Gnostic interpretation of the Force

[seeker001]

In my 1st thread on this board, just a few topics down, I made kind of a big deal about Bob Brown's last few essays...but I think I started off the wrong foot with some regulars here and I want to explain myself.

Aside from the timelessness of Star Wars ("ep4", meaning no offense to anyone, of course)--and lightsabers--I've felt that most of SW, EU mostly but otherwise as well, was kind of boring, generic science fantasy. Behind-the-scenes material have always been far more interesting than corresponding final products.

Until two things.

1) the dark side of the Jedi. Kidnapping children to breed out Force-users in either concious or unconcious slavish devotion to dogma? Sounds interesting. That's where my interest in Bob Brown came in. I've just never thought about SW enough to think of this angle.

2) KOTOR2. It's a great game with a spiffy plot, but what's this? Darth Traya wants to fight back against the Force itself? For being the cause of devastating conflicts between light and dark users! And she'll do it by...destroying the Force! By causing a huge, festering version of the Alderran wound! That shit is AWESOME. GNOSTIC.

People fighting against an uncaring galaxy-spanning entity that, possibly knowingly, causes conflict for its own unknowable ends. BUT...Bob Brown might have an answer! Or at least a possible explanation...or at least one great chronicle of the Jedi's hubris.

A pinch of gnosticism goes well with any intellectual property, but I don't know if this theme was touched on more in SW.

[Stark]

Don't get me started on how retarded the KOTOR2 plot is. Transplanting fantasy plots into SW with no modification = lame, and all the RPGs and shooters have done it. Oh noes, the evil wizard has his super item and wants to kill evverrrabodah!

If you think the best thing about SW is some made-up, lameass crap from a game, you're wierd.

[Battlehymn Republic]

The concept of getting cut off from the Force is very problematic, considering that the Force is in all life itself. I prefer to think that people who are "cut off" merely have their abilities to manipulate the Force for their neat magical powers severed, not the Force itself.

That said, I wholeheartedly endorse the madcap boondoggle to blow up the Force. Think about it- No Sith. No Jedi. Only man.

[seeker001]

The concept of getting cut off from the Force is very problematic, considering that the Force is in all life itself. I prefer to think that people who are "cut off" merely have their abilities to manipulate the Force for their neat magical powers severed, not the Force itself.

Well, I've given this some thought. Assuming you accept midichlorians, you can think of temporarily cutting oneself off the force as mass disruption of your own midichlorians in some self-feedback thing--whether a forced outburst of emotion, actual directed force-whatever at own midichlorians, or some biological poison that disables midis for a time.

Permanent reduction of Force manipulation abilities would be shutting down one's own midi genes. Hey, they're Jedi. Why not protein-scale manipulation? It's not like it's atom-scale.

But yes, I'm not sure how to interpret "cutting off" completely. For the matter at hand, I guess it doesn't matter too much.

Cutting oneself off also means that you can't sense the Force, and as such cannot act out its will (assuming it has one) or be manipulated by the Force (as opposed to by force users).

That said, I wholeheartedly endorse the madcap boondoggle to blow up the Force. Think about it- No Sith. No Jedi. Only man.

I know. I really like where this train of though is going.

[Stark]

You should totally make some more stuff up. Start writing for the EU, I hear they have pretty low standards. Your statements re 'midi genes' are particularly nonsensical and EU-worthy. The best EU authors, after all, are those that force their own preconceptions or attitudes into SW with no concern over whether it fits the setting or makes any fucking sense.

You have to explain how you 'like where this train of thought is going'. Beyond 'ties into your bias toward gnostic bullshit', how is it interesting dramatically or reasonable in-universe? Is it just pop-philosophical bullshit? Why not blow up gravity, isn't that 'gnostic-chic' enough for you?

Removing someone's ability to use the Force is stupid, but at least concievable (if executed in a totally retarded way in KOTOR2). Since machines can manipulate the Force, any attempt to 'destroy' it would seem doomed to failure (even if it made sense on a conceptual level, which it doesn't).

Looking forward to you ignoring my post. I might go start a 'blow up magic in Harry Potter' thread, actually.

[seeker001]

You should totally make some more stuff up. Start writing for the EU, I hear they have pretty low standards. Your statements re 'midi genes' are particularly nonsensical and EU-worthy. The best EU authors, after all, are those that force their own preconceptions or attitudes into SW with no concern over whether it fits the setting or makes any fucking sense.

