Chiss vs. Yevetha

[NRS Guardian]

TC PIlot, you're an idiot. First off your posts are about as long winded as IP's. Second, why respond to things that you agree with? Just say, "I agree," and be done with that topic. Third, don't you realize the inherent hypocrisy in saying we should dismiss the 11,000 number out of hand, while at the same time saying we must accept the similarly minimalist description of the Mon Remonda surviving the Iron Fist? Why are you still arguing? Especially if you don't know anything about the capabilities of Executors. As to anything you wrote in your last post.

What part of "We might be able to take a few of them with us," do you not understand? Yes, the Rebels closed to point-blank range to escape the DS, but running away would have accomplished the same thing. Getting in close both allowed the Rebels to take the DS out of the battle and gave the Rebels their best shot at doing damage to the Imps.

As to no one knowing the Emperor was alive, that is just flat out wrong and contradicted by Isard's Revenge.

Where in BFC is it implied that the Black Fleet was superior in Yevethan hands? It's implied that the Yevetha may have made some technical improvements to some of the ships, though no one said when these improvements were done, and the Intimidator's back up bridge shield generator is implied to be standard to all post-Endor Executors. Still even if the Yevetha were able to maintain the entire Black Fleet at 110% efficiency the need for the Yevetha to still use the captured Imperial personnel and the fact that the Republic is stated to be much more experienced and efficient. Plus, the fact that the Yevetha had to use human shields to even the odds against the Republic at Doornik-319 show that the Black Fleet in Yevethan hands was much less experienced and competent compared to the Empire or the NR.

[TC Pilot]

TC PIlot, you're an idiot.

Fortunately I don't give a shit what a retarded asshat like you thinks.

First off your posts are about as long winded as IP's.

Did you even read his posts?

Second, why respond to things that you agree with? Just say, "I agree," and be done with that topic.

I'll ask again, did you even read his posts? Did you miss the part where he responded to "None of which I really care to argue against (beyond the Rebels outnumbering the Imperials, I agree completely)" with a recitation of the entire fucking battle?

Third, don't you realize the inherent hypocrisy in saying we should dismiss the 11,000 number out of hand, while at the same time saying we must accept the similarly minimalist description of the Mon Remonda surviving the Iron Fist?

Maybe you fail to differentiate between plot points where main character's lives are at stake and numbers. Further, you again demonstrate you're either a brown-nosing, me-tooing troll, or just can't read. Where did I "dismiss the number out of hand"? The part where I questioned what kind of worlds they were? Oh, that's right, I didn't, so fuck off.

I'm going to quote myself, since you're as similar to Primus here to quote verbatim "Actually, I'm starting to wonder where the fuck you keep getting the idea that I somehow like it where Rouge Squadron is blowing up Star Destoyers or beats Lusankya single-handedly. Jee, notice I didn't even mention that when I was arguing about the poor SSD performances? No, of course not. You're too busy beating off to your knee-jerk, anti-minimalist hard-on. Idiot."

Why are you still arguing? Especially if you don't know anything about the capabilities of Executors.

You must be completely blind or brain-dead since I already conceded that 5 posts go.

What part of "We might be able to take a few of them with us," do you not understand? Yes, the Rebels closed to point-blank range to escape the DS, but running away would have accomplished the same thing.

Good job completely missing the point. Primus claimed the Rebels closed the distance specifically to bleed the Imperials. I called him on that and he suddenly changed his argument.

Of course, if you weren't an illiterate retard, you'd know that

Getting in close both allowed the Rebels to take the DS out of the battle and gave the Rebels their best shot at doing damage to the Imps.

Wow, I'm getting that deja vu feeling. It's almost like I already said that in the same fucking post you're responding to.

Back to 1st grade, kiddies! Time to learn how to read!

As to no one knowing the Emperor was alive, that is just flat out wrong and contradicted by Isard's Revenge.

Oh for the love cupcakes, are you seriously so god damn stupid that you're taking it to literally mean I'm claiming every person in the galaxy thought Palpatine was dead? I already know people like Pestage and Isard were working on Palpatine's behalf after Endor. Know why? Because I said it in my posts, shit-for-brains!

Good Lord, where the fuck did you learn to read?

Where in BFC is it implied that the Black Fleet was superior in Yevethan hands?

Again, did you even read my post? It was Murazor that made the claim to begin with.

Get lost, you Primus-cockgobbling troll. Let people who can read argue.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No, you brain-dead fucktard. Maybe if you pulled your shit-covered head out of your own ass your puerile little mind might comprehend most people don't fucking go around measuring volumes and correlate it to the energy required to destroy a whole planet for shits and giggles. Stop being such a conceited little dipshit crowing over "LOLZ anyone with education knows this!" Fucking douche.

Most people do not have strong opinions about the military efficiency of deploying the Executor. Brilliant argument, skidmark.

The best option was to run away, you know, what Ackbar ordered the fleet to do immediately. The point-blank attack was not "an emergency tactic to bleed as much of the Imp force as possible" like you claimed, it was to escape from being blown to hell by the Death Star.

