CIS Battle Droid AI

[Srelex]

That, and as a rule clones of Force-users usually turn out to be rather unstable, to my knowledge.

[Jim Raynor]

If you're against slavery AND against a military (with associated industrial complex) vamping your tax base for essentially forever while creating the means for unwarranted and dangerous 'adventurism'; the clones represent a double whammy of dumb and dangerousness.

Because obediant clones that love to fight, and are formed into a secret prepackaged army, is the same as pushing legislation through the worthless Republic Senate.

The people you clone are the ones you cannot afford to do without. The ones who are going to change society because they are more useful in a long term sense and/or have higher payout during the limited years for which _genius_ performance (seldom productive after 30) can occur.

What the fuck? You can create countless billions of clones from just one or a few people.

Even as elite conventional infantry 3 million clones with a new division every six months or so (Spaarti cylinders) doesn't begin to compare to the TRILLIONS of ready made adults whom you could slam dunk through a hurry up BIT process.

First of all, everyone already agrees that "3 million" or whatever number the EU uses is fucking retarded. Second of all, having a pre-formed army of elite and totally obediant troops at the very start of a conflict is not a bad thing.

It is until you can prove the midichlorians which represent Force aptitude are not generated by or attracted to specific cellular processes based on individual genetic alleles or recombinant/mutative variations of same.

So you're asking me to prove a negative. One that has not been supported by canon or EU sources at that.

The fact that Dooku is supposed to be a Sith yet doesn't rat his master out while obviously playing a hand rigged against him

You don't know Dooku's motivation. He may simply be out to destroy the Republic and the Jedi. He was given half the galaxy, and he could very well be plotting to destroy Palpatine himself.

A squad of Talon SWORDS with a mix of M240s and the 40mm grenade launcher mounted would utterly destroy a similar number of clones on level terrain and would not take half as long or cost half as much to train operators for.

Why "level terrain?" Obviously infantry is NOT just for use on level terrain. If you're so confident that present-day Talons are so badass, then why do you need to create an ideal situation for them? Fact is they're not so badass. They're fucking short, which is a disadvantage when it comes to shooting over just about anything. A quick internet search says their top speed (which I assume to be on level terrain) is 6 feet per second...a whopping 4 mph. I can walk almost as fast as these things can run.

And those operators, who will stay on a computer within a kilometer, are another vulnerability that can be attacked.

The XM1219 MULE autonomous combat vehicle could up these numbers (3-4:1) due to higher caliber and/or guided weapons systems offering massive standoff leveraging and considerably more armor and mobility to sustain a maneuver battle with as well.

If you're going to resort to a robotic VEHICLE, then the clones should get vehicle support as well. Not that SW blasters would have a problem blowing one of these things the hell away.

The reason we don't have robots in active field testing (SWORDS went to Iraq fully vetted but was vetoed by the General Petraeus as I recall) is the very reason that proves they are the right solution: they work. Better than any human.

And that fact becomes a terrible vulnerability to be suppressed at all costs by not producing reports that detail it's truth. The military having finally learned that Infosec is only as good as you have nothing and no one to blab with.

So the military doesn't use its perfect badass little robots because of "Infosec," because it's too afraid of the technology that it doesn't want people so much as knowing how powerful it is. You're full of shit. If the technology isn't used then it's useless. The US Military exploits a shitload of technology, including unmanned weapons platforms.

And the reason for all this is that it is likely that robots, on automatic patrol as well as in roll-off direct soldier support from a squad vehicle, would do so well that they would result in an instant, negative, drawdown effect on the particularly wasteful, high man-rating dense, ground combat MOS'.

'Since nobody wants to see our heroes hurt'. And killers get killed doing their job.

Generals keep billets manned because, thanks to their -separate- chain of command from the government which only nominally orders their deployment, it takes an officer to make a soldier do anything. Literally, they will not take orders directly from a civilian.

A private with about 2 weeks of training can make a robot do things a General with a human platoon at his command could not match. And if the robot go boom, it can be rebuilt.

If a private can do it without direct oversight, you are one step away from having a civilian authority take direct battlefield command of mercenary PMCs whose asset survival in on a contractual expenditure basis and whose national loyalty 'doesn't matter' and thus can be used aggressively to win rather than lose low intensity conflicts being fought to an attrition standstill, by inches.

Nice conspiracy theory. A general would not be micromanaging a platoon. You provide no reason why the private with a joystick can't be supervised. The way the military is already doing all the time, in reality.

Just stop already. You're embarrassing yourself.

[Professor Dire]

You don't know Dooku's motivation. He may simply be out to destroy the Republic and the Jedi. He was given half the galaxy, and he could very well be plotting to destroy Palpatine himself.

This almost certain due to the "Rule of Two" the Sith of the time followed.

Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."
―Darth Bane

[Joe Momma]

Even as elite conventional infantry 3 million clones with a new division every six months or so (Spaarti cylinders) doesn't begin to compare to the TRILLIONS of ready made adults whom you could slam dunk through a hurry up BIT process.

First of all, everyone already agrees that "3 million" or whatever number the EU uses is fucking retarded. Second of all, having a pre-formed army of elite and totally obediant troops at the very start of a conflict is not a bad thing.

These aren't mutually exclusive, either. IIRC, in Shatterpoint it was noted that many of the early Clone Troopers were used as instructors for training regional militias to serve as Republic military forces.