You should totally make some more stuff up. Start writing for the EU, I hear they have pretty low standards. Your statements re 'midi genes' are particularly nonsensical and EU-worthy. The best EU authors, after all, are those that force their own preconceptions or attitudes into SW with no concern over whether it fits the setting or makes any fucking sense.

It's just a creative way to interpret something that's intrinsically EU. A quick little thought experiment. In ep4, the Force is nothing--it's just a metaphor for letting oneself go. Even the lightsaber is nothing. It's an analogy for older times and for forty pound swords.

*I* didn't make up midis as a biological entity, and *I* didn't make up Jedis having a upper age limit for training. *I* certainly didn't make up the constellation of light/dark side interpretations.

The Force was nothing in the beginning, and it's long since become nothing. What's wrong with some creative interpretation? Better that than butchering things like the validity of a Trench Run or the appearance of stars during a hyperspace jump.

Why not salvage something out of it? You don't seem to enjoy the EU, why not melt it down and get a little spiffiness out? For instance, even if you loathed EP3, why not notice that lightsaber give a little "kick" when activated and thus be amused?

[Ritterin Sophia]

For the last time, all evidence points to midichlorians being an indicator, not the cause of the Force. For example, there exist a species of sentient, silicon-based, crystaline, lifeforms that are force sensitive, do these have midichlorians? Of course not, they don't have a blood system for them to exist in.

[Dooey Jo]

You have to explain how you 'like where this train of thought is going'. Beyond 'ties into your bias toward gnostic bullshit', how is it interesting dramatically or reasonable in-universe? Is it just pop-philosophical bullshit? Why not blow up gravity, isn't that 'gnostic-chic' enough for you?

Hey man, isn't there a Satan character in Star Wars somewhere? Like Darth Mail, he's red and got horns. We should totally start proclaiming him as good, because he represents a rebellion against this bad demiurge that is the Force. Even though the Force has none of the properties that Gnosticism attributes to the demiurge. Did the Force create life? Oops, no it was the other way around. Does it cause conflicts and deceive? No, that's actually the Sith being emo bitches.

And if the evil Jedi really wanted to breed out the Force, why the hell are they so anal about this whole age requirement thing? Shouldn't they at least send those that aren't accepted off to be executed, to prevent them from breeding?

[Publius]

It is worth noting that Ulic Qel-Droma's ability to sense and use the Force was blocked in The Sith War, but he still vanished on death in Redemption. It is quite obvious that the "blocking" of the Force is an impermanent manipulation of the victim.

[seeker001]

For the last time, all evidence points to midichlorians being an indicator, not the cause of the Force. For example, there exist a species of sentient, silicon-based, crystaline, lifeforms that are force sensitive, do these have midichlorians? Of course not, they don't have a blood system for them to exist in.

So far, my thinking is that midis is one way to interface with the Force. Higher midi concentration = stronger interface.

Hey man, isn't there a Satan character in Star Wars somewhere? Like Darth Mail, he's red and got horns. We should totally start proclaiming him as good, because he represents a rebellion against this bad demiurge that is the Force. Even though the Force has none of the properties that Gnosticism attributes to the demiurge.

Just limiting it to the movies alone, even Qui-gon knew the Jedi council wasn't right all the time, and insisted on training anakin even though he's 1) past the age limit and 2) has fear.

[Dooey Jo]

Just limiting it to the movies alone, even Qui-gon knew the Jedi council wasn't right all the time, and insisted on training anakin even though he's 1) past the age limit and 2) has fear.

And..? The fact that they have such rules tells us that they are not hell-bent on kidnapping every last force sensitive person in the galaxy. Qui-Gon never said anything about the Force being something that you should or, hell, could wipe out or get away from. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda say that the Force is generated by life itself; it'd still be there, even without Jedi or Sith.

Of course, you could say that Obi and Yoda don't know what they're talking about, but then you're throwing out pretty much all knowledge we have on the subject, in favour of reinterpreting it as a misguided god-thing.

