD sensors are easily light minute/light hour range, even by pure passive. We know just how extraordinarily long-ranged they are (Remember Rebel Dream, if nothing else?) According to GG3, the preferrable option would have been to emerge from hyperspace on the other side of the asteroid belt in the Hoth system. EGW&T also indicates their passive EM/optical sensor capability as easily in the light minute range, to say nothing of FTL detection.

Vader made it clear in the novel that "a clean bombardment through the shield was impossible" due to Ozzel's tactics - and the shield hadn't been raised UNTIL the Imperials had been detected. This implies (due to known timeframes for planetary shield activation - ref EGW&T) they may have been anywhere from several minutes to half an hour out from the planet, and that whatever weapons fire they might have leveled at it in that time would not have reached them before the shield was raised (I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out just how far away this might very well be)

Foolish for resenting Vader, yes. But as a military man?

The other sources (particularily the SW.com one) as well as observed behaviour seem to imply so. Granted, that passage alone doesn't, but thats why I didn't rely on that single passage to prove my point

Fair enough. This is evidence that he's a figurehead.

He wasn't actively made a figurehead until he'd ticked off Vader though, as the later quotes confirm (Vader didnt restrict him immediately - so at least for some time before he did have power.)

Hmmm this seems to contradict the impression we get of him in the film, where he seems reluctant to do so.

You'll note it referred to "Substantial leads" - this of course would be his decision (at least unless Vader overrode him - presumably he didnt or wasnt able to until too late in these instances.) He never regarded the Hoth lead as substantial, but can be used to show that perhaps his criteria were not the best (if leads he chose to pursue were all duds, and one he refused turned otu valid..)

I might add my impression of him was never that he was very competent.

Old-fashioned man. Judging from his age, he was in the Old Republic Starfleet for quite a while before Vader. Still, it doesn't really relate to military decisions. An Admiral should be in command of his fleet, not some religious nut

Vader at this point and time has never shown himself to be particularily inept when it comes to tactics or decisions either. And regardless of what SHOULD be, Vader was indeed in command, and he wasn't bad at it either - Force or no Force.

Most of this is really just repackaging of what happened in the movie. The impression I get of Ozzel is a man who resented Vader and actually thought he was in command- he never seems to accept Vader's authority unless absolutely necessary.

I can understand you may feel differently based on the movie, but do your impressions contradict the evidence as I've posted? Not just the EU stuff, but the observed facts from the movie itself as well?

Even if we allow he had "clouded" judgement, he still made bad decisions repeatedly and on a fairly consistent basis. This still qualifies him as a bad commander, if not an inept one (although it still calls him that - in Sw.com if nothing else)

Vader IS tempermental- the off-the-cuff murder of Captain Needa is proof enough of that.

The novel seems to indicate Needa may hae screwed up more than once as well - it lists the Avenger as one of the ships involved in the three-way ISD collision - (whether or not this is disproved in the movies I'm not sure of) as well as having lost the ISD in the asteroid field (when it ducked into the cave/space slug) the first time, and it also implies Needa's ship was hit by ion cannon fire (actually it seems that the Avenger was meant to be the first ship hit in the novel, whereas it changed in the movie - but this could be construed as being a separate event as well.)

If so, then like Ozzel, he may have failed the Dark Lord one time too many

[Vympel]

Ozzel wasn't the best officer, but he wasn't a rank incompetent I don't think. He did have a reason: "if we followed up every lead..." (Piett interrupted him- strange break of protocol there on a totally different tangent)

He might not have been the worst officer (There are some particularily bad EU officers who are worse) but he's clearly not a particularily bright man, either. At best, he's rigid and unimaginative and willing to let his preconceptions dictate his choices (contemtp - sloppiness) as well as his feelings. At worst, he's an outright incompetent who only managed to rise so high due to the Death Star catastrophe and political/family connections.

