Nucleonic warheads

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-26 06:07pm

Why don't we see more applications of nucleonic technology other than on the Galaxy Gun? It seems they had the technological ability to create nucleonic weapons before the events in Dark Empire:

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At that very moment, young Emperor Palpatine is making an inspection tour of his new Galaxy Gun.

UMAK LETH: "We're relieved you chose to return to us, Emperor."

EMPEROR: "I could not have done otherwise, Leth. Now explain the operation of this new weapon to me."

LETH: "Of course, Your Majesty! As you already know, its purpose is to launch intelligent projectiles into hyperspace... Each projectile can exist at precise coordinates, find its target... and destroy it. Its threat is absolute."

EMPEROR: "Marvelous. It's a wonder we didn't think of it decades ago -- -- my new Galaxy Weapon is sure to inspire obedience. It means the end of the Rebel Alliance! This weapon can destroy a city... a land mass... or even an entire planet anywhere in the galaxy. Everything is falling into place as I have foreseen."
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-Dark Empire II

Darth Phoenix · Post by **Darth Phoenix** » 2003-01-26 06:18pm

Perhaps they didn't thought it was necessary at the time they had the Death star afterall.
Other them that i don't know.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-26 06:50pm

Maybe they forgot

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-26 07:48pm

They didn't need it w/ the Death Star.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-26 09:53pm

Actually, why would they need it at all with DBZ-capable weapons? That makes nukes look like firecrackers and it is more efficient in that missiles would need constant re-supply, while HTLs just drain some power out of the ship reactors.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-26 09:56pm

An ISD can destroy unshielded planets' surfaces in an hour, and it has to travel to it.

A Galaxy Gun projectile can destroy shielded planets instantly, anywhere in the galaxy.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-26 10:17pm

I was thinking about before the Empire came to be. Like why they didn't use them on ships. But then again, you aren't a mind-reader. I was lost in my own mental images and didn't describe them in more detail. lol

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-27 12:27am

I would call World Devastators an example of "nucleonic" technology too.

Excerpt from the CUSWE:

"World Devastator
designed by the scientists at the Maw Installation, the plans for the World Devastator were sent to Grand Moff Tarkin years after his death at Yavin. The plans were intercepted by Umak Leth, who convinced his superiors that the designs were his own. This was easily accomplished, since the existence of the Maw Installation was well-hidden by Tarkin. Leth saw the creation of the World Devastator as his chance to surpass the genius of Bevel Lemelisk. He took the basic idea of a molecular furnace that broke down matter into its basic elements, and expanded on it. "

I interpret this as that molecular furnaces existed already before, but they were now refined into weapons. Same thing with the GG, I suppose.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-27 01:02am

The GG always reminds me of the MD missile in Ender's Game

Anyways, like most things they probably used it in an industrial application and modified the idea for weapons use, like was done with TNT and lately lasers. So using it as a weapon is new. Intersting thing, if you combined it with fusion beam tech, you would get something akin to a Shadow molecular slicer.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-27 01:20am

Ender wrote:The GG always reminds me of the MD missile in Ender's Game

Anyways, like most things they probably used it in an industrial application and modified the idea for weapons use, like was done with TNT and lately lasers. So using it as a weapon is new. Intersting thing, if you combined it with fusion beam tech, you would get something akin to a Shadow molecular slicer.

Nucleonic warheads release energy during the conversion process IIRC Dark Empire 2 correctly (or the EGW&T). They appear to work more like some sort of spontaneous Matter/antimatter conversion on a large scale (at least thats the only process that comes to mind where there would be an energy release.)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-27 01:58am

BTW what do you mean about a Shadow molecular slicer? I dont see how it would be a "fusion beam" or how it woudl duplicate the function of a nucleonic warhead.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-27 04:21pm

The possibility of bad PR? The Galaxy Gun always seemed like the ultimate sniper rifle to me, fitting in perfectly with the Dark Empire's methods.

Deploying something like the Galaxy Gun after the fall of the Republic or during the Galactic Civil War could have been met with a massive loss of trust and a building sense of paranoia from Imperial Citizens for the Empire.

A Death Star is one thing: it's basically an executionor that cuts off your head in the stocks, but a Galaxy Gun is something else: it's the sniper that shoots you in the back of the head from 300 metres while you're taking a leak.