Nice dodge, good try idiot. Either stop being a dishonest prick or get your fucking argument straight.

Nitpick. It was the best option if they chose to try and stay and buy time for the surface team. No shit it would be better if they just gave up. But even that's not certain, as interdictor cruisers were deployed in-system.

No, I didn't. You'd know that if you can read: "They certainly weren't expecting to find an Imperial fleet of any considerable size guarding the Death Star." Remember, they expected "the Death Star is relatively unprotected." They fully expected to brush aside whatever forces were present, surround the Death Star in a "defensive perimeter," and celebrate their victory. Well golly gee wizz Batman, if Han and co. weren't surprised by three ships, that must not constitute "an Imperial fleet of any considerable size" compared to the Rebels! Please, don't put words into my mouth.

Good one there.

Except Executor and two escorts composes a majority of the firepower of the Imp fleet even if there are another 36 ISDs in a second pincer.

In the novelisation they nuke a stupid Neb-B frigate and in the film we can see there are at least 2 Home One types remaining by the fall of the Executor.

So? My point still stands.

Obviously not, because they chose to waste time shooting insignificant combatants while major ones were still flying and fighting.

Riiiight, so some of the best soldiers the Empire can muster aren't as disciplined as Rebels because of one freak encounter...

No, they're not so disciplined if they obviously had the upper hand, should have won, but STILL turned tail, as per your own claim they would have won had Pelleaon not ordered an illegal retreat. Do you confuse your own claims?

This is absolutely hilarious. I really can't believe I'm being accused of having "more shit saying the same" by a long-winded blowhard wanking off to how much he can write on a subject I've said things like "None of which I really care to argue against (beyond the Rebels outnumbering the Imperials, I agree completely)." So what do you do? Spew out more long-winded diatribes that have nothing to do with the subject. Not only that, but when I respond to each with maybe one or two sentences either agreeing completely or making a "minor nitpick," you go into even more paragraph long rants like you've been waiting to recite this crap.

This isn't long-winded? If you agree, don't reply with a "hey, but you should see this

" It implies a refutation. Just say you agree, or do you what I do, and simply delete quotes from your post that are not in dispute or too stupid to reply to.

How about this? Shut the fuck up for a change.

Ah, so you're just switching from ship production to ship deployment.

Yes, because I'm sure the balance of power was defined by crewless ships laid up. That would make perfect sense. Are you fucking stupid?

Evidence the Dark Empire even used cloning to man their ships, most of which had actually just been stolen clandestinely from the original Imperial order of battle?

What are you talking about? Your entire argument spins around that DESB figures are stupid because TTSB quotes are better because you say so. There's plenty of reason to accept that NR outnumbered Thrawn's Empire, he evened that out (the early plot of the Thrawn Trilogy centers around him building up his manpower and armament), and then by after DE the NR held the winning hand. Well obviously the NR wasn't going to let the Empire just build-up while they did nothing, so they probably began a build-up but the Empire lost pace after the major strategic losses following Thrawn's death and losses during the Imperial Civil War so that by post-DE, the NR is actually slightly ahead.

All this is beside the point that the TTSB quotes don't magically make the DESB invalid, and you have no evidence that a majority of Palpatine's forces were secretly stolen other than your say-so.

Keep in mind Palpatine deployed a large number of war droids as well, particularly at Mon Calamari and Balmorra.

And he must secretly have built them, they aren't part of the normal Imp OOB because you say so, right?

Which is irrelevant, unless you for some reason think ship production vastly outpaced training, having over a hundred manpower-intensive warship magically appear in your new fleet isn't going to matter to overall military production output. Thrawn needed more ships that he had, which stands to reason to needed more crew than he had. Mythical lost fleets, stolen Republic warships, and hijacked privately-owned warships isn't going to affect straight-up shipyard production at all.

Yeah, but who cares about standard shipyard production. We're not talking about hulls built; we're talking about the balance of power - and those factors do contribute to that.

The EC is an in-universe New Republic historical document, prone to both bias and the ignorance of the author. The DE sourcebook states "The Empire has regained the Core Worlds, and still holds the Deep Galactic Core, as well as many high industry regions beyond the Core Worlds. It seemed that the Imperial Coalition was dispersed – while it held Coruscant, the former capital wasn't used as the prime base of operations." Note that the "Imperial Coalition" was distinct from Palpatine's now "Empire." And it was this coalition of councilmen and fleet commanders that stormed the Core and retook the galactic capital. Palpatine didn't show up until they had spent several months killing each other and devastating much of the planet (apparently losing enough ships to keep Coruscant dangerously choked by their hulks over a year later).

How can the Imperial Coalition and the Empire be distinct if the former holds Coruscant and the latter controls the Deep Core and Core Worlds? You can't just wave your hand with "bias" and say the EGTC is ignorant of an entire phase of the war. There's no reason to reject its claim that Thrawn's gains were lost before the Imperial coalition's resurgent campaign. Other than your say-so, as usual.