Was a bombardment outside detection range possible? You've read the novelization so you know more. He probably felt it was surprise in that the risk was if they were detected further out the Rebels would have more time to prepare their defenses and escape.

Of course it is. ISD sensors are easily light minute/light hour range, even by pure passive. We know just how extraordinarily long-ranged they are (Remember Rebel Dream, if nothing else?) According to GG3, the preferrable option would have been to emerge from hyperspace on the other side of the asteroid belt in the Hoth system. EGW&T also indicates their passive EM/optical sensor capability as easily in the light minute range, to say nothing of FTL detection.

Vader made it clear in the novel that "a clean bombardment through the shield was impossible" due to Ozzel's tactics - and the shield hadn't been raised UNTIL the Imperials had been detected. This implies (due to known timeframes for planetary shield activation - ref EGW&T) they may have been anywhere from several minutes to half an hour out from the planet, and that whatever weapons fire they might have leveled at it in that time would not have reached them before the shield was raised (I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out just how far away this might very well be)

Foolish for resenting Vader, yes. But as a military man?

The other sources (particularily the SW.com one) as well as observed behaviour seem to imply so. Granted, that passage alone doesn't, but thats why I didn't rely on that single passage to prove my point

Fair enough. This is evidence that he's a figurehead.

He wasn't actively made a figurehead until he'd ticked off Vader though, as the later quotes confirm (Vader didnt restrict him immediately - so at least for some time before he did have power.)

Hmmm this seems to contradict the impression we get of him in the film, where he seems reluctant to do so.

You'll note it referred to "Substantial leads" - this of course would be his decision (at least unless Vader overrode him - presumably he didnt or wasnt able to until too late in these instances.) He never regarded the Hoth lead as substantial, but can be used to show that perhaps his criteria were not the best (if leads he chose to pursue were all duds, and one he refused turned otu valid..)

I might add my impression of him was never that he was very competent.

Old-fashioned man. Judging from his age, he was in the Old Republic Starfleet for quite a while before Vader. Still, it doesn't really relate to military decisions. An Admiral should be in command of his fleet, not some religious nut

Vader at this point and time has never shown himself to be particularily inept when it comes to tactics or decisions either. And regardless of what SHOULD be, Vader was indeed in command, and he wasn't bad at it either - Force or no Force.

Most of this is really just repackaging of what happened in the movie. The impression I get of Ozzel is a man who resented Vader and actually thought he was in command- he never seems to accept Vader's authority unless absolutely necessary.

I can understand you may feel differently based on the movie, but do your impressions contradict the evidence as I've posted? Not just the EU stuff, but the observed facts from the movie itself as well?

Even if we allow he had "clouded" judgement, he still made bad decisions repeatedly and on a fairly consistent basis. This still qualifies him as a bad commander, if not an inept one (although it still calls him that - in Sw.com if nothing else)

Vader IS tempermental- the off-the-cuff murder of Captain Needa is proof enough of that.

The novel seems to indicate Needa may hae screwed up more than once as well - it lists the Avenger as one of the ships involved in the three-way ISD collision - (whether or not this is disproved in the movies I'm not sure of) as well as having lost the ISD in the asteroid field (when it ducked into the cave/space slug) the first time, and it also implies Needa's ship was hit by ion cannon fire (actually it seems that the Avenger was meant to be the first ship hit in the novel, whereas it changed in the movie - but this could be construed as being a separate event as well.)

If so, then like Ozzel, he may have failed the Dark Lord one time too many

Coz of the novelization/EU information I concede on Ozzel.

I can swallow Ozzel being somewhat deserving of his fate (that's if any officer deserves such harsh discipline for failure), but not Needa- I just admire what he did too much. He could have easily offered up his com/scan to be 'sacrificed' so to speak. The novelization also seems ambiguous as to previous failures- i.e. we don't know if it was the Avenger chasing the Falcon through the field.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think one of the X-Wing books (Wedge's Gamble) implies Needa might have had some Rebel sympathies and been even reluctant or half-hearted to pursue Solo.