[Adam Reynolds]

These aren't mutually exclusive, either. IIRC, in Shatterpoint it was noted that many of the early Clone Troopers were used as instructors for training regional militias to serve as Republic military forces.

Unfortunately this source also implies that the 1.2 million figure refers to individual men.

[Joe Momma]

These aren't mutually exclusive, either. IIRC, in Shatterpoint it was noted that many of the early Clone Troopers were used as instructors for training regional militias to serve as Republic military forces.

Unfortunately this source also implies that the 1.2 million figure refers to individual men.

The two are actually connected, I think. Stover suggested in a later Q&A that he used said figure to refer to individuals because that was the canon policy at the time, but it was noted in the book how ridiculously minimalistic it was (namely that 1.2 million men worked out to little more than a single trooper per civilized world). I'm guessing the instructor role was a rationale on Stover's part for such a low number of initial troops still being somewhat useful, i.e. they were helping to get other military resources up to speed.

It's still a reasonable supposition even if one ignores the minimalistic numbers. RL special forces troops perform that same duty in various circumstances, so it's not much of a stretch to imagine that some Republic Commando or ARC Troopers would be tasked with the same thing. It might even be more likely with higher numbers as there would be more troops to spare for such support roles.

[LopEaredGaloot]

JR,

Because obediant clones that love to fight, and are formed into a

secret prepackaged army, is the same as pushing legislation through the

worthless Republic Senate.

None of which changes the fact that Clones would be useless against

droids because they would not be able to cover 50 million worlds at

equivalent production rates and _in a realistic setting_ could not

match the combat performance of droids either.

"They will do their job." No, no they won't.

If they are useless then why expend money to create them that way? Why not clone Jedi who have gifts of agility and telekinesis and precognition and let the Jedi Clones use blasters and armor as adjunctive 'militarizing the keepers of the peace'?

Because that would make too much sense of course.

The Republic cannot legally use Clones without violating it's own

antislavery policy. It cannot usefully employ so few, inept, Clones

against so many, superior, battledroids.

Which is why I said, it makes no sense to invest so much money in a ten year project to raise an Corps level group of 'super soldiers' who are not as good as the best option you have (if you are desperate enough to break your own laws, at least do it intelligently.).

Again, ground combatants die for nearly random reasons because they are

exposed to so many different threats. Thus the inane idea that you

would invest GE into making them superior is ludicrous. You clone

people who are going to live long enough to make the payoff worthwhile.
Engineers, physicists, doctors, artists, philosophers.

You conscript idiots in numbers to swamp the enemy so that the attack

comes on such a broad front that it cannot be defended against with

even cheap (mines etc.) desultory/ambush attrition systems before you are through the defensive belt and in motion in their rear areas. U.S. vs. European professional army policies in WWII make clear the difference in effectiveness.

We took more losses but we did it over a shorter period of fighting and so, overall, our losses were lower than those of nations who had been fighting ineffectually, for years.

Such a half-ass option is not even available to the Republic because they have swatted an elephant with a rolled up newspaper and the elephant has a quintillion friends as well.

What the fuck? You can create countless billions of clones from just

one or a few people.

Not as fast as you can conscript those who are already adults and

already at risk to an invasion by droids in the quintillions. And

should you, somehow, manage to create those 'billions' from just one

planet's resources, you must still redirect massive amounts of

resources to their care and feeding both during the war and after.

50 million worlds times 2 billion lives per planet is 100 quadrillion

"Here, point this end towards the enemy and squeeze this." instant

soldiers.

Which you are gonna need right quick like since the Republic essentially started the war illegally by trying to rescue a spy and two murderers who were being executed according to the legal custom of the planet they were on.

Dramatically it's also stupid.

The fact that these Clones, created by a Jedi are NOT themselves Force Adepts should lead to instant suspicion that they are the least not the best possible fighting force, specifically designed to fight to a failure level against the overwhelming tide of enemy.


The fact that Jango is seen in the company of Dooku as Clone Source and

Droid Commander should also clue in anyone that this is a conspiracy.


And the certainty that this conspiracy began BEFORE the war was even a

dot on the horizon should be the final nail in the coffin on using these ineffectual and suspect sourced Clones.

Because it's not Clones or Nothing. It's Clones or something Better.

Normal Humans.

First of all, everyone already agrees that "3 million" or whatever

number the EU uses is fucking retarded. Second of all, having a

pre-formed army of elite and totally obediant troops at the very start

of a conflict is not a bad thing.

Now who's cherry picking among facts he doesn't like?

200,000 units = 200,000 men because units are how a commercial salesmen deals in mass merchandising. And it was 3 million clones because that is the Lucas acknowledged canon number.

Don't bother me with Traviss bashing. Deal with the sheer stupidity of

assuming that 3 million super soldiers are going to deal with

quintillions of droids better than an ordinary Joe with his 100

quadrillion fellows.

It is this simple fact which, as much as anything, makes 'The Clone

Wars' and thus the PT a total farce.

So you're asking me to prove a negative. One that has not been

supported by canon or EU sources at that.

It's not my fault that you foolishly didn't consider how to create a

logical defense based upon denying the presence of biologic organisms in a biologic being but not in ALL biologic beings.

You simply, arbitrarily, stated that it wasn't genetic.

If it were environmental, there would be injections to make normal humans into Adepts.

If it weren't genetic, then it would not pass down through multiple generations in one family. But not others.

If a non Adept has an Adept child, that doesn't mean it's not gentic,

it means you lack a basic Mendellian awareness of dominant/recessive

heritability fractions.