Thrawn was desperately short of ships, and nothing suggests he had hordes of those Super Star Destroyers that just happen to never be seen in his campaign, particularly at Bilbringi, which was supposed to be his knock-out blow against the Republic. Then, suddenly, we see all these wacky new ships no one's seen before orbitting Byss.

Supposition and say-so, in other words. We know there were Imperial factions and warlords not participating in the Thrawnian campaign. The Pentastar Alignment, in particular, had a star dreadnought.

Keep in mind, when the remnants of Black Sword Command were slaved together after being freed from the Yevetha, they automatically jumped to hyperspace toward Byss.

Still looking for proof of your exact assertion that a majority of Palpatine's war resources was "stolen" (a spurious idea considering he was the lawful despot of the Empire).

"Despite cunning and remarkable strategies, Thrawn and C'baoth faced final defeat at the hands of the Republic. The new Imperial offensive was smashed. Or should have been." (DESB)

"The Imperial fleet regrouped near the Unknown Regions while Pellaeon assessed the situation. Thrawn had captured an astonishing amount of territory, nearly doubling the size of the Empire, but it had been held together by his authority alone. Without a similarly charismatic leader the union would splinter yet again. Pellaeon, while respected, was not such a leader. The Empire reverted again into warlordism, and the New Republic began recapturing its lost territory, planet by planet." EC, p. 89

And then, in the wake of Thrawn's death, "surviving members of the Emperor's ruling circle, in concert with six former starfleet commanders, stages a stunning assault on Coruscant."

This is happening simultaneously with the Republic's reconquest of lost territory, which couldn't have been nearly as rapid as Thrawn's campaign.

Why? The Republic's return after Palpatine's final death was much faster than his conquest.

How can a campaign that ended when the leaders couldn't decide who to acclaim the new Emperor and degenerated into killing each other in their bids for the Throne been initiated by the Emperor? Sure, he's acting secretly behind the scenes. "None of those struggling to seize power ever realized they were being observed from the audience chambers on Byss. All things were weighed and considered by the Emperor. Spies moved everywhere with confidence, probing loyalty, checking for those most likely to prove worthy." Sure, he orchestrated the deaths of "the incompetent and recalcitrant" and pulled figures for stability like Pestage back to Byss, and most everyone else were just pawns in his game, but it was all without anyone having the faintest idea that Palpatine had somehow miraculously survived Endor.

At this point, we're basically quibbling over semantics.

If he's secretly manipulating everything behind the scenes, he's responsible for the recapture of the Core. If it didn't just happen magically at his benefit, than how am I wrong?

[TC Pilot]

Most people do not have strong opinions about the military efficiency of deploying the Executor. Brilliant argument, skidmark.

I'm sorry, but how is "folding immediately upon be presented contradictory evidence" a "strong opinion"? What? Oh, that's right, it isn't. Go fuck yourself.

Nitpick.

Then get your fucking argument straight and know what the fuck you're saying in your posts before being a smart-aleck bitch.

Except Executor and two escorts composes a majority of the firepower of the Imp fleet even if there are another 36 ISDs in a second pincer.

Along with the thousands of other ships in the Sector Group and the Death Star's superlaser...

Obviously not, because they chose to waste time shooting insignificant combatants while major ones were still flying and fighting.

"ZOMG! Teh Imperalz are teh stoopid1 They shot teh frigate!!1"

Two shots out of Force know's how many. Wow, big fucking deal.

No, they're not so disciplined if they obviously had the upper hand, should have won, but STILL turned tail, as per your own claim they would have won had Pelleaon not ordered an illegal retreat.

"Not so disciplined"? What the hell is that even supposed to mean? "Imperial troops are generally disciplined and experienced fighters, and the men at Endor were the finest that Palpatine could field." Canon. They fled when Pellaeon ordered the retreat. Canon.

This isn't long-winded?

ZOMG! One long paragraph. How many did you write? Twenty? Thirty? K, stfu, ty.

Yes, because I'm sure the balance of power was defined by crewless ships laid up. That would make perfect sense. Are you fucking stupid?

Nice dodge again, sophist.

Yeah, I'm sure the Empire just likes to build ships it can't crew for shits and giggles. That makes reeeeeeeal sense.

What are you talking about? Your entire argument spins around that DESB figures are stupid because TTSB quotes are better because you say so.

Are you NRS Guardian? Because you sure do have his reading comprehension skills. Either that, or you're just a disingenuous little twit, because when I said "Really? Wow, the warlords must really have kicked the shit out of each other after falling out after liberating Coruscant," you could have just ended it there, instead of going off on some badly-worded "fleet buildup."

Whatever.

How can the Imperial Coalition and the Empire be distinct if the former holds Coruscant and the latter controls the Deep Core and Core Worlds?

Verb tenses. The Coalition "was dispersed," and it happened in the Imperial Civil War, before Palpatine came forward and reunified all the factions of the Empire, more or less.

We know there were Imperial factions and warlords not participating in the Thrawnian campaign. The Pentastar Alignment, in particular, had a star dreadnought.

Well, that accounts for one of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of heavier ships. I find it ridiculous that 1/4 of the original Empire would for some reason be more pitifully armed than some crack-pot warlords.

Still looking for proof of your exact assertion that a majority of Palpatine's war resources was "stolen" (a spurious idea considering he was the lawful despot of the Empire).

Semantics. I say stolen, you can say secretly redeployed, requisitioned, etc. Parts of fleets simply vanished, like the rest of Black Sword Command the Yevetha didn't capture, in the eyes of the outside galaxy. Certainly the Republic, and possibly even Thrawn and Dangor, had no clue what was going on in the Deep Core.

Why? The Republic's return after Palpatine's final death was much faster than his conquest.

Because they didn't have to fight anyone. The Imperials retreated back into the Deep Core on their own after Byss was destroyed: "With all of his clones destroyed, Emperor Palpatine was finally and truly defeated. Without orders, the confused Imperial fleet went into retreat, abandoning Coruscant and other Core planets" (EC, p. 97)

If he's secretly manipulating everything behind the scenes, he's responsible for the recapture of the Core. If it didn't just happen magically at his benefit, than how am I wrong?

Oh, come on now. Just because he was doing some behind-the-scenes political manipulation and recalling large numbers of ships to the Deep Core doesn't mean he can take the credit for retaking Coruscant, epsecially when the Imperial Coalition (or at least the vast majority, considering they started a civil war over who would be Emperor) had no idea Palpatine had been resurrected.

[NRS Guardian]

Fortunately I don't give a shit what a retarded asshat like you thinks.

How does this not make you sound like an idiot?

I'll ask again, did you even read his posts? Did you miss the part where he responded to "None of which I really care to argue against (beyond the Rebels outnumbering the Imperials, I agree completely)" with a recitation of the entire fucking battle?

I read the entire debate, did you? I just said your post were just as long as his and contained passages with unnecessary responses. You're both guilty. How is "but he's more guilty" a valid argument?

Maybe you fail to differentiate between plot points where main character's lives are at stake and numbers. Further, you again demonstrate you're either a brown-nosing, me-tooing troll, or just can't read. Where did I "dismiss the number out of hand"? The part where I questioned what kind of worlds they were? Oh, that's right, I didn't, so fuck off.

Yes but this plot point contradicts the known capabilities of an Executor and is more difficult to rationalize compared to the 11,00 worlds. Minimalism is minimalism, I think its worse when its a plot point because it shows the author wasn't paying attention to the movies, and couldn't think of how to represent the true nature and might of Star Wars tech. I did read, maybe you forgot that your first response was to dismiss the number as wrong. Only after you got called on it did you start asking questions.

I'm going to quote myself, since you're as similar to Primus here to quote verbatim "Actually, I'm starting to wonder where the fuck you keep getting the idea that I somehow like it where Rouge Squadron is blowing up Star Destoyers or beats Lusankya single-handedly. Jee, notice I didn't even mention that when I was arguing about the poor SSD performances? No, of course not. You're too busy beating off to your knee-jerk, anti-minimalist hard-on. Idiot."

I didn't mention the Lusy or Rogue Squadron, where are you getting that, did you even read the post you quoted? I was talking about the Iron Fist and Mon Remonda, why don't you learn to fucking read, retard.

TC Pilot wrote:
Frankly, until the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, there was no need for either ship. Mon Remonda was enough to hold up against Iron Fist, and the 5th Fleet was going to attack N'zoth with the intention of facing Intimidator and the entire Black Fleet supporting the Yevethan thrustships.

Super Star Destroyers have never been practical warships..

Emphasis mine. Apparently you did mention what I was referring to. This was on the first page.

You must be completely blind or brain-dead since I already conceded that 5 posts go.

Then why are you still arguing? Just concede and fuck off.

Good job completely missing the point. Primus claimed the Rebels closed the distance specifically to bleed the Imperials. I called him on that and he suddenly changed his argument.

Of course, if you weren't an illiterate retard, you'd know that

Obviously you can't even read what you wrote much less anything anyone else writes. Again I'll ask what part of "Maybe we can take a few of them with us" do you not understand. It's obvious to anyone not retarded that the purpose for closing the range was to give the Rebels the chance at continuing the battle and causing losses to the Imps because the only other option was to cut and run.

Wow, I'm getting that deja vu feeling. It's almost like I already said that in the same fucking post you're responding to.

Back to 1st grade, kiddies! Time to learn how to read!

Now you're missing the point. Of course everyone knows the Rebels moved in close to take the DS out of the equation that's why IP didn't mention it. The main point of the Rebels closing the range is because it was the only strategy that allowed the Rebels to damage the Imps.

Oh for the love cupcakes, are you seriously so god damn stupid that you're taking it to literally mean I'm claiming every person in the galaxy thought Palpatine was dead? I already know people like Pestage and Isard were working on Palpatine's behalf after Endor. Know why? Because I said it in my posts, shit-for-brains!

Good Lord, where the fuck did you learn to read?

Then don't say fucking everyone, if you don't mean fucking everyone, that's writing 101. If you acknowledge that the rulers knew about Palpatine why are you arguing that Palpatine had to steal ships, and that the push for Coruscant wasn't under the auspices of Palpatine, especially when the DESB says that Palpatine was using the civil war to thin out the weak and disloyal and that Palpatine was gathering the warlords to himself.

Again, did you even read my post? It was Murazor that made the claim to begin with.

Get lost, you Primus-cockgobbling troll. Let people who can read argue.

I know Murazor made the claim, but you're the one who brought it up again.

You know, I'm just going to refer back to Murazor's claim that "Actually, the Black Fleet is heavily implied to be more potent under Yevethan control that it was under the Imperial's," that you ignored.

I was answering this claim, I notice you didn't quote that part. I just wanted to know where Murazor was getting that impression. Why bring it up if you don't have the same impression and could thus answer my query?
Edit: So when I agree with IP I'm a cocksucker and a brown-noser, it couldn't possibly be because you're fucking wrong could it? But when you parrot the same arguments as McEwok, IP is paranoid because he notices the similarities. You have no business debating on something you admit you know nothing about like you're right. Maybe if you couched your arguments in a bit less certainty and self-righteousness we would give you the beneift of the doubt.

[TC Pilot]

How does this not make you sound like an idiot?

Because all anyone has to do is read what you're writing and know how hilariously stupid it all is.

I read the entire debate, did you? I just said your post were just as long as his and contained passages with unnecessary responses. You're both guilty. How is "but he's more guilty" a valid argument?

It isn't, and I never argued that. I told him he was a hypocrite and should shut the fuck up for a change.

I did read, maybe you forgot that your first response was to dismiss the number as wrong. Only after you got called on it did you start asking questions.

Fortunately for you, I can actually read: "Furthermore, your strategic analysis of the New Republic circa the Black Fleet crisis is misinformed. At that time the New Republic could only boast some 11,000 member states." "And? How many of those are integral Core Worlds and how many are pissant backwaters? What's the context of the number? Is it in respect to a horrendously minimalized galaxy?"

I'll ask again where in there did I say anything that can reasonably be construed as "No! That's wrong!"? Get lost, asshat.

I'm going to quote myself, since you're as similar to Primus here to quote verbatim "Actually, I'm starting to wonder where the fuck you keep getting the idea that I somehow like it where Rouge Squadron is blowing up Star Destoyers or beats Lusankya single-handedly. Jee, notice I didn't even mention that when I was arguing about the poor SSD performances? No, of course not. You're too busy beating off to your knee-jerk, anti-minimalist hard-on. Idiot."

I didn't mention the Lusy or Rogue Squadron, where are you getting that, did you even read the post you quoted?

Wow, great job completely missing the point, shit-for-brains.

I'll ask again: where did I dismiss the number? All you can do is dodge and ignore the demand because I never did. Just like IP when he immediately assumed I must approve of the Rouge Squadron starfighter wank without any jusification for that assumption.

You see, comparisons can be used to draw similarities, not just make completely perfect and identical correlations. Someone who isn't retarded would grasp that concept.

Then why are you still arguing? Just concede and fuck off.

Are you fucking blind? I DID CONCEDE, you fucktard. Were you dropped on the head too many times as a child that you can't differentiate between the subject of capabilities of the Death Star, and the Battle of Endor and the political and military composition of the Empire during DE and TTT? Apparently.

Obviously you can't even read what you wrote much less anything anyone else writes. Again I'll ask what part of "Maybe we can take a few of them with us" do you not understand. It's obvious to anyone not retarded that the purpose for closing the range was to give the Rebels the chance at continuing the battle and causing losses to the Imps because the only other option was to cut and run.

Wow, you must feel really special saying something everyone (notice how this would not reasonably be construed to mean everyone on this board or in existence, but rather just me and IP; see below for further detail) else has been saying.

Come back when you have even the slightest modicum of reading ability, dumbfuck.

Then don't say fucking everyone, if you don't mean fucking everyone, that's writing 101.

ROFLMAO!

I'm sorry, I guess I shouldn't presume people here aren't so fucking retarded that they need everything (just to clarify for you, moron, that is not to say everything in existence actually needs to be spelled out, just a hyperbolic literary device to bring emphasis to the scope of what's being said) spelled out for them, like some off-handed "no one knew the Emperor had come back to life and was waiting on Byss."

Of course, nowhere did I actually say everyone was unaware of Palpatine's return (and repeatedly made reference to his "Deep Core domain," his spies, servants like Sate Pestage and Isard), but that would make you look a nit-picking troll, but a knee-jerk little fucktard.

If you acknowledge that the rulers knew about Palpatine why are you arguing that Palpatine had to steal ships, and that the push for Coruscant wasn't under the auspices of Palpatine, especially when the DESB says that Palpatine was using the civil war to thin out the weak and disloyal and that Palpatine was gathering the warlords to himself.

Read my response to IP.

I know Murazor made the claim, but you're the one who brought it up again.

So if no one had any problem with it before, suddenly it's a problem now?

So when I agree with IP I'm a cocksucker and a brown-noser, it couldn't possibly be because you're fucking wrong could it?

