When did Anakin Skywalker become a sociopath?

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Alyrium Denryle
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Any objective evidence to back up Windu's POV?
Irrelevant. Can you imagine what is essentially a Dark SIde Nexus in a court? Saying he can play even the prosecutor like a fiddle is an understatement
Why would the Senate be grateful, the jedi just killed a beloved statesmen, who led the country in a time of war. Why would the Senate applaud that?
After it is revealed that he is the sith lord that instigated the war? There are other people that knew, that blue-skinned guy (probably) and the resources he was slinging around probably wont stand up to a forensic accountant. Thing is, they had to remove him from office before they can gather evidence.
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Post by Darth Hoth »

Knife wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:
Which they would have puppetised by then, but yes.

Any objective evidence to back up that notion?
Yes, I believe I posted a quote on page 1 of this very thread.
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Darth Hoth
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Post by Darth Hoth »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Any objective evidence to back up Windu's POV?
Irrelevant. Can you imagine what is essentially a Dark SIde Nexus in a court? Saying he can play even the prosecutor like a fiddle is an understatement
They must have means of dealing with overt mind control, seeing as to how (relatively) common telepaths are in the galaxy. Otherwise, justice would turn into a joke throughout all the Republic. Ysalamiri, perhaps? The Zahn books said the Jedi and the Old Republic knew of them.
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Post by Karmic Knight »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Irrelevant. Can you imagine what is essentially a Dark SIde Nexus in a court? Saying he can play even the prosecutor like a fiddle is an understatement
Palpatine Doesn't even have to do that, the Jedi have NO Case against him, they just have the Hearsay of an unstable member of the jedi order itself, and vague premonitions, which wouldn't hold up in a court.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:After it is revealed that he is the sith lord that instigated the war? There are other people that knew, that blue-skinned guy (probably) and the resources he was slinging around probably wont stand up to a forensic accountant. Thing is, they had to remove him from office before they can gather evidence.
How? By the time the body hits the floor, the Pro-Palpatine Supermajority calls for the arrest or murders of Every Jedi. Why, Because they killed the fucking Elected leader, you don't just bounce back from killing the president to moral authority and justified people. Also, why would Palpatine's own people rat out their beloved leader, who just happened to believe in a cult that promised and delivered eternal life?
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Post by Darth Nostril »

IIRC the investigation into the true identity of Darth Sidious had led the Jedi to Coruscant through fairly strong evidence (Nute Gunrays walker chair memory cache?), which pointed to one of Palpatines inner circle (at the time not even the Jedi suspected Palpatine himself).
Part of the purpose of the Seperatist attack on Coruscant and kidnapping of the Chancellor was to divert attention away from this line of investigation.

Presenting this evidence to the Senate along with Anakins confession that Palpatine attempted to turn him to the Dark Side, combined with the footage of the battle between the Jedi masters & the Sith Lord in the Chancellors office might be enough to stay twitchy trigger fingers long enough.
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Post by Shannon »

IIRC the investigation into the true identity of Darth Sidious had led the Jedi to Coruscant through fairly strong evidence (Nute Gunrays walker chair memory cache?), which pointed to one of Palpatines inner circle (at the time not even the Jedi suspected Palpatine himself).
Part of the purpose of the Seperatist attack on Coruscant and kidnapping of the Chancellor was to divert attention away from this line of investigation.
Correct. This is in Labyrinth of Evil.
Presenting this evidence to the Senate along with Anakins confession that Palpatine attempted to turn him to the Dark Side, combined with the footage of the battle between the Jedi masters & the Sith Lord in the Chancellors office might be enough to stay twitchy trigger fingers long enough.


Possibly not. You forget that the ROTS novelisation makes it clear that Palpatine ensured that the only recordings of the fight were auditory, and he made sure that anything beyond the deaths of Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar was not recorded. In Court, he or his supporters could argue that they'd been despatched by their fellow Jedi while defending him.

Anakin as a witness is more problematic, for both sides. His loyalty is suspect. To explain:
1. The Jedi Council may not trust him because of his instability and his link with Palpatine, but he is the only person who can confirm the existence of Palpatine's Dark Side abilities for them. However, Mace Windu, if he's true to his word, should trust him if Anakin let him kill Palpatine.
2. Palpatine's camp could clearly influence him along the lines of 'testify against us, and we won't tell you how to save Padme'. It coud be a bluff, but then so was Palpatine's offer.

As far as the public and the Senate are concerned, Anakin is a hero, not a budding sociopath. Remember, he's The Hero With No Fear, one-half of Kenobi & Skywalker, the guy who crash-landed half a starship and rescued Palpatine from Grievous. If he then turns aound and says yes, Palpatine was a traitor and a Sith Lord, chances are people might believe him. Of course, some will say he is simply a Jedi pawn.

On the legality of the Sith:
"The Jedi are the defenders of the Republic," the lieutenant went on earnestly. "Their ways can seem strange to ordinary citizens, but they're on our side. All they want is peace."
"Reallly?" Des said, glancing at his cards and pushing in his chips. "I thought they wanted to wipe out the Sith."
"The Sith are an illegal organisation," the lieutenant explained. She folded her cards after a moment of careful deliberation. "The Senate passed a bill outlawing them nearly three thousand years ago, shortly after Revan and Malak brought destruction to the entire galaxy."
"I always heard Revan saved the Republic," he said.
The commander jumped back into the conversation. "Revan's story is complicated," he said. "But the fact remains, the Sith and their teachings were banned by the Senate. Their very existence is a violation of Republic law - and with good reason. The Jedi understand the threat the Sith represent. That's why they've joined the fleet. For the good of the galaxy, the Sith must be wiped out once and for all."
(emphasis added)
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This is pretty clear, but then there is the matter of what Palpatine said about 'religious freedom' in the ROTS novelisation. If the Jedi could prove that Palpatine was a Sith Lord and the statutes outlawing the Sith and their teachings remain in force, then they have enough of a case to have the Senate take a closer look at his other dealings. However, if the statues are no longer in force for whatever reason, then the Jedi have a big problem. In fact there is ample evidence to suggest that Vader's identity as a SITH LORD was well known (the Marvel comics series and The Truce at Bakura are two examples) and that this does not seem to have been a legal problem. Perhaps Palaptine 'made it legal?'

However, please note that in the canon movie ROTS, Windu's accusation of Palpatine being a Sith Lord is neither refuted nor defended by Palpatine - he simply accuses the Jedi of treason after an exchange regarding his power over the Senate, draws his lightsabre, and attacks. The legality of their arrest attempt is not otherwise challenged with regard to 'religious freedom'.
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Darth Hoth
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Post by Darth Hoth »

All this was discussed in earlier threads; I believe I linked to one. Anyone who wishes to reopen the topic, read that one and see if your arguments have not already been made.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

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Post by Shannon »

No, I have now read all of Publius' arguments and I agree that the point is moot. Conceded.
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Anakin = Vader

Post by Emperor Overlord »

I've always thought that there really was no distinction between Anakin and Vader. That's how Luke was able to "get through" to him eventually. Vader even hated the name Anakin because he knew who he really was but was in denial. At least that's the way the movies seem to portray it. I mean, when the mask is going on him at the end of Episode 3, I saw the same scared kid, not the fearsome sith lord he had supposedly become. All that "Anakin is dead" nonsense from Yoda and Obi-Wan was just them hatin on him (not actual hate. Jedi are above that. LOL).
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Post by Mayabird »

Shannon wrote: This is pretty clear, but then there is the matter of what Palpatine said about 'religious freedom' in the ROTS novelisation. If the Jedi could prove that Palpatine was a Sith Lord and the statutes outlawing the Sith and their teachings remain in force, then they have enough of a case to have the Senate take a closer look at his other dealings. However, if the statues are no longer in force for whatever reason, then the Jedi have a big problem.
It wouldn't be all that surprising if the statutes had been changed since then. That quote is still over a thousand years old when Palpatine starts doing his thing. At that point, the Sith were long out of the living memory of the galaxy, except maybe whatever species Yoda is from, and there's a lot of time in a thousand years for attitudes to shift and laws to be altered or passed.

It's also possible that Palpatine himself got the 'religious freedom' act passed at some point as chancellor, which would make the line subtly ironic.


EDIT: left out a word there. It made a sentence rather nonsensical.
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