[Battlehymn Republic]

I never said that the Force should be blown up, per se. Removing the Force from Star Wars kills the whole point of the series. Out of universe, opposing the Force seems to be a fun quixotic, contrarian thing to do. It's like opting to be an Inquisition hunter when you're playing Vampire: the Masquerade. Or cheering for the mortal Watcher hunters to eliminate those high and mighty Immortals. Or hoping the Muggles of Britain will wake up to the fact that their existence is at the mercy of a small population of mages up to no good.

Admittedly, I do want to get rid of the Jedi and Sith. But that's only because they're tired and cliche, and should be replaced by new Force using organizations. And it gave me the clumsy opening for a Bioshock reference. Andrew Ryan is infinitely paraphrasable.

That said, while characterizing the Jedi as incompetent and too wrapped up in the greater good is acceptable, you really can't make them into villains. Then you'll be guilty of doing the same thing Karen Traviss does by nerfing the Jedi. And it's stupid anyhows, because you're messing with the very simple Good vs. Evil dualism that's the basis of Star Wars.

[seeker001]

That said, while characterizing the Jedi as incompetent and too wrapped up in the greater good is acceptable, you really can't make them into villains. Then you'll be guilty of doing the same thing Karen Traviss does by nerfing the Jedi. And it's stupid anyhows, because you're messing with the very simple Good vs. Evil dualism that's the basis of Star Wars.

Well, perhaps I said the word "kidnapped" too often. They don't HAVE to be evil, they just have to unknowingly hold back advancement. That's part of the tragedy that Bob Brown was writing about/may have written about. The current Jedi followers unknowingly follow an unfaithfully transmitted version of ancient Force learnings, and as a result brought about their own downfall--itself possibly partially the will of the Force.

They don't HAVE to kidnap children, they can just refuse to train those beyond an age...then ensure that they screen enough force-sensitives so that unnoticed force sensitives don't gather in large enough numbers to fully explore Force abilities.

EDIT: I'm not trying to inject anything into the canon, I'm just trying to look at it from a different angle.

[Stark]

I never said that the Force should be blown up, per se. Removing the Force from Star Wars kills the whole point of the series. Out of universe, opposing the Force seems to be a fun quixotic, contrarian thing to do. It's like opting to be an Inquisition hunter when you're playing Vampire: the Masquerade. Or cheering for the mortal Watcher hunters to eliminate those high and mighty Immortals. Or hoping the Muggles of Britain will wake up to the fact that their existence is at the mercy of a small population of mages up to no good.

The things you list are less retarded than removing the Force. It's like removing gravity or the colour red, because you think that'd be 'gnostic'. As you note it would do bad things to the series, but the very idea doesn't even make any sense.

Admittedly, I do want to get rid of the Jedi and Sith. But that's only because they're tired and cliche, and should be replaced by new Force using organizations. And it gave me the clumsy opening for a Bioshock reference. Andrew Ryan is infinitely paraphrasable.

In that way he's a laughably lame pastiche?

In the current EU, the Jedi and Sith are essentially gone anyway. For 'Brand Reasons' the new organisations just use the names (both in- and out-of-universe I imagine). I agree that while the Jedi/Sith conflict could be compelling,the current EU idea of 'zomg with swords' and '20000 years ago something the same happened' just makes it lame.

That said, while characterizing the Jedi as incompetent and too wrapped up in the greater good is acceptable, you really can't make them into villains. Then you'll be guilty of doing the same thing Karen Traviss does by nerfing the Jedi. And it's stupid anyhows, because you're messing with the very simple Good vs. Evil dualism that's the basis of Star Wars.

I disagree. While I think this guy has utterly retarded ideas about circle-jerking to his favourite philosophical mumbo-jumbo, it's relatively easy to characterise the Jedi in a poor light. This is more effective in the Publius 'use the facts' manner than the seeker001 'make shit up for teh great gnosis'. I don't think the story needs the Jedi (or any individual Jedi) to be a positive hero thing: the simplistic morality of the series is a function of the writer, not the situation.

Death to the Force maaaan! Down with the powah!

[Battlehymn Republic]

The things you list are less retarded than removing the Force. It's like removing gravity or the colour red, because you think that'd be 'gnostic'. As you note it would do bad things to the series, but the very idea doesn't even make any sense.

Plotwise and universe-constraints wise, it wouldn't do to remove the Force. However, I wouldn't mind seeing another bunch of crazies try in vain to do it. Because the fringe perspective of "the Force is an evil god" is kind of amusing, if misguided and wrong. Even if we know you can't- or shouldn't- kill the Force doesn't mean characters do. And at the very least they would be a group of villains with a different set of motives from your typical Dark Sider.

The Force is more like fate rather than gravity or radiation. It almost does seem sentient at times, or at least capable of distinguishing between the personalities of sentient beings. So it would be interesting that after all the conflicts between the Jedi and Sith someone just goes, "screw this shit, giving people superpowers and making them follow an invisible will in the sky is a bad idea."

Ultimately, though, in-universe it should be made clear that you can't actually blow up the Force. Even if it makes for a nice doomed ideology.

[Stark]

Ah, but that's already better than the KOTOR2 thing, where she honestly thought she could do it and everyone acted like she could.

[seeker001]

Hey Stark, why are you even here? I'm a newbie inspired by a Bob Brown angle, coming here to see what people infinitely better-versed in SW has to say.

Lemme run down the topics current on the forum.

"How many ways could the Empire divide against itself?"

Your answer: in exactly as many ways as it divided itself as presented in the comics, website, novels, technical commentaries, and RPG sourcebooks.

"How effective is Ship armour in Star Wars?"

Your answer: precisely as effective as it is depicted in the comics, website, novels, technical commentaries, and RPG sourcebooks.

"Are there any treatments of the economic situation in the SW galaxy? Things like unemployment rates, poverty, etc? The implication in the films is that all of the poverty is concentrated on the Outer Rim with the Core worlds being reliably prosperous, but does that really make sense? Especially with the upheavals that must have taken place during the Clone Wars?"

Your answer: Because there is no treatment of the economic situation beyond poverty in the outer rims and lower cities, there exists no unemployment in the Star Wars universe as it is depicted in the comics, website, novels, technical commentaries, and RPG sourcebooks.

[Stark]

Um, what? Did you just invent things I said? Are you trying to be clever?

I have zero interest in changing your mind. I think your idea is stupid and I'm laughing at it, and you aren't even trying to defend it from issues with it's practicality or effect on the franchise. You haven't even made an attempt to explain what is 'gnostic' about removing the Force from Star Wars or b) why this would be a good thing beyond 'being more gnostic'. Frankly, saying the Force is the cause of conflict is like saying gold is the cause of conflict. Let's blow up the gold! SO GNOSTIC!

You remember how everyone told you Rob Brown's essay just made a whole bunch of shit up? You're even open about just wanting to 'melt it down' to force your favourite philosophical bullshit in!

If you removed the Force (particularly from the post ROTJ world) it wouldn't really make much difference beyond removing some plot elements. The political bodies and philosophies aren't Force based: even the Sith and Jedi would still hate each other without the Force. Just because you think it's cool to kill the evil spirit that makes us do bad things doesn't mean this makes any sense, is relevant, or a good idea.

[seeker001]

How is that different from what anyone is trying to do in this forum?

How powerful is a turbolaser? It's just a device representing the overwhelming power of the Empire, don't try to melt it down and inject your favourite angle in! Even if that angle is implications or in-universe consistency!

Is there unemployment in Star Wars? Screw you! Anakin's slavery is just a device representing the conditions from which he is brought out of, don't try to melt it down and inject your favourite angle in! Even if that angle is implications or in-universe consistency!

How are hyperspace lanes discovered? Go home! Hyperspace lanes is just a device for moving people from one place to another, don't try to melt it down and inject your favourite angle in! Even if that angle is implications or in-universe consistency!

EVERYTHING beyond characters dying and inflections in their dialogue is a device. Get off your high horse pretending that your favorite ivory tower minaret topping is more untouchable than others. Where yours = the Force, apparently.

[Stark]

Okay, you're comparing 'quantify this observation' with 'zomg wouldn't it be GNOSTIC if we blew up the Force'? Are you saying that because your idea is daft, I'd say the same thing about actual measurements or conclusions? You'll notice I have no problem with the works of Publius (indeed, he is the only reason I know jack shit about EU events), because he follows the evidence and synthesizes a conclusion. He doesn't say 'Palpatine is satan cool'.

It appears that you're taking a literary perspective, so why don't you explain why it would be better at all (aside from MORE GNOSTIC)? I noticed above you launched into hilarious out-of-universe commentary ('the lightsabre is nothing but a symbol for old times' for instance). Your strawman nonsense (particularly your literary arts bullshit explanation for unemployment which you attribute to me) really highlights your subjective, out-of-universe attitude. It doesn't actually defend your idea. Ironically, *YOU'RE* the one with the literary, dismissive attitude towards actual evidence and explanations of how the Force works, so you're being extraordinarily dishonest.

If someone made a commentary on something SW that I thought was stupid and laughed at, I'd expect they'd defend it. Publius can certainly back his shit right up: his knowledge of SW is remarkable. Observations are easy to defend. Why are you just whinging instead of explaining why it would be better/a good idea/whatever?

Regarding your final statement, what the fuck are you even fucking talking about? My position isn't subjective literary analysis: it's positive statements. You're the one talking in circles about literary devices and ignoring criticism or getting shitty about it. That you think I'm somehow invested in the Force JUST BECAUSE I THINK YOUR IDEA IS FUCKING STUPID is pathetic. You think that introducing gnostic themes into anything makes it better, and haven't even fucking ATTEMPTED to show how this is the case here. Are we supposed to take your fucking word for it? Do your work for you? Just smile and nod?

[Ritterin Sophia]

So far, my thinking is that midis is one way to interface with the Force. Higher midi concentration = stronger interface.

That does not address how non-carbon beings would 'interface' with the Force, you're taking the evidence and twisting it or throwing it right the fuck out if it doesn't fit your personal interpretation of the Force. Again, there's no evidence what so ever to believe that the Force is caused by midichlorians, rather than midichlorians being an indicator. That also ignores the fact that a larger being should, by virtue of having more blood and more midichlorians in it's system, be more powerful than a smaller creature, yet Yoda was recognized as the most powerful Jedi alive before the Empire destroyed the Jedi Order.

[Lord Poe]

Before I begin, seeker001, if you continue to bring up Bob Brown's name, I'm going to nominate you for the coveted "Mr. Oragahn Cockgoblin" award.

1) the dark side of the Jedi. Kidnapping children to breed out Force-users in either concious or unconcious slavish devotion to dogma? Sounds interesting. That's where my interest in Bob Brown came in. I've just never thought about SW enough to think of this angle.

Brown is a great guy, but while this is interesting, it is ultimately flawed. You can't "breed out" Force users. This line of thought came up due to Anakin's statement that Jedi "aren't allowed to love." Well, children found to be strong in the Force doesn't necessarily mean they have to be born from Jedi. Look at Anakin.

People fighting against an uncaring galaxy-spanning entity that, possibly knowingly, causes conflict for its own unknowable ends. BUT...Bob Brown might have an answer! Or at least a possible explanation...or at least one great chronicle of the Jedi's hubris.

The Force is not an "entity". It's an energy field that those strong in the Force can utilize.

It's just a creative way to interpret something that's intrinsically EU. A quick little thought experiment. In ep4, the Force is nothing--it's just a metaphor for letting oneself go. Even the lightsaber is nothing. It's an analogy for older times and for forty pound swords.

Bullshit. Luke blocking laserbots while blinded is not a metaphor. Darth Vader choking an Imperial without laying a hand on him is not a metaphor. Ben Kenobi sensing the death of millions is not a metaphor. Ben Kenobi using the Force to make a sound in another part of a room is not a metaphor.

For instance, even if you loathed EP3, why not notice that lightsaber give a little "kick" when activated and thus be amused?

What's that mean to you, exactly? A device of great power reacting to being activated is now a brain bug?

So far, my thinking is that midis is one way to interface with the Force. Higher midi concentration = stronger interface.

I always laugh at people that get up in arms about midichlorians, as if Ep1 "changed things." Your interpretation is correct; all sentient beings have midis, and the higher their midi count is, the more likely the possibility they can conciously manipulate the Force. The midi don't, and never have, "create" the Force, or are the "cause" of the Force.

Just limiting it to the movies alone, even Qui-gon knew the Jedi council wasn't right all the time, and insisted on training anakin even though he's 1) past the age limit and 2) has fear.

Uh, just limiting it to the movies, it looks like Qui-Gon the Jedi Creationist was the one who was wrong. The Jedi Council seemed to know exactly what it was doing by eliminating certain individuals from training. (And strangely enough, a reject like Anakin wasn't taken away and beheaded. Something that would fly in the face of evil Jedi eliminating Force users.) If Anakin weren't trained, Palpatine wouldn't have his linchpin to bring down the Jedi Order from within.

How is that different from what anyone is trying to do in this forum?

How powerful is a turbolaser? It's just a device representing the overwhelming power of the Empire, don't try to melt it down and inject your favourite angle in! Even if that angle is implications or in-universe consistency!

Is there unemployment in Star Wars? Screw you! Anakin's slavery is just a device representing the conditions from which he is brought out of, don't try to melt it down and inject your favourite angle in! Even if that angle is implications or in-universe consistency!

How are hyperspace lanes discovered? Go home! Hyperspace lanes is just a device for moving people from one place to another, don't try to melt it down and inject your favourite angle in! Even if that angle is implications or in-universe consistency!

EVERYTHING beyond characters dying and inflections in their dialogue is a device. Get off your high horse pretending that your favorite ivory tower minaret topping is more untouchable than others. Where yours = the Force, apparently.

Just an observation: where are you cutting and pasting this from? You went from the U.K. spelling of "favourite" in your above diatribe to the U.S. version at the end.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hey Stark, why are you even here? I'm a newbie inspired by a Bob Brown angle, coming here to see what people infinitely better-versed in SW has to say.

Lemme run down the topics current on the forum.

"How many ways could the Empire divide against itself?"

Your answer: in exactly as many ways as it divided itself as presented in the comics, website, novels, technical commentaries, and RPG sourcebooks.

"How effective is Ship armour in Star Wars?"

Your answer: precisely as effective as it is depicted in the comics, website, novels, technical commentaries, and RPG sourcebooks.

"Are there any treatments of the economic situation in the SW galaxy? Things like unemployment rates, poverty, etc? The implication in the films is that all of the poverty is concentrated on the Outer Rim with the Core worlds being reliably prosperous, but does that really make sense? Especially with the upheavals that must have taken place during the Clone Wars?"

Your answer: Because there is no treatment of the economic situation beyond poverty in the outer rims and lower cities, there exists no unemployment in the Star Wars universe as it is depicted in the comics, website, novels, technical commentaries, and RPG sourcebooks.

Maybe because these are defined as the relevant and authoritative sources when it comes to the question, "what is the authentic story of Star Wars?" There is no dispute. Furthermore, often we must develop theories or bridges of interpretation to cross particularly egregious violations of realism and apparently contradictory sources or incomplete explanations. See Publius' site, domuspublica (dot) net for more. The Imperial "advisors" "courtiers", etc. are very poorly detailed in the material, but he was, for example, able to sensible demonstrate that the best model for what was going on in the Imperial government is that these men were Privy Counselors to the Imperial Throne, and from there we can draw historical analogs and parallels and further enrich our understanding.

Just positing whatever you please gets us nowhere, because you essentially wouldn't need to be talking about Star Wars.

I also would like to add that there are Sith planets, Sith cults and heresies, and all manner of other Force using religious cults and orders that the Jedi neither annhiliated nor forced to convert. And this goes for both the old and new Jedi Orders.

[PainRack]

1) the dark side of the Jedi. Kidnapping children to breed out Force-users in either concious or unconcious slavish devotion to dogma? Sounds interesting. That's where my interest in Bob Brown came in. I've just never thought about SW enough to think of this angle.

Errr....... no. Brown never did say anything about breeding out Force users.
Kidnapping children and slavish dogmatic adherence to Jedi philosophy, at the expense of developing the Force were just some of the points of the Star Wars as Greek tragedy and IIRC, Dark side of Jedi. Sure, he injected some parts about how the NJO allowing jedi to marry but that's just..........................
Indeed, the Dark Side of Jedi essentially contemplated the Jedi as being something equivalent to the Church stamping out alternative interpretations of the Force, and the Sith being "heretics" as opposed to evil, and its just a point bit speculation. Nice and fancy, and valid in the sense that who's to say that the Jedi view of the Force is the true one?

We seen this debate replicated in the NJO briefly and taken to the "normal" wankiness by Vegere and Living vs Unifying Force fans...................... Its time for this fan craze to die.