No, it has to do with you jumping into an argument you've had absolutely no role in, parroting a bunch of arguments that have either already been answered, have nothing to do with the topic, or just downright lies.

Buzz off, twerp.

And please, don't bother responding. You have absolutely nothing to add beyond more trolling.

You have no business debating on something you admit you know nothing about like you're right. Maybe if you couched your arguments in a bit less certainty and self-righteousness we would give you the beneift of the doubt.

Or, maybe next time you might consider not spazzing out like some hyperactive brats and just freakin' give the sources and information when asked for it.

In the context of this thread, I essentially had the brow-beat IP to give me something more than vague appeals to Saxton and meaningless figures like "it has the power of a medium star!", at which point he had already jumped to the conclusion I'm out to push some preconcieved deception onto this board.

[NRS Guardian]

TC Pilot wrote:

NRS Guardian wrote:

I didn't mention the Lusy or Rogue Squadron, where are you getting that, did you even read the post you quoted?

Wow, great job completely missing the point, shit-for-brains. Rolling Eyes

I'll ask again: where did I dismiss the number? All you can do is dodge and ignore the demand because I never did. Just like IP when he immediately assumed I must approve of the Rouge Squadron starfighter wank without any jusification for that assumption.

You see, comparisons can be used to draw similarities, not just make completely perfect and identical correlations. Someone who isn't retarded would grasp that concept.

What are you talking about? What does this have to do with me saying that I didn't say anything about Lusy or Rogue Squadron? You're the one missing the point. As for where you dismissed the number:
TC Pilot wrote:

How can you honestly accept such disgustingly minimalist numbers?

What are you talking about drawing similarities, drawing similarities to what?

Also, when did I ever lie?

Edit:
TC Pilot wrote:

So if no one had any problem with it before, suddenly it's a problem now?

You're the that brought up Murazor's claim, and asked for a response. I responded. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If you didn't want an answer, why bring up Murazor's claim?

[TC Pilot]

What are you talking about? What does this have to do with me saying that I didn't say anything about Lusy or Rogue Squadron? You're the one missing the point.

Apparently, you're too dim-witted to draw a comparison and just take everything to be the completely unreasonable, absolute literal meaning.

As for where you dismissed the number:

I can see why you'd take that to mean I dismissed the number, but that still requires you to take it completely out of context and ignore the rest of that string of the argument in which both sides obviously accepted the number.

What are you talking about drawing similarities, drawing similarities to what?

Good Lord, you really can't read, can you?

I'm going to quote myself, since you're as similar to Primus here to quote verbatim

Just like IP when he immediately assumed I must approve of the Rouge Squadron starfighter wank without any jusification for that assumption.

Emphasis added.

Seriously, man, just slow down and read what you're responding to before writing.

Also, when did I ever lie?

When you claimed I dismissed the member planet number or that the entire galaxy thought Palpatine was dead.

Though, at this point, it's far more likely you're really just totally oblivious of what's actually going on here. Again, I strongly recommend you slow down and take your time responding so you actually know what you're replying to.

You're the that brought up Murazor's claim, and asked for a response. I responded. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If you didn't want an answer, why bring up Murazor's claim?

You really just don't get it, do you?

Murazor comes here, makes his claim, no one calls him on it, which, from IP's point-of-view, "Just say you agree, or do you what I do, and simply delete quotes from your post that are not in dispute."

If you want an exact quote from the BFC, ask Murazor.

[Murazor]

Sincerely, I didn't expect the post I made three weeks ago to have much impact and as I rarely browse the SW forum I had almost completely forgot about this. Apologies if my silence has been inconvenient for anyone.

At any rate, regarding my claim about the Black Fleet being more powerful under Yevethan control it is derived from the statements about the Yevetha being able to use/build Imperial technology better than the Imperials themselves.

When Leia questions an Imperial prisoner who had visited N'zoth, we have this:

"Is there anything else you can think of that might be useful?" she asked Sconn.
"Just the other thing that the morale officer warned me about my first day in," Sconn said. "'They're crazy, but smart. Don't show them anything you don't want them to start building for themselves."
"You see, the quality ratings for Black Fifteen had nothing to do with the engineering staff or the foremen and everything to do with the Yevethan guildsmen. They've got the gift of understanding how a thing is put together practically on a first glance. Then they draw it from memory the next day, and by the third they've figured out everything that's wrong about it and started making you a better one."
Oh, my stars, Leia thought, hearing it for the second time. The droids at the Imperial factory farm-"Did you see that for yourself, too?"
Sconn nodded. "That number four power cell we were in for? It was replaced by one the Yevetha had rebuilt--and the replacement ran twenty percent over rated capacity at a hundred degrees below the redline, with absolutely no start-up surge. The chief engineer used to say that he expected it'd still be running when the rest of the ship was rust dust."
"Did the Yevethan conscripts work on every part of the ships in the yard? "
"No, of course not," Sconn said. "The Empire was very fond of secrets.
Stang, there were systems on board the Moff Weblin that I wasn't cleared to know the details of. Conscript workers were never let near anything on the secure list--that was true anywhere. And the yard boss at Black Fifteen was especially careful about not letting the Yevetha near the sensitive stuff-- hyperdrives, turbolasers, shield generators, reactors."
Then Sconn smiled with wry amusement. "At least, you'd better hope he was. If you end up having to fight the Yevetha, and what they have looks anything like what we had--well, all I can say is I wish I was going to be there to see it. Nothing personal, mind you," he added.

There are a couple other quotes like this one, but at the moment I can only find this one:

One guard and the Yevethan official climbed in after him, and Han realized that he was to have a traveling companion. The guard sat beside him on the long portside bench, the official opposite him.
"I am Tal Fraan, proctor cogent to the viceroy."
"I'm sure your mother's very proud of you," Han said. The hatch was secured from outside, and the idling whine of the engines increased sharply. He noted that the engines sounded tight and smooth--much better than the typical Imperial offerings.
Tal Fraan loosed an open-mouth hiss that Han thought might be a laugh.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Jesus, what stupid wank that is. Super aliens I just made up in some podunk star cluster are better engineers than the entire Galactic Empire in technological stasis for millennia!

[FTeik]

Perhaps BECAUSE of technological stasis for millenia there are ways to improve things nobody in the mainstray-GFFA thought about.

Not to forget that serious warship-building started only fourty years prior after a thousand years of peace.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its just the kind of stupid thing that a wanking author would write. Everything comes with trade-offs, and a much less technologically sophisticated, diverse, and with a much smaller economic-social base coming up with comprehensive engineering solutions the Imperial Navy did not is stupid. Unless that is, they just happen to be unusually adept at particular engineering and retrofitting those to Imperial warships should come at a trade-off cost that suits their strategic interests but not others. For example, if they're really good at sublight engines and reliable shielding; but the Black Fleet pays for it in systems integration and hyperdrive range. Well that would be more appropriate, I doubt the Yevetha require a galactic-range attack platform anyway.

[TC Pilot]

There do seem to be some distinct disadvantages. The Yevetha seem to have good "talent" at shielding and energy power/distribution, but fairly shoddy weapons and propulsion (they are "thrustships," after all).

So while they can last a long time in a fight, concentrated fleet attacks always seem to go miserably for them, even when it comes to defending their precious homeworld from the "vermin" New Republic, or the genocidal Yuuzhan Vong.

[(name here)]

on the subject of moncal ships vs. star dreadnoughts, the moncal cruisers supposedly had far better shielding than normal for their size, so they could survive longer than one would expect. it's still stupid, though.

[FTeik]

on the subject of moncal ships vs. star dreadnoughts, the moncal cruisers supposedly had far better shielding than normal for their size, so they could survive longer than one would expect. it's still stupid, though.

Not necessarily.

There basically seem to be two ways to deal with an enemy:

a) fire with enough power to overwhelm the shields and burn the ship with one shot

or

b) hammer the shields until the physical components of the shield-system fail.

In case b) redundant shield-generators give your damage-control-crews enough time to repair the broken shield-generator.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Yevetha seem to be rather good engineers in the sense that Qwi Xux was a good scientist - the Empire apparently made them that way. After all, the Yevetha can only build/repair/improve things the Empire has taught them about. Couple a rather forceful Imperial education program with the sort of fantacism and caste system the Yevetha do and they probably would be "better" (in the sense they have nothing to do BUT focus on being engineers.)

That said, their prowess is somewhat overrated given the observable facts. Despite gaining independence shortly after Endor, and having something over a decade to play with Imperial tech and use the captured Black Yards... no super ships. No massive armadas. In fact, they were still making heavy use of thrusthships (which were, for their advantages, still rather inferior to Yevethan designs compared to Imperial ones - particularily firepower.) The Yevetha had at least 15 yards and over a decade to buidl ships (Thrustships were built in their own surface-based yards.). Each yard could build around 9 ISD-sized vessels - they could have easily built hundreds if not thousands of ISDs in that time (or thousands of lesser ships like VSDs.)

Further, while we know they made incremental improvements in at least certain Imperial equipment, making it better, but not significant enough to provide an overwhelming advantage. Nothing i swrong with slight improvements - we've seen minor advancements all the time - but rarely if ever has anything major occured, and innovation is almost unheard of. The Yevetha certainly weren't innovating superweapons. Indeed, most of the Imperial vessels weren't massively qualitatively better than what the NR had (in the sense of say, the Empire vs the Federation.) - nor were the thrusthsips (they never bothered adapting a great deal of Imperial tech to those it would seem either.) You would think they'd have built thrustships with heavier energy weapon armaments or Better repulsors.

I will also point out that while being good engineers can help some in design, Yevethans are not immune from needing to make tradeoffs in design. In the case of a thrustship, they apparently optimize towards munitions/missile weapons (IE missiles and torpedoes) over energy weapons, as well as cutting down dramatically on endurance (moreso than New Class ships did.) They also evidently made do without certain devicecs in their ships (I dont remember Repuslsors being used, for example. Or tractor beams.)

[lord Martiya]

For the number, something could depend from Imperial sabotage: I seriously doubt that the Imperial soldiers wouldn't destroy and sabotage everything they could in a similar event to prevent his fall in enemy hands, so Yevetha had FIRST to repair the broken things before construct new Star Destroyer.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not necessarily.

There basically seem to be two ways to deal with an enemy:

a) fire with enough power to overwhelm the shields and burn the ship with one shot

Wattage is mainly relevant for overwhelming the shield's dissipation rate (and possibly the rate at which shields absorb energy into the sinks, but bleed-through seems pretty minimal under most respects - but it may still be possible - its unliekly the absorption could be 100% efficient.)

Intensity may or may not be a factor (concentrating enough energy onto a single shield point to "burn through" temporarily, though this seems possible given the SPHA-Ts in AOTC. Torpedo spheres seem to suggest this is possible too, and the X-wing novel torpedo attacks tend to simulate such manuvers.

Really, beyond the sink capacity and the dissipation/reradiation rate though, we just dont know enough about shields to make more than educated guesses.

b) hammer the shields until the physical components of the shield-system fail.

In most cases this probably means hammering a ship until its shield bracings give out and the generator is torn from the mountings or knocked out/away. I suppose if you push a generator hard beyond its capacity long enough it might overload or meltdown, but that's about it.

There are also evidedntly a number of ways of "piercing" shields (various countermeasures and whatnot.) or selecitvely weakening them.

Lastly, since shields are basically a series of independently projected overlapping fields through specific generators and projectors and relays, shields won't always be uniformly "strong" - specific arcs (or even segments) might be strengthened or weakend to reinforce others or cover gaps or points where shields have failed. Weak points are of course easier to breach (a potential avenue of attack for fighters - this seemed to be the case agains tthe Droid control ship in TPM.) but also if shields are deployed to reinforce a partitcular arc at the expense of others it will also create weak points (a fact that the TIE fighters pursuing the Falcon after it escaped the DS in ANH exploited - fighters are manuverable enough to get "around" a ship to exploit such gaps.)

[Connor MacLeod]

For the number, something could depend from Imperial sabotage: I seriously doubt that the Imperial soldiers wouldn't destroy and sabotage everything they could in a similar event to prevent his fall in enemy hands, so Yevetha had FIRST to repair the broken things before construct new Star Destroyer.

The takeover by the Yevetha occured as the Imperials were supposedly withdrawing from the area - they destroyed a bunch of transports carrying crew and families and whatnot and captured others. It all happened so quickly that they had little or no time to destroy most things of value - the yards themselves were mostly intact, and the ships as well (they captured the Intimidator really easily, for crying out loud!)

At most, you could argue they destroyed all but a handful of the yards, and the point won't change (much) - they still have an opportunity to build many hundreds of ISDs, and probably more, given their supposedly exaggerated "super engineering" abilities alleged by Sconn's testimony.
If the Empire could build the Executor in less than 6 months, I think the Yevetha could have matched that timeframe asily, if not exceeded it. Instead, the Yevetha had a mere scores of ISD-scale ships (If I remember the numbers in CTD right.. they had the equivalent of two Sector groups in the form of 10 superiority fleets, which amounts to around 3000 ships of varying types, mostly smaller classes though, and only a mere "dozens" of Star Destroyers.)

Sabotage does not seem a viable answer, particularily since the YEvetha are supposed to be skilled technicians and engineers for the imperials by this point.

[FTeik]

I don't think the Yevethans had the resource-base or the infrastructure to build hundreds of ISDs during the decade they controlled the three shipyards. Their own industrie and manufacturing would be suited to their own designs, while the Imperials could have shipped the components and parts for their shipbuilding-efforts from outside into the Koornacht-Cluster.

Concerning their ability to improve existing technology I just finished "Tyrant's Test" a few days ago and in its chapter dealing the escape-preparations of the imperial prisoners it writes, that the Yevethans still needed the help of their former masters in a number of fields one or two years before the events of the BFC.

[(name here)]

on the subject of moncal ships vs. star dreadnoughts, the moncal cruisers supposedly had far better shielding than normal for their size, so they could survive longer than one would expect. it's still stupid, though.

Not necessarily.

There basically seem to be two ways to deal with an enemy:

a) fire with enough power to overwhelm the shields and burn the ship with one shot

or

b) hammer the shields until the physical components of the shield-system fail.

In case b) redundant shield-generators give your damage-control-crews enough time to repair the broken shield-generator.

according to the new essential guide to vehicles and vessels, they have three redundant sets of shield generators, so if they can project a shield that won't collapse when a star dreadnought fired on them, they could hold out for a while, but the star dreadnought could probably destroy generators faster than they could be repaired.

[lord Martiya]

And if a Star Dreadnought fire with all his weapons at one cruiser? Moncal ships may have better shielding than Kuati and Corellian ships of similar size, but hold against a Star Dreadnought with a ship that has problems with a Star Destroyer is at least difficult, even if the Star Dreadnought use only the AA batteries (their sheer number make them an overkill against a Star Cruiser).