[Raptor 597]

I think one of the X-Wing books (Wedge's Gamble) implies Needa might have had some Rebel sympathies and been even reluctant or half-hearted to pursue Solo.

So basically anyone if the Empire doesn't really fuck up and got bad luck is a Rebel Sympatheiser. Though it might be an underlying theme of Rebel propganda too look like the Empire's finest was disloyal?

[Vympel]

I think one of the X-Wing books (Wedge's Gamble) implies Needa might have had some Rebel sympathies and been even reluctant or half-hearted to pursue Solo.

So basically anyone if the Empire doesn't really fuck up and got bad luck is a Rebel Sympatheiser. Though it might be an underlying theme of Rebel propganda too look like the Empire's finest was disloyal?

This is the kind of thing that makes me despise the EU.

[Darth Yoshi]

I think one of the X-Wing books (Wedge's Gamble) implies Needa might have had some Rebel sympathies and been even reluctant or half-hearted to pursue Solo.

Actually, one of Lt. Needa's subordinates came up with that story on the spot. Needa actually wanted to go fight the NR, even though he was on a satellite and a single hit would kill them all.

[Publius]

Connor is, as usual, correct in his evaluations. Fleet Admiral Kendal Ozzel did indeed blunder -- not for the first time -- and had the considerable misfortune of irritating Lord Vader one time too many.

Rear Admiral Michael Unther, Ret., gave a guest lecture to the Fleet Tactics 241 class at the Duluur Sector Naval Academy (the full text of which may be found here, with many thanks to MKSheppard), in which he analysed the performance of the Death Squadron during the Battle of Hoth. His analysis reinforces perceptions that Admiral Ozzel's operational plan was sadly deficient.

Lord Vader, whilst temperamental and impatient, is not given to murderous rages. If this were so, then surely Fleet Admiral Firmus Piett would have been summarily executed for his failure to capture the Millennium Falcon during its flight from Bespin. However, Admiral Piett remained Commander, Death Squadron, until his death in battle at Endor.

Indeed, the summary execution of Captain Lorth Needa seems sudden, but the facts are clear: Lord Vader makes allowances for occasional failure even in the most important matters. There must be some reason that Lord Vader was willing to summarily execute Captain Needa, either be it incompetence or even visceral dislike.

Interestingly enough, the Decipher customisable card game provides two interesting pieces of information:

Admiral Ozzel is described as "[l]eader of the Emperor's Death Squadron assigned to hunt down and crush the Rebellion. As clumsy as he is stupid. Has just failed Darth Vader for the next-to-last time" (according to Hoth Expansion: "Admiral Ozzel").

Captain Needa is described as "[a]ble leader and captain of the Avenger. Was given his command by Admiral Ozzel. Treated with suspicion by Darth Vader and the Emperor, who distrust Ozzel's close advisors" (according to Dagobah Expansion: "Captain Needa").

It would appear, then, that Lord Vader had already distrusted and disliked Captain Needa, and his failure was fairly the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. It was not a random or spontaneous act, but, like Admiral Ozzel's execution, the denouement of an inevitably one-sided conflict of personalities.

Publius

[Boba Fett]

I always thought that this part of the movie was somehow without sense.

Imagine the situation!

You're Ozzel and you have the location of the Hoth base provided by a probe droid.
You manage to bring out your fleet from hyperspace outside the rebels sensor range.
The rebels not seeing your fleet and you can't see the rebels.
(I doubt that the main rebel base have weaker sensors that the ones on an ISD)

So you can use the coordinates provided by the probe droid and make a blindfire bombardment.

The only thing that not fits is we never seen any ships in the SW universe firing out of sensor range.

So the following questions need to be answered:

1. What's the sensor range of an ISDI or ISDII?

2. What's the sensor range of Hoth Base?

3. Are the ISDs capable of firing TURBOLASERS (not missiles) out of sensor range?