Yoda's Evolution as a Character and the Prophecy.

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Re: Yoda's Evolution as a Character and the Prophecy.

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Havok wrote: Again, the movie brain bug IMO. The movie shows one special set of twins born from Vader, who's wife we know not to be FS. In fact, the movies show that being FS is random and not genetic, otherwise Shmi should have been a FS. (Yeah yeah, Will of the Force... I know.)
Where is the evidence that Shmi isn't strong with the force, or a latent Force sensitive? I'm not going to suggest that she had any abilities or even the potential to become a Jedi, but you can't say with any certainty what her strength with the Force might have been.

[/quote]
And the Jedi temple would be packed with Jedi children that were born from Jedi parents... oh wait.
Assuming that Jedi will automatically have FS kids is quite a leap.[/quote]

Assuming that they will automatically have FS kids is a leap, but given the prevalence of bloodlines in the EU with multiple generations of sensitives I don't think its a stretch to think that jedi offspring will likely have some degree of sensitivity.

Yoda has a quote in RoTJ "Luke, the Force runs strong in your family." Which implies that Luke's blood relations will be genetically predisposed towards force sensitivity. There hasn't been one descendant of Anakin Skywalker that hasn't developed significant Force ability.
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Re: Yoda's Evolution as a Character and the Prophecy.

Post by Havok »

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Havok wrote: Again, the movie brain bug IMO. The movie shows one special set of twins born from Vader, who's wife we know not to be FS. In fact, the movies show that being FS is random and not genetic, otherwise Shmi should have been a FS. (Yeah yeah, Will of the Force... I know.)
Where is the evidence that Shmi isn't strong with the force, or a latent Force sensitive? I'm not going to suggest that she had any abilities or even the potential to become a Jedi, but you can't say with any certainty what her strength with the Force might have been.
If you are not suggesting that she had any ability or potential, then you are saying pretty certainly that she had little or no 'strength with the Force' since that is exactly how we judge those things. Shmi was not ignorant to what a Jedi was or the Force, she would know if she had the same gifts that Anakin had.
And the Jedi temple would be packed with Jedi children that were born from Jedi parents... oh wait.
Assuming that Jedi will automatically have FS kids is quite a leap.
Assuming that they will automatically have FS kids is a leap, but given the prevalence of bloodlines in the EU with multiple generations of sensitives I don't think its a stretch to think that jedi offspring will likely have some degree of sensitivity.
Which does nothing to dispute my point that Jedi parents=Jedi kids is just a brain bug from the movie latched onto by fanboys and writers alike in the EU.
Yoda has a quote in RoTJ "Luke, the Force runs strong in your family." Which implies that Luke's blood relations will be genetically predisposed towards force sensitivity. There hasn't been one descendant of Anakin Skywalker that hasn't developed significant Force ability.
It does not. It just means that Luke and his sister shared their father's power, (his 'family') and at the same level. It doesn't mean that he can repopulate the galaxy with Jedi through his Force powered jizz. And again, that just goes towards the brain bug theory that no Skywalkers have come along that are not FS.
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Re: Yoda's Evolution as a Character and the Prophecy.

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Havok wrote: If you are not suggesting that she had any ability or potential, then you are saying pretty certainly that she had little or no 'strength with the Force' since that is exactly how we judge those things.
No, what i'm suggesting is that her level of sensitivity, while not that of a Jedi or aspiring Jedi, could be above average.
Shmi was not ignorant to what a Jedi was or the Force, she would know if she had the same gifts that Anakin had.[/quoe]