If 'proving a negative' means you overstepped the boundaries of common

knowledge then hell yes, I am asking you to prove it.

Don't whine at me when you cannot reinforce the certainty of your

prior assertion.

You don't know Dooku's motivation. He may simply be out to destroy the

Republic and the Jedi. He was given half the galaxy, and he could very

well be plotting to destroy Palpatine himself.

If he wants Palpatine dead, then he need only stick his saber in him

when they are close enough to make a fight of it. Of all the Jedi,

Dooku, with his willingness to use offensive electrical attacks is the

one I would pick to fight Sidious to a victory. He certainly makes Anakin look like a freakin' pumpkin.

OTOH, he doesn't have to fight Sidious to destroy the Republic. He

just has to rat him out and let the internal conflicts between Jedi,

Sith and Senate do the job for him. Certainly the Jedi are not

competent if they let that kind of a threat get that close and those among the Senate who would support Sidious anyway (because he is good for their business) vs. those who would abstain, withdraw or hold both parties at fault would make a real mess of the political situation.

At the same time, improving the known flaws in his battle droids so

that they become the overwhelming killers their numbers should dictate

them to be, does NOT require Dooku to use them aggressively to destroy the market base his clients depend on to sell their wares/services to.

It's not even as if Dooku has a choice, because even if he purposefully

ignores their weaknesses, he is not the only one with a stake in the

war's outcome and those in the techno union at least will recognize the

obvious flaws in their creations.

Again, the PT falls down on the basis of assuming that nobody would

notice the obvious as much as have the ability to do anything about it.

And that is why Lucas sucks as a creative story teller. He is as arbitrary in his plot arcs as a hammer to the forehead.

Why "level terrain?" Obviously infantry is NOT just for use on level

terrain.

Because only monkeys and criminals run up?

The value of a highpoint is not the terrain vantage it provides but the easy manner in which it allows air and artillery to isolate targets for prosecution while they try to play king of the hill.

If you're so confident that present-day Talons are so badass, then why

do you need to create an ideal situation for them?

Because they can fire over terrain folds with sufficient onboard ammo

to defeat defiladed and/or reverse slope targets? Because, if the

enemy is 2km away, sitting on a ridgeline in the 'hills' of AfG, I am

not going to be able to get at him with infantry, or infantry portable weapons and will require airpower or a lofting round anyway?

No, what was it... OH YEAH!

Clones advance in Napoleonic line fashion across open ground against droids that have no fear of death! Yeah, that was what it was. When facing morons, get low and shoot more effectively than they do.

Fact is they're not so badass. They're fucking short, which is a

disadvantage when it comes to shooting over just about anything.

Interesting thing about a low target profile. It forces the other guy

to raise his head up to shoot YOU too.

Line of sight. It's a bitch.

Until someone leaves a sodacan on a sidewalk or melts a hole in the pavement with a burning tire and then drops a couple mortar shells into it with a long wire blasting cap and car battery on the other end.

But of course 'that's cheating'.

A quick internet search says their top speed (which I assume to be on

level terrain) is 6 feet per second...a whopping 4 mph. I can walk

almost as fast as these things can run.

Combat is actually conducted at walking pace most of the time. Soldiers who aren't gyro stabilized can't shoot worth a damn at running speeds. Which is to say anything that isn't mechanical.

Your research should also be a function of making haste a little more slowly.

>
Fast -- TALON is the fastest robot on the market today easily keeping pace with a running soldier.
>

http://foster-miller.qinetiq-na.com/lemming.htm

>
The robots are virtually silent and can travel at the pace of a running soldier...
>

(Time Index 1:35)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV3UJ91zxhM

OTOH, if you don't like the SWORDS, go to a MAARS. Specifically designed to be faster.

And those operators, who will stay on a computer within a kilometer,

are another vulnerability that can be attacked.

Teleline operated? Maybe. Standing behind a building or an AFV kinda helps here. FIBUA in general is pretty damn close in with engagement ranges on the order of 35-85m.

OTOH, the only limit on RF operations is the size of the command antenna group and vs. the size of the video pipe on the feedback. More than this I will not say but SWORDS has been tested using air LINK from a helicopter well over 4km away.

If you're going to resort to a robotic VEHICLE, then the clones

should get vehicle support as well. Not that SW blasters would have a

problem blowing one of these things the hell away.

Why? Clones have walked to wherever they are going in the SW films.

A 20km deep battlefield on Geonosis and rather than battle taxi under armor to key points before debussing, or VE from a LAAT and force the enemy to defend several attack axes and strongpoints of at once, these dumb fools RUN across the landscape, facing droid threats with thicker armor and stabilized fire on the move.

When the GAR do go mech, it's almost always in oversized rhinoceros beetle quad walkers that are too slow to be believable, even as WWI platforms.

Infantry on Infantry, a SWORDS will put a stream of bullets through the visor slit of a clone at 500m. A Clone will not even SEE the robot at that distance.

The SWORDS partner will then fire off a volley of 40mm grenades and the worthless 'elite' super soldiers will be blown apart because they don't stagger their lines, they have no concept of bounding advance and their own heavy fire support is entirely pathetic.

So the military doesn't use its perfect badass little robots because of

"Infosec," because it's too afraid of the technology that it doesn't

want people so much as knowing how powerful it is. You're full of

shit. If the technology isn't used then it's useless. The US Military

exploits a shitload of technology, including unmanned weapons

platforms.