Or maybe it was a costs/needs issue. Back in the Good Old Days, they had Star Destroyers that could run around willy-nilly, BDZing planets like popcorn, and projects like the Galaxy Gun and World Devestators might have been considered too cost prohibitive for their rolls.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-27 04:43pm

Or they just were preocuppied w/ the Death Star and other Imperial business to get down to that quite yet.

It did take them around 18 years after the end of the Clone Wars to build the DS.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-27 10:49pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:BTW what do you mean about a Shadow molecular slicer? I dont see how it would be a "fusion beam" or how it woudl duplicate the function of a nucleonic warhead.

Fusion beam cannon is a thermonuclear blast contained and channeled through a magnetic field. If you adapted it so you could set off a nucleonic warhead, and direct it, you would have a beam that would break things apart on the atomic level without having to apply melting heat, latent heat, vaporization energy and all that. From what I have been able to piece together, the Shadow slicer is suppossed to work like that. If it says different in b5 wars, please tell me.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-28 02:50am

Ender wrote:Fusion beam cannon is a thermonuclear blast contained and channeled through a magnetic field. If you adapted it so you could set off a nucleonic warhead, and direct it, you would have a beam that would break things apart on the atomic level without having to apply melting heat, latent heat, vaporization energy and all that.

Err.. that sounds like a phaser.

Seriously though, I'm not even sure the nucleonic reactions could be converted to a beam weapon or not. The Nucleonic/particle disintegrator warhead seems to be a device that only operates on matter it comes into contact with and can be scaled to the target size. Once matter contacts the disintegrater warhead, it disintegrates rather energetically and spectacularly (some sort of matter/energy conversion process, it would seem.) It doesnt seem to employ any shortcuts to do it either.

Otherwise, what you are proposing would probably be duplicable with an antimatter weapon - whicha re a distinct class in B5 Wars.

From what I have been able to piece together, the Shadow slicer is suppossed to work like that. If it says different in b5 wars, please tell me.

We dont' quite know how they work - no specific written information was ever given as to how molecualr weapons worked (its largely implied evidence from other weapons.) - However they do in fact seem to employ the input of energy (if they didn't, they'd just be a cheap knockoff of a phaser - which we have no reason to assume)

The only molecular weapon to my memory which does any sort of disintegration effects is the molecular disruptor - and its disruption ability operates on the atomic level, does not totally disintegrate the target area, operates randomly, and only degrades the effectiveness of the hull at withstanding fire to a slight degree. And on top of that, its a very short ranged weapon.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-28 02:54am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Err.. that sounds like a phaser.

Not really, the phaser turns things into non-interactive energies, maybe neutrinos, a nucleonic warhead turns thing into energy, like with a MA/AM reaction, hence why the Eclipse was destroyed by Byss exploding, because the planet going up by being turned into energy would be around 1e42 joules or something.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-29 02:06am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Err.. that sounds like a phaser.
Not really, the phaser turns things into non-interactive energies, maybe neutrinos, a nucleonic warhead turns thing into energy, like with a MA/AM reaction, hence why the Eclipse was destroyed by Byss exploding, because the planet going up by being turned into energy would be around 1e42 joules or something.

I was talking about Ender's proposed analogy to the molecular slicer.

And yes, the Nucleonic warhead still sounds like a phaser (or rather, what Trekkies WISH a phaser was.)

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-01-29 04:09am

The most clear description of the effects of the Galaxy Gun's particle disintegrator warheads is contained in Dark Empire II, in which Da Soocha V, or Pinnacle Base, is struck by one such missile:

But this is no ordinary missile!

Fired from the Emperor's new Galaxy Gun, this weapon carries a particle disintegrator that initiates a massive nucleonic chain reaction!

The reaction builds quickly to catastrophic levels, until every molecule of the moon's rocky core bursts like a miniature exploding sun!

Pinnacle Moon is no more.

The visual effect is quite striking (no pun intended). Immediately upon impact, a large part of the planetary mass is seen to be shattered, and the area around the disruption is discoloured and blackened. In the very next scene, an enormous portion of the moon's mass has been destroyed; the moon literally looks like a crescent. Almost the entire mass is either non-existent or blackened, giving the visual impression of a badly mangled piece of charcoal.

Pinnacle Moon is said (p. 84) to have "light" gravity in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, but it also states that the moon has a "Type I (breathable)" atmosphere, giving a rough indication as to the amount of mass involved.

The text describes only the destruction of the "rocky core", but the visual effect is quite clear: The entire mass of the moon was disrupted, with unsettling rapidity. Although the medium is unable to give any clear indication as to the time frame involved, a rought idea can be gained from the fact that the entire destruction of the moon transpired whilst Master Skywalker's Jedi Explorer was on its approach to the planet after having exited hyperspace. In any event, the chain reaction could not have taken more than a few moments at most.

One would imagine that the visual effect of watching the destruction of a planetary body in such a fashion would be quite traumatic, as one could basically watch the entire planetary mass be consumed, almost in the same way that a sheet of paper is quickly immolated when a corner is set afire.

The most intriguing thing about the Galaxy Gun is the Galactic Emperor's almost casual remark that the truly remarkable thing about the weapon is that someone didn't think of it "decades ago". Essentially, the only reason that the Empire did not use technology based on this effect, even in smaller, less destructive warheads, is quite simply that the idea had not occurred to any one.

It is not a question of technology in this case. It is simply a question of "Well, why didn't I think of that?"

Given that the technology is clearly not new, one must indeed wonder at why nucleonic weapons have not appeared since the Emperor's death and the destruction of Byss. Is it possible that no one knew what technology the Empire used?

Just before impact, Master Skywalker comments (hilariously) "One missile can't do a lot of damage". Other than the facts that the Galaxy Gun fires missiles, and the missiles can completely destroy their targets, how much information does the New Republic actually have on the Galaxy Gun? Does anyone still living actually know that the Galaxy Gun used a particle disintegrator to initiate a nucleonic chain reaction?

Publius

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-29 05:02pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Err.. that sounds like a phaser.
Not really, the phaser turns things into non-interactive energies, maybe neutrinos, a nucleonic warhead turns thing into energy, like with a MA/AM reaction, hence why the Eclipse was destroyed by Byss exploding, because the planet going up by being turned into energy would be around 1e42 joules or something.

Both illustrations of the destruction of Byss do not show a total conversion of planetary mass into energy. Personally I feel that's a tad too uber. Rather, there was a massive burst of energy and then the planet shattered and shrapnel tore apart the fleet and shipyards in relatively low orbit around Byss. However, the missile WAS fired haphazardly, and may have not been fully-powered.

Illustrations of the destruction of the Pinnicle Moon appear far more violent and powerful. Based on the massive vaporization/incineration of much of the planet's mass, I believe that the Pinnicle Moon should be treated as a good example.

However, they never specified which type of planet a Galaxy Gun projectile could annhiliate; it is quite possible a Galaxy Gun projectile could destroy a gas giant.

If could destroy a gas giant, and thus maintain is nucleonic chain-reaction in such a planet's gaseous layers, could it not also do so in at least a small star?

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-01-29 07:16pm

I remember the amout of damage that the Galaxy Gun device does is preset before launch. So maybe they estimated the mass of the planet incorrectly and it was only partially destroyed because it was set to destroy less than the planet's mass.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-30 01:42am

Its possible Nucleonic warheads have trouble penetrating shields, since they rely on some form of "matter/energy" conversion process to achieve their effects. They may not be practical on small-scale applications (or the shield-penetrating mechanisms may be too complex to use on small targets)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-30 02:16am

The Galaxy Gun blew up anything between capital ships and whole planets.

We saw it nuke a fair-sized troopship.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-01-30 02:39am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Its possible Nucleonic warheads have trouble penetrating shields, since they rely on some form of "matter/energy" conversion process to achieve their effects. They may not be practical on small-scale applications (or the shield-penetrating mechanisms may be too complex to use on small targets)

It seems somewhat unlikely. In Empire's End #1, the troopship Pelagia -- which seems to actually be designed to land on a planet -- was effortlessly destroyed by a Galaxy Gun missile. An X-wing pilot remarks just beforehand that the missile's shields are impervious, and that he hopes the Pelagia's shields are as potent.

Interestingly, in addition to carrying one hundred thousands of Alliance soldiers, the Pelagia was also shown to be transporting a number of tanks -- not hovertanks or walkers, but actual treaded, turreted tanks.

Publius

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-30 02:44am

It appears that the missile itself stores energy inside it gained from the gun which fires it into hyperspace. This energy drives the defensive turbolasers, the high-intensity shields, and apparently punch through planetary shields.