And how would she without any sort of formal training?
Which does nothing to dispute my point that Jedi parents=Jedi kids is just a brain bug from the movie latched onto by fanboys and writers alike in the EU.
If a child shares a trait with his or her parent, it is reasonable to guess that genetics are playing a role in that. If I see a parent and child who look very much alike I don't think it's a coincidence, why should a fairly distinc trait like Force sensitivity be any different. Maybe it would be a brain bug if Leia wasn't sensitive, but since she shared that same trait Luke did, and it is implied that it was inherited from their father, I don't see how it can be considered a "brain bug".
It does not. It just means that Luke and his sister shared their father's power, (his 'family') and at the same level. It doesn't mean that he can repopulate the galaxy with Jedi through his Force powered jizz.
Obi Wan wrote:"The Emperor knew, as I did, that, if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him."
Did they just happen to know in advance that Anakin's gifts would be passing on to any of his kids by some random chance/will of the Force? It is more reasonable to conclude that Obi Wan and the Emperor knew Anakin's kids could inherit his power as they could with other genetic traits, and that this was a possibility.
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Re: Yoda's Evolution as a Character and the Prophecy.

Post by Havok »

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Havok wrote: If you are not suggesting that she had any ability or potential, then you are saying pretty certainly that she had little or no 'strength with the Force' since that is exactly how we judge those things.
No, what i'm suggesting is that her level of sensitivity, while not that of a Jedi or aspiring Jedi, could be above average.
As far as we know, above average is what the Jedi are and the rest of the galaxy isn't.
Shmi was not ignorant to what a Jedi was or the Force, she would know if she had the same gifts that Anakin had.
And how would she without any sort of formal training?
And what formal training did Anakin have? She was able to recognize it in him without it. She knows he has precog of some sort.
Which does nothing to dispute my point that Jedi parents=Jedi kids is just a brain bug from the movie latched onto by fanboys and writers alike in the EU.
If a child shares a trait with his or her parent, it is reasonable to guess that genetics are playing a role in that. If I see a parent and child who look very much alike I don't think it's a coincidence, why should a fairly distinc trait like Force sensitivity be any different. Maybe it would be a brain bug if Leia wasn't sensitive, but since she shared that same trait Luke did, and it is implied that it was inherited from their father, I don't see how it can be considered a "brain bug".
It is a brain bug because it is a one time occurrence in the movie in which we draw everything else from. In the prequels we see no evidence of genetic passing down of the Force outside of Anakin. Shmi was not as far as we know FS, and neither was Padme. The fact that the only Jedi that we know of to have offspring that are FS and equally, if not more powerful than their parent, is a prophesied 'Chosen One' of an apparent fatherless birth, which may have been the will of the Force, or a creation of one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, and that has a midicount so high it is of charts that have been around for thousands of years, should indicate pretty clearly that this is a fairly unique situation and can not be taken as the norm.

Also the fact that the Jedi Temple is supposedly full of children that had been 'identified' early in life in the more civilized parts of the Republic, leads to the idea that FS is random and is seen through either early age acts such as Shmi saw in Anakin or some form of standardized blood tests in infancy. If people knew it was just a genetic trait, they wouldn't have to go through that.

I mean seriously, do you think the Jedi want to police an entire galaxy with only 10,000 people? It is obviously just a fairly rare and random occurrence.
It does not. It just means that Luke and his sister shared their father's power, (his 'family') and at the same level. It doesn't mean that he can repopulate the galaxy with Jedi through his Force powered jizz.
Obi Wan wrote:"The Emperor knew, as I did, that, if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him."
Did they just happen to know in advance that Anakin's gifts would be passing on to any of his kids by some random chance/will of the Force? It is more reasonable to conclude that Obi Wan and the Emperor knew Anakin's kids could inherit his power as they could with other genetic traits, and that this was a possibility.
You are assuming that the 'threat'='OMG SUPER POWERFUL JEDI!!' When what we saw had little to do with Luke's power, but with the fact that he, along with Leia, represented the last pieces of Anakin Skywalker and the last thing good he ever did. It was Luke's pleas as a son to his father that finally tipped the balance. Not his abilities in the Force.

And why the fuck are your quote tags so damned retarded dude? :P
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Re: Yoda's Evolution as a Character and the Prophecy.

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Havok wrote: As far as we know, above average is what the Jedi are and the rest of the galaxy isn't.
As far as we know, the level of sensitivty it takes to be a Jedi is well beyond that of above average sensitivity. I would think it more reasonable to expect a Jedi's level of sensitivity to be well beyond that of the average.
And what formal training did Anakin have? She was able to recognize it in him without it. She knows he has precog of some sort.
Anakin as a kid is the only human who can podrace, doesn't take much for anyone to be able to tell he is special just based on that fact alone.
It is a brain bug because it is a one time occurrence in the movie in which we draw everything else from.
Certain quotes in the movies back this up, and it isn't an irrational assumption to believe that a father's traits could be passed to his offspring.
In the prequels we see no evidence of genetic passing down of the Force outside of Anakin.
Stass Allie and Adi Gallia, from the prequels, are cousins and both Jedi, which indicates a connection between Force Sensitivity and genetics. Also, if you're including the prequels in this argument, then I would remind you of the end of Episode III...

YODA: Strong the Force runs, in the Skywalker line. Hope, we can . . . Done, it is. Until the time is right, disappear we will.

Per the bolded portion, from the way Yoda says this, does this not imply that Anakin's bloodline is in fact Force Sensitive? He didn't say that just the Kids were strong but rather the entire line. Why would Yoda say this if Force sensitivity was in no way connected to genetics?
Shmi was not as far as we know FS, and neither was Padme. The fact that the only Jedi that we know of to have offspring that are FS and equally, if not more powerful than their parent, is a prophesied 'Chosen One' of an apparent fatherless birth, which may have been the will of the Force, or a creation of one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, and that has a midicount so high it is of charts that have been around for thousands of years, should indicate pretty clearly that this is a fairly unique situation and can not be taken as the norm.
And how does this make a genetic connection with Force Sensitivity so unreasonable? Anakin's power was inherited by both of his children as are traits such as eye color andhair, just because Force sensitivity such as Anakin's is rare does nothing to discourage the reasonability of that conclusion.
Also the fact that the Jedi Temple is supposedly full of children that had been 'identified' early in life in the more civilized parts of the Republic, leads to the idea that FS is random and is seen through either early age acts such as Shmi saw in Anakin or some form of standardized blood tests in infancy. If people knew it was just a genetic trait, they wouldn't have to go through that.
Or it lends to the idea that sufficient Force Sensitivity to become a Jedi is a very rare trait, since the known Force-Sensitive population of the galaxy (the Jedi Order) isn't breeding at this time we cannot compare the number of force sensitives born to Jedi Parents versus those of the general population. The Skywalkers and the Gallia/Allie family are the only two examples in the six films of Jedi families, and the Skywalker line is the only one that clearly represents multiple generations.
I mean seriously, do you think the Jedi want to police an entire galaxy with only 10,000 people? It is obviously just a fairly rare and random occurrence.
I don't believe that the Jedi were in the business of breeding more Jedi with the purpose of increasing their numbers.
You are assuming that the 'threat'='OMG SUPER POWERFUL JEDI!!' When what we saw had little to do with Luke's power, but with the fact that he, along with Leia, represented the last pieces of Anakin Skywalker and the last thing good he ever did. It was Luke's pleas as a son to his father that finally tipped the balance. Not his abilities in the Force.
From RoTS...

OBI-WAN: I will take the child and watch over him. Master Yoda, do you think Anakin's twins will be able to defeat Darth Sidious?

Obi Wan sure seems to think that the threat will come from Luke and/or Leia's own abilities. He doesn't say "Yoda, do you think the sight of Luke will ever convince Anakin to turn back to the light?" Obi Wan does not believe that Anakin is even redeemable. When Luke says that he won't kill Vader, Obi Wan replies "Then the Emperor has already won."
And why the fuck are your quote tags so damned retarded dude? :P
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