Wookiepedia WTF Death Star 2 accuracy and IG-88

[Batman]

No. They did what they were explicitly stated to do in AotC-notice that guess what, Kamino's gravitational influence on the rest of the universe didn't go away.

And how, pray tell, would they detect a gravitational interaction without some sort of sensor to detect it? You do realize that even a fucking telescope constitutes a sensor, right?

As a matter of fact yes I do, thank you very much.
I never argued Wars doesn't have sensors period. Not only would that be incredibly stupid, it is contradicted by countless canon incidents. I argued that their ability to tell that Kamino still existed does NOT equal the ability to detect test-firings of the DSII.

I also notice you decided to ignore the "probe droid" issue

I did no such thing.

This is priceless. Not only do you refuse to address the point, but when called on it, you simply state you did and then refuse to address the point!

You know what, you're right. I DID ignore the probe droid issue.
BECAUSE IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Any Probe Droid spawn that would have detected the DSII weapon trials would have found the DSII construction site anyway.

Probe droid spams are quite possible. More to the point, the Republic was able to scour the entire galaxy to find Grevious in a day or two (ROTS takes place over the course of a mere 6 days). Care to explain either of those possibilities?

Care to explain how those Probe Droid spams would manage to notice the DSII test firings but NOT the construction of the bloody thing?

No. I DO assume the energy release needed to kill a practice target, or a capital ship at that, is rather drowned out by the star the DSII is orbiting.

Even if the shots were the same power, the target would be less massive then the star, and thus have a greater luminosity[/quote]
The term 'no' comes to mind. But feel free to explain how a practice target massing a couple hundred hundred tons or so being vapourized is more noticeable than a bleeding STAR.

If it ISN'T, one wonders why those sensors didn't detect the reactor POWERING the aforementioned shots.

Way to torpedo your own argument. That provides a very good explanation of why they wouldn't want to test it in the first place.

If one believed they could detect the test to begin with, but I admit you got me there.

No clue. I fail to see how that is relevant.

They happen all the fucking time, so there is nothing extraordinary about it. How stupid are you that you don't see the relevance of that point?

I dunno. Maybe that'd be the part where they're easily as noticeable (or not) as DS level weapon trials?

A weapons test, particularily of the DS2's magnitude, is going to be a TAD more detectable and unusual than a mere construction project.

The term 'no' comes to mind.

Stunning counter-argument. Aiming to get this HOSed?

Not really, though it appears you are. Since any recon effort that would detect a DSII weapon test, ESPECIALLY one limited to shipkiller levels, would inevitably detect the DSII construction project ANYWAY...

Baseless assumption. [/quote
]Are you just trolling this thread now? The entire point of a test is to make sure it works, you are claiming that they would have done a test, but not tested to make sure it works?

I did no such thing. I assume that, for the time being, they didn't intend to use the DS superlaser past shipkiller level firepower, so there's no reason to assume they TESTED it past shipkiller firepower.
Not that it would make any difference if they did as any scouting mission that noticed the tests would notice the construction program, too.

Which means they didn't test the DSII at full power. I can't recall ever claiming they did.

Firstly, not testing it at full power would defeat the purpose of a test.

Um no it wouldn't? They'd need to EVENTUALLY test it at full power. That doesn't mean they can't do preliminary tests at reduced power to make sure the bloody thing works to begin with.

Secondly even if it was in the 10^27 range needed to one-shot capital ships, he target would be so energetic that it would outshine the star!

I stand corrected, then. Doesn't keep them from shooting at empty space or less massive targets, though.

Which, if they existed to the extent to which you want them to, would have detected the DSII project REGARDLESS:

A huge base being built is nothing notable - nothing even says the Empire is doing it, it could be a corporation building a shipyard, base, etc. A superweapon being tested is highly noticeable.

I rather suspect a DS being built stands out either way.

[phred]

When I read the story my impression was that IG-88 adjusted the guns to change the shot from being "Good Enough" to a solid, center of the ship impressive hit.

Secondly, it was the Empire with the probe droid spam. The Rebels, IIRC, didnt have that capability at that point. They found out about the DS through their spy network.

Third. Honestly? You think the first test firing of the Superlaser was during the battle? Seriously? This would be like the Germans in WW1 rolling out a new battleship and waiting to test their big guns against British aircraft.

I can easily think of a way to test the superlaser without it being detected. Put the target between the DS and massive object. (A) Endor. you know the gas giant planet that the moon of Endor was orbiting? (B) The forest moon of Endor which the DS was orbiting. (C) The sun of the Endor system.
All 3 would nicely absorb a test firing of the superlaser at the required levels seen in the movie

[Darth Ruinus]

I still dont get why the Rebels would detect the DS's superlaser but not detect the traffic out in the middle of nowhere.

[Ender]

I never argued Wars doesn't have sensors period. Not only would that be incredibly stupid, it is contradicted by countless canon incidents. I argued that their ability to tell that Kamino still existed does NOT equal the ability to detect test-firings of the DSII.

DOdge the point much?

You know what, you're right. I DID ignore the probe droid issue.
BECAUSE IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Any Probe Droid spawn that would have detected the DSII weapon trials would have found the DSII construction site anyway.

Given that a star battlecruiser grade main reactor, a full planetary shield, and heavy ion cannon aren't even blinked at, considering that a nearby system builds repulsors (an operation that involves constructions sites built on black holes), that construction on this scale is par for the course, what the hell would make it stand out beyond the weapon firing? Most of the groups able to do a probe droid spam have no idea what the Death Star was.

But hey, at least you finally copped to being a liar.

Care to explain how those Probe Droid spams would manage to notice the DSII test firings but NOT the construction of the bloody thing?

You mean aside from the fact that the firing would be releasing a signal that can be observed from far off, where as you have to specifically look for the construction?

The term 'no' comes to mind. But feel free to explain how a practice target massing a couple hundred hundred tons or so being vapourized is more noticeable than a bleeding STAR.

Would it fucking kill you to know basic entry level physics? Shoot something with a laser, you heat it up. High temperatures emit light. Get it greater then 5000k, the luminosity is greater then that of the sun.

"The term 'no' comes to mind"... are you answering the question of do you know what the fuck you are talking about?

If one believed they could detect the test to begin with, but I admit you got me there.

So basically, your argument is dependent on you not knowing what a blackbody radiator is, and you decide to cap it with a smiley to make sure it is passive aggressive pussy shit. Nice.

I dunno. Maybe that'd be the part where they're easily as noticeable (or not) as DS level weapon trials?

Do you seriously not see the fucking difference between something passively sitting in orbit and a new point of light that out shines the local fucking primary?

Not really, though it appears you are. Since any recon effort that would detect a DSII weapon test, ESPECIALLY one limited to shipkiller levels, would inevitably detect the DSII construction project ANYWAY...

Yeah, aiming for HOS. Ok then.

1) Not necessarily. One is actively emitting something that can be detected, the other is passively sitting there.
2) Seeing something is being built doesn't mean anything more then something is being built. Other players don't know what the Death Star looks like, they never examined the plans. They won't give shit that something is being built there, but when they see that whatever it is is a god damned superweapon they will take notice.

I did no such thing. I assume that, for the time being, they didn't intend to use the DS superlaser past shipkiller level firepower, so there's no reason to assume they TESTED it past shipkiller firepower.
Not that it would make any difference if they did as any scouting mission that noticed the tests would notice the construction program, too.

How is it that you can't wrap your head around the difference between "active" and "passive"?

Construction is visible within the angular resolution of your telescope, and dependent on the aldebo of the project
Weapons test anywhere within the fucking lightcone of the test, obvious to anyone who has heard of the EM spectrum.

Um no it wouldn't? They'd need to EVENTUALLY test it at full power. That doesn't mean they can't do preliminary tests at reduced power to make sure the bloody thing works to begin with.

Which means they still need to end up testing it at full power. Quit the fucking word games.

I stand corrected, then. Doesn't keep them from shooting at empty space or less massive targets, though.

The less massive the target the more obvious this is! Jesus christ, did you go to high school? Do you know how to calculate temperature change in a material? Have you ever heard of a blackbody radiator? Do you have any idea how we study stars? Apply thermal energy, temperature of mass goes up. Temp goes up, luminosity goes up. Luminosity increases, the brighter it is. Brighter it is, easier to see it.

I rather suspect a DS being built stands out either way.

And now we are down to your tautology that it will stand out despite the fact there is nothig that indicates it is anything out of the ordinary.

[Darth Ruinus]

Ah, my question has been answered.

[Darth Hoth]

Seeing as how telescopes were used to collect the data to formulate the theories like Kepler's laws and universal gravitation, I'm gonna go ahead and ask you to kick your history teacher in the nuts. First notes from astronomers about optical telescopes are in the 1000's. Gallelio used a telescope, as did Kepler (in fact Kepler invented his own refracting telescope)

I merely meant telescopes that were not capable of allowing for the observation of planets as far out as, say, Neptunus, which was detected by its gravitational effects on Uranus's orbit.

Yes, but to see the stars to measure them, you need a telescope.

Hm, re-reading the appropriate passage, I may have misunderstood the original argument. Never mind.

[Junghalli]

You mean aside from the fact that the firing would be releasing a signal that can be observed from far off, where as you have to specifically look for the construction?

Would it really be an issue if the radiation spreads at c though? Unless it could be observed with some kind of FTL sensor I'd think it wouldn't really matter if the blast was observable from far off, because the light would take years at least to get to the nearest inhabited system. By that time I don't think they'd care about keeping the project secret.

[Junghalli]

Ghetto edit: the above does assume there was nothing else in the system at the time.

[Cykeisme]

That's a good point.
Since the entire construction period was only about six months, and the EM pulse from the firing only lasts a few seconds.

As I understand it, it would sort of be an expanding spherical shell with the radius increasing at C, and someone would have to be within half a light year of Endor (and at specific time for any particular given distance) to have seen it.

Considering how remote Endor is, chances are remote.

That is all assuming that a superlaser firing doesn't give off some sort of FTL sign, though.

[Darth Yoshi]

Death Star says that the original superlaser actually blew part of the target mass into hyperspace, so it's not out of the question.

[Ender]

The assumption is that in a probe droid spam you will be sending them to all the systems. That is how it would see the firing and relay the info via holonet/hyperwave.