And your response is exactly why this kind of defeatist retardation of the advance of military science to hardly more than WWII levels works. The only reason I laugh is that I know, if you're a citizen, you have to pay for the scam with about 7X as much tax dollar per warfighter as you should.

Having unmanned weapons platforms that you can effectively deny the effectiveness of ('weaponized' UUV have been around in naval mine clearance for decades) and self-smear via enemy propaganda (Predators blowing up 'civilian' dinner party targets in Pakistan) is not the same as admitting that man has no place on the modern battlefield and thus beginning a process of shrinking our most expensive, ground force, TOEs because we know that there are better, cheaper, more force structure retainable, alternatives.

Or hey, here's a thought, how about simply admitting we no longer fight to gain what an enemy loses to us and thus cannot afford war at all?

Idiots and their money, soon are parted...

Nice conspiracy theory. A general would not be micromanaging a

platoon. You provide no reason why the private with a joystick can't

be supervised. The way the military is already doing all the time, in

reality.

The Chain Of Command is based on exploiting the inequity of firepower organic to individual units and thus creating more specialist forces than one local commander can adequately control.

The infantry squad or section is the smallest of those force constructs, utterly unable to support itself in the face of heavy combined arms ambushes, never mind indirect fire.

Yet a tank is perversely 'too valuable' to go door to door with an infantry squad, nor would they want it to because it's an explosive fires magnet.

So, 'when called', it stands off anywhere from 100 to 1,000m and only shoots after someone in the infantry has already taken fire, say from a house that is about to be collapsed by 120mm HEAT.

OTOH, if the infantry have tank like firepower with them, as with an AT-4 dual mount on a SWORDS, they don't need to wait for that armor to be tasked, dispatched, make travel time and coordinate linkup with them. What's more, because it's 'just a robot' it can move -ahead of- the infantry so when the threat sees the tank drive up and displaces one block over, the robot can mow them down crossing the street.

And hey, no more advancing by inches.

Why have such an ineffectual system? Because if you have a lieutenant in the tank and a sergeant and a lieutenant in the walking patrol and a captain has to 'oversee' them from a Humvee outside the town or vil and someone like a Major or Colonel has to supply the Captain with replacements for the men he's killed and gas and food and oh yeah, orders for the next town needing 'pacification', the list of discrete units in the tooth:tail chain just keeps getting long and broader.

Until you reach the general who coordinates everything.

But if you properly merge the fires units, using contempt of engagement to avoid human exposure to battlefield threats and easily replaceable robots to lug more firepower than a man can, the number of supporting enabler units goes down and with it the CS/CSS elements necessary to keep them all going. And the officer count to command them all.

And suddenly it's not a worthless, useless, army _union_, it's a business. Where the fewer human effectors on your payday and insurance rolls, the better.

And no General will ever let that happen because they are more interested in sustaining their own existence than they are in supplying the most efficient and lowest costing force structure for this nation.

All of which would be fine if they actually won tribute equivalent to the cost of the toys and fireworks and lives they break, expend and end. But they don't even fulfill that most basic of 'Pay for yourself!' Roman rule anymore.

Just stop already. You're embarrassing yourself.

I generally find it's the most aggressive and obsessive of people who tend to use threats of superiority to browbeat others into silence when they have nothing to say themselves.

I certainly don't enjoy speaking with you. You bring nothing to the conversation but bullheadedness on topics that I already know better than you.

This will be the final response to you from me.


LEG

[Bellosh101]

And it was 3 million clones because that is the Lucas acknowledged canon number.

Completely wrong; Ryan Kaufman had to officially retract the 3 million number (which Lucas DIDN'T come up with) when everyone that had a brain complained about how pathetic that number was. Meanwhile, Count Dooku in the Clone Wars animated series (which ranks higher in canon than any shit Traviss came up with) states that the droids outnumber the clones by a 100 to 1. Using either the 3 million clone number or the quadrillion droid number as a starting point, only two possibilities exist. If the GAR is 3 million, than the Droid Army can only be about 30 million. If the Droid Army numbers in the quadrillions, than the clones would have to number at least ten trillion in order to fit Dooku's claims. Either way, you need to learn that T canon > C canon. In cases of continuity conflict, the higher-ranked canon is always the most authorative. Thanks to the CW TV show, the old size estimates aggressively promoted by Traviss can no longer be considered canon.

[Imperial528]

None of which changes the fact that Clones would be useless against droids because they would not be able to cover 50 million worlds at equivalent production rates and _in a realistic setting_ could not match the combat performance of droids either.

Given that the standard B1 battle droid is the majority of the CIS ground force, and that they can barely hit immobile targets, a single clone will have a much better combat performance, as a standard clone can aim and hit a man-sized target levels of magnitude more than a B1.

If they are useless then why expend money to create them that way? Why not clone Jedi who have gifts of agility and telekinesis and precognition and let the Jedi Clones use blasters and armor as adjunctive 'militarizing the keepers of the peace'? Because that would make too much sense of course.

You cannot clone force sensitive individuals without a certain type of cloning method. And without Ysalimiri blocking the force from being inside each cloning chamber, the resulting clones will be insane. Having just one hundred insane jedi is a bad thing indeed.

The Republic cannot legally use Clones without violating it's own antislavery policy. It cannot usefully employ so few, inept, Clones against so many, superior, battledroids.

Emergency powers would grant Palpy the ability to say that clones are not considered full people, which would make sense since the majority of the clones will accept any order from a superior officer (which basically means that they have no free will at all) and all clones accept the fact that they were made to serve the Republic as its military force. And the battledroids are not at all superior, with the exceptions of the Droideka and the Super Battledroid, which are outnumbered by the inferior B1.

Again, ground combatants die for nearly random reasons because they are exposed to so many different threats. Thus the inane idea that you would invest GE into making them superior is ludicrous. You clone people who are going to live long enough to make the payoff worthwhile. Engineers, physicists, doctors, artists, philosophers.

Engineers, physicists, doctors, artists, and philosophers DO NOT FIGHT. They stand behind the lines, and only three of your list could even contribute to the war effort in any way. Apparently you forget that the cloning process the Kaminoans used make the clones live half the lifespan of a baseline human? And that they can be taught any skills need? (Which is why there are clones who are battlefield medical doctors, mechanics, commanders, etc)

You conscript idiots in numbers to swamp the enemy so that the attack comes on such a broad front that it cannot be defended against with even cheap (mines etc.) desultory/ambush attrition systems before you are through the defensive belt and in motion in their rear areas. U.S. vs. European professional army policies in WWII make clear the difference in effectiveness.

We took more losses but we did it over a shorter period of fighting and so, overall, our losses were lower than those of nations who had been fighting ineffectually, for years.

The baseline clone is a soldier who follows orders to the letter and was learning squad tactics and shooting when most baseline humans are learning 1+1=2. And you need to train conscripted idiots (Unless you want to have soldiers which are less effective than a B1), when once a baseline clone hits 10 years (which for clones is 20) you give him a gun, armor, and get him to the front.

Not as fast as you can conscript those who are already adults and already at risk to an invasion by droids in the quintillions. And should you, somehow, manage to create those 'billions' from just one planet's resources, you must still redirect massive amounts of resources to their care and feeding both during the war and after. 50 million worlds times 2 billion lives per planet is 100 quadrillion "Here, point this end towards the enemy and squeeze this." instant soldiers. Which you are gonna need right quick like since the Republic essentially started the war illegally by trying to rescue a spy and two murderers who were being executed according to the legal custom of the planet they were on.

A spy? Hm, yes... Obi-Wan was spying... But then again, he was tracking the bounty hunter which was in league with the bounty hunter who tried to kill a Senator. Murderers? Hm, no, I don't remember any killing in anything other than self-defense, and most killing was of droids. Let's not forget that there was no chance for Anakin or Padme to surrender. About the resources you bring up: you need to use the same resources to care for any other army. Point?

Dramatically it's also stupid. The fact that these Clones, created by a Jedi are NOT themselves Force Adepts should lead to instant suspicion that they are the least not the best possible fighting force, specifically designed to fight to a failure level against the overwhelming tide of enemy. The fact that Jango is seen in the company of Dooku as Clone Source and Droid Commander should also clue in anyone that this is a conspiracy. And the certainty that this conspiracy began BEFORE the war was even a dot on the horizon should be the final nail in the coffin on using these ineffectual and suspect sourced Clones. Because it's not Clones or Nothing. It's Clones or something Better. Normal Humans. Now who's cherry picking among facts he doesn't like? 200,000 units = 200,000 men because units are how a commercial salesmen deals in mass merchandising. And it was 3 million clones because that is the Lucas acknowledged canon number. Don't bother me with Traviss bashing. Deal with the sheer stupidity of assuming that 3 million super soldiers are going to deal with quintillions of droids better than an ordinary Joe with his 100 quadrillion fellows. It is this simple fact which, as much as anything, makes 'The Clone Wars' and thus the PT a total farce.

Jango Fett is a bounty hunter, the Kaminoans used him as a clone template because he fit the criteria and they could easily pay him to agree. The Kaminoans don't care if said template recently tried to assassinate a Senator, because the Kaminoans are interested in getting their sales done and their banks accounts fat. Likewise, Jango is interested in getting work, and the CIS happens to be willing to provide. Also, may I note that both the GAR and conscripted forces were used by the Republic. And the 3 million number is bullshit. I did a quick brush up and the estimates go anywhere from 3 million to 18 trillion clonetroopers, so unless Lucas comes out with a statement, we're forced to conclude that there were enough clones to make a difference.

It's not my fault that you foolishly didn't consider how to create a logical defense based upon denying the presence of biologic organisms in a biologic being but not in ALL biologic beings. You simply, arbitrarily, stated that it wasn't genetic. If it were environmental, there would be injections to make normal humans into Adepts. If it weren't genetic, then it would not pass down through multiple generations in one family. But not others. If a non Adept has an Adept child, that doesn't mean it's not gentic, it means you lack a basic Mendellian awareness of dominant/recessive heritability fractions. If 'proving a negative' means you overstepped the boundaries of common knowledge then hell yes, I am asking you to prove it. Don't whine at me when you cannot reinforce the certainty of your prior assertion.

The Force is not related to genetics nor environmental reasons (The case I brought up a bit ago about Dorsk 81 shoots a hole clean through your argument). In all cases of force sensitivity it has either happened out of the blue or been extremely strong in the family. Your failure to understand how force sensitivity functions isn't my problem. Nor is it Jim's.

If he wants Palpatine dead, then he need only stick his saber in him when they are close enough to make a fight of it. Of all the Jedi, Dooku, with his willingness to use offensive electrical attacks is the one I would pick to fight Sidious to a victory. He certainly makes Anakin look like a freakin' pumpkin. OTOH, he doesn't have to fight Sidious to destroy the Republic. He just has to rat him out and let the internal conflicts between Jedi, Sith and Senate do the job for him. Certainly the Jedi are not competent if they let that kind of a threat get that close and those among the Senate who would support Sidious anyway (because he is good for their business) vs. those who would abstain, withdraw or hold both parties at fault would make a real mess of the political situation.

Outright killing Palpatine would violate the rule of two, which basically says that the apprentice should strike when the master no longer can teach him. Any apprentice who strikes before that time will likely fail entirely.

At the same time, improving the known flaws in his battle droids so that they become the overwhelming killers their numbers should dictate them to be, does NOT require Dooku to use them aggressively to destroy the market base his clients depend on to sell their wares/services to. It's not even as if Dooku has a choice, because even if he purposefully ignores their weaknesses, he is not the only one with a stake in the
war's outcome and those in the techno union at least will recognize the obvious flaws in their creations. Again, the PT falls down on the basis of assuming that nobody would notice the obvious as much as have the ability to do anything about it. And that is why Lucas sucks as a creative story teller. He is as arbitrary in his plot arcs as a hammer to the forehead.

And your arguments would be improved if a hammer struck your forehead.
Remember, the B2 super battle droid came into production as a result of the failure of the B1, yet the B1 is still used en-mass because it is cheap cannon fodder. Once you remove the B1, sure, you have better soldiers now, but they are in smaller numbers, higher in cost, and still not to the same tactical ability of the opposition. Not to mention that the CIS is run by bureaucrats and greedy businessmen who ARE NOT very smart when it comes to fighting a war. Time and time again in the PT movies, clone wars shows, and clone wars literature it is shown that the CIS relies on quantity over quality 100% of the time.

A 20km deep battlefield on Geonosis and rather than battle taxi under armor to key points before debussing, or VE from a LAAT and force the enemy to defend several attack axes and strongpoints of at once, these dumb fools RUN across the landscape, facing droid threats with thicker armor and stabilized fire on the move.

When the GAR do go mech, it's almost always in oversized rhinoceros beetle quad walkers that are too slow to be believable, even as WWI platforms.

Turbo tank, bitch. Also, the AT-TE is actually quite fast for its size (~38mph, as compared to the 30mph off-road speed of the Abrams, note that the AT-TE has a longer weapons range and firepower which would make an Abrams gunner cry), the AT-TE also has more range capability (500km>465km), ten tons of cargo capacity, and air and food for 3 weeks. The Turbo Tank/HAVw A6 has a range of 30,000km and air and food for twenty days and 30 tons of cargo capacity. It has a grenade launcher which has a range of 30km as well. Then there's the BARC speeder bike, which has a top speed of 325mph. And there's also the AT-RT, which has a speed of ~56mph and weapons capable of taking out our tanks.

I need not list anymore, or your SWORDS might stop working because their operators pissed themselves and got the hell out of the area.

Infantry on Infantry, a SWORDS will put a stream of bullets through the visor slit of a clone at 500m. A Clone will not even SEE the robot at that distance.

IIRC, no modern machine gun is capable of such accuracy at 500m. Which doesn't matter, since the DC-15 blaster rifle has an effective range of 10Km on a full-power shot when mounted on a tripod or bipod (which out ranges any weapon portable by a SWORD), and any shot from it could likely kill anything man-sized we have today.

The SWORDS partner will then fire off a volley of 40mm grenades and the worthless 'elite' super soldiers will be blown apart because they don't stagger their lines, they have no concept of bounding advance and their own heavy fire support is entirely pathetic.

Grenades which, unless the shrapnel gets through the joints, will just knock a few guys down. Of course, you assume the SWORDS can get in range.


Also, could you use paragraphs? We're not in 3rd grade, we can read blocks of text.

[LopEaredGaloot]

Belosh,

Completely wrong; Ryan Kaufman had to officially retract the 3 million number (which Lucas DIDN'T come up with) when everyone that had a brain
complained about how pathetic that number was.

Until these _troop not unit_ numbers change-

>
Grand Army—10 systems armies, a total of 3,000,000[source?] units, with
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine as commander-in-chief.
Systems Army—2 Sector Armies (294,912 troops) led by a High Jedi
General.
Sector Army—4 corps (147,456 troops) led by a Senior Jedi General.
Corps—4 legions (36,864 troops) led by a clone marshal commander and a
Jedi General.
Legion/Brigade—4 regiments (9,216 troops) led by a senior clone
commander and a Jedi General.
Regiment—4 battalions (2,304 troops) led by a clone trooper commander,
clone regimental commander, and a Jedi Commander.
Battalion—4 companies (576 troops) led by a major.
Company—4 platoons (144 troops) led by a captain.
Platoon—4 squads (36 troops) led by a lieutenant.
Squad—9 soldiers led by a sergeant.
>

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/GAR

You can bitch and moan until you're blue in the face. It's 3 million men.

Meanwhile, Count Dooku in the Clone Wars animated series (which ranks higher in canon than any shit Traviss came up with) states that the droids outnumber the clones by a 100 to 1.

Whoopy.

>
"Our Droid Armies outnumber the Republic clones 100 to 1."
―Count Dooku, to King Katuunko[src]
>

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army

Generalist propaganda bullshitting by someone who doesn't know or care to give the real numbers while impressing someone he wants as an ally or vassal.

Vs. Real Numbers-

>
What would ultimately become a Separatist army originally began as
several immense forces comprised almost exclusively of droids.[1] When
merged, these formed a colossal army numbering in the quintillions.[2]
>

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army

>
Under his orders, these corporate giants began to purchase huge orders of battle droids from the millions of factories controlled by companies such as Baktoid Combat Automata, Colicoid Creation Nest, and Haor Chall
Engineering over a decade before the start of the Clone Wars.[7] While the Invasion of Naboo provided an inkling of what was to come, it was not until Count Dooku deployed over a million B1 battle droids, one
hundred thousand B2 super battle droids, and three thousand droidekas, plus many other types, at the Battle of Geonosis in 22 BBY that the Republic understood the scope of the threat, thus the Clone Wars had
begun.[8
>

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army

>
LAMA SU: Please... (gestures to chair) And now to business.

You will be delighted to hear we are on schedule. Two
hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way.
>

http://www.blueharvest.net/scoops/aotc-script.shtml

A business man talks of units as individual commercial quantities of sale, not as a military application.

200,000 'units' = 200,000 clones.

Of course, amateurs talk force-on-force tactics while experts discuss the logistics to bring them to a common frontal positioning necessary to actually face one another.

So suppose the Clones only had enough lift to put a division on Geonosis.

That's not 200,000 men but 20,000.

Roughly the total compliment of an Acclamator.

1,103,000 / 20,0000 = 51:1 odds.

This at the beginning of a war when, presumeably, (knowing they were coming) the Count would have the maximum number of droids -available-
(within reasonable distance without depleting other critical defenses) to fight back on Geonosis where it was necessary to make it absolutely clear that the Jedi were the ones making an illegal attack and this was
war, not a rescue mission.

Which is where things get complicated.

Because the _Trade Federation_ and _Commerce Guilds_ AT THE TIME had-

>
Backed by the millions of warships comprising the Confederate Navy, the Separatist challenged the rule of the Republic across the galaxy, beginning in 22 BBY, with the outbreak of the Clone Wars.[2]
>

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army

The means to move armies of millions of suitcase-sized droids under conditions of zero lifesupport requirement as maximized internal volume on their much bigger ships.

Whereas I'm supposed to believe that ONE MAN used his family wealth to build both the droid army and the Clones -and- that he gave these 'quadrillion' troops (in less than a decade) 1,000,000,000,000,000 /
20,000 X.25 = 12.5 BILLION ships.

With which to be able to move a mere 25% of his enemy's forces around the galaxy in response to his own quintillions advance.

Robots which again, can probably be shipped in the low millions per vessel.

Dooku has to be both the stupidest and richest bastard in the history of the SWU. No scratch that, let's be honest here: Dooku had better be God. Cause only God could do something as bassackwards idiotic as this 'miracle', on a budget.

And don't feed me no lines about 'they were built later' either. The war ran for 3-4 years. If it's not exiting the slipways as hostilities begin, it's not gonna be a part of the campaigns.

And who is building these ships anyway? It would seem that all the industrial capability is on the side of the Seps.

Using either the 3 million clone number or the quadrillion droid number as a starting point, only two possibilities exist. If the GAR is 3 million, than the Droid Army can only be about 30 million. If the Droid Army numbers in the quadrillions, than the clones would have to number
at least ten trillion in order to fit Dooku's claims. Either way, you need to learn that T canon > C canon. In cases of continuity conflict, the higher-ranked canon is always the most authorative. Thanks to the CW TV show, the old size estimates aggressively promoted by Traviss can
no longer be considered canon.

No. Cartoons are not the answer.

The real answer is that the droids, which have been in production for at least two decades (if they were already at division level = 20,000 unit formation sizes at Naboo) from MILLIONS of factories, will in fact outnumber the Clones by millions to one.

There are only 200,000 clones at the opening of the campaign and less than 10,000 Jedi. And there will only ever be 3 million clones overall.

All the ships you are going to need to fight and -win- this war as a function of trooplift are going to have to be available RIGHT NOW because the Seps will strike back as soon as you give them cause by making an illegal attack on a sovereign, non-Republic, world.

And the first places they will hit will be shipyards and other military fabrication facilities, assuming these facilities are not in fact already under Sep dominion.

In which case you have to wonder at the profit motive of idiots building ships for their enemy throughout the period of 'tension' beforehand.

Lucas can't change any of the canon numbers without completely blowing out the trooplift requirements and because the war is so short, he can't honestly expect us to 'just assume' that more were built later because the Republic will be swamped in a matter of weeks.

1 million factories producing 1 battle droid a day for 365 days X 20 years = 7.3 BILLION droids.

Let me repeat: At one per day, per factory.

Halve the number of years because the Seps got a late start. And you're still at 3.65 billion.

The Clones cannot compete. They never could. Which mean's Lucas' twisted dumbass ideal of showing how the 'elitist' Jedi are outclassed by the simple everyman-dalorian midget New Zealanders is a bunch of
hooey.

For they are no more likely to be able to hold off that horde than the Jedi themselves are.

And any IDIOT that tries to 'adapt as adopt' Lucas' stupid storyline logic to their own conventions is going to be from-the-start fucked where it hurts by -his- as their own retarded understanding of some very basic math.


LEG

[Bellosh101]

Until these _troop not unit_ numbers change-Grand Army—10 systems armies, a total of 3,000,000[source?] units, with
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine as commander-in-chief.

Hahaha.... the ROTS novelization explicitly states that Palpatine didn't become the GAR commander-in-chief until after the Battle of Coruscant. Novelizations are considered G-canon, which means the C-canon OOB created by Traviss is rendered non-canon for conflicting with G-canon. You lose.

Generalist propaganda bullshitting by someone who doesn't know or care to give the real numbers while impressing someone he wants as an ally or vassal.

Have you ever learned simple division, moron? If the GAR really was 3 million strong while facing a droid army of quadrillions, the reality is that Dooku would have been grossly understating the size difference between the two factions. If Traviss's numbers were correct, then Dooku would have every right to claim that the droids outnumbered the clones on the magnitude of at least a trillion to one. However the droid:clone ratio given in the TV show proves Traviss wrong, so you lose again.

No. Cartoons are not the answer.

So you're going to cherrypick T-canon evidence now, asshole? Go screw yourself.

[LopEaredGaloot]

Belosh101,

Hahaha.... the ROTS novelization explicitly states that Palpatine didn't become the GAR commander-in-chief until after the Battle of Coruscant. Novelizations are considered G-canon, which means the C-canon OOB created by Traviss is rendered non-canon for conflicting with G-canon. You lose.

Which of course makes sense since the 'G-Canon' of AOTC states that 'a million more are well on the way', implying that the full production of Clones has not been achieved. And likely never will be.

OTOH, your hiding behind someone else' dogma doesn't change the fact that for the odds to be so severely imbalanced and the war not over in days or weeks, would require the active collusion by the -entire- Separatist forces in their own defeat.

While the notion that Dooku in particular has all these droids, knows what is about to happen on Geonosis yet fails to marshall a force sufficient to trounce the Jedi AND the Clones is utterly ridiculous for a man playing with such potential consequences to himself -and- his ideals.

(Imagine: the Clones win and now the staticized and entropic Republic has TWO enforcer groups to make sure 'nothing changes'.)

Thus the real problem here is that George doesn't have his own story straight enough for 'canon' to be worth firing out of a cannon. And you look extremely brain washed for having mindlessly bought into the details of something which, on it's face, is impractical if not impossible to justify.

Have you ever learned simple division, moron? If the GAR really was 3 million strong while facing a droid army of quadrillions, the reality is that Dooku would have been grossly understating the size difference between the two factions. If Traviss's numbers were correct, then Dooku would have every right to claim that the droids outnumbered the clones on the magnitude of at least a trillion to one. However the droid:clone ratio given in the TV show proves Traviss wrong, so you lose again.

Actually, I believe it was you who said 30 million droids. If the odds were 100:1 it would be 300 million. So much for teaching me math.

>
...states that the droids outnumber the clones by a 100 to 1. Using either the 3 million clone number or the quadrillion droid number as a starting point, only two possibilities exist. If the GAR is 3 million, than the Droid Army can only be about 30 million.
>

This is you, isn't it?

You further underline your incompetence to be making such judgements when you again fail to acknowledge the 'G-canon' of "200,000 units being ready with a million more well on the way..." DOES NOT SUPPORT THE NOTION that there are a quadrillion clones out there.

OTOH, the droid foundry scene -does- support such a notion because that is a believable looking assembly line, the Seps include all the industrial and interstellar commerce (= trooplift) factions of an already enormous universe and they have been at it for at least 10 and probably closer to 20 years at the time the war -starts-, not finishes.

Any way you look at it, you are in fact undermining your argument that the Clowns are in fact facing or defeating 100:1 odds. Because the droids number in the low billions and the humans would not and indeed _have not_ faced (main force) 100:1 odds at the time of the Geonosis fight on AOTC.

Which is the only 'canon' I am forced to accept. Since I don't watch inanely childish cartoons.

So you're going to cherrypick T-canon evidence now, asshole? Go screw yourself.

You know, they say that immitation is the sincerest form of flattery but what 'they' forget to mention is that it's also the cheapest form of self parody. Or maybe I should say parroting. Because your's is truly a mindless squawking.

And the sad part is that it doesn't help your case at all because it locks your mind against seeing the obvious. For Lucas to 'do it the way he always intended to' (retcon in an arbitrarry number of Clones) he has to also compress the number produced, per -day- to astronomical figures in order to match the acknowledged quintillion count of the droids. And suppose he does so by pretending 'units' = division or corps level formation sizes. Now he has to also add in the requisite number of ships to transport these men, living in the trillions on a literal 'water world' swamped by global warming, in sufficient numbers that their typical engagement count is 'only' 100:1 out of a base 1,000,000:1 odds. That's right. The difference between a trillion man army and a quintillion droid equivalent is six zeroes.

And the kinds of transport you need to achieve in a 25% lift of that total troop count is in the billions, assuming they are all Acclamator class vessels.

Since Sidious has to remain a publically clean (poor) politician, that means that Tyrannus is footing the bill for BILLIONS of ship hulls, and TRILLIONS of men.

Which I guarantee you, even using Star Wars tech, are not being built at a rate to match the creation and instant-train education of Clones. And so cannot be built in time to influence the outcome between Geonosis and Utapau.

And this is why Lucas has not changed the numbers, even though it is a collossal embarrassment to his entire conspiracy of idiots plot: he knows he can only make things worse by highlighting the superiority of the machines over the everyman-dalorian clones.

What's the first thing you do when you find yourself in a hole? Stop Digging.

Lucas is counting on fools like yourself to continue kicking up cartoon clouds of obfuscation of the facts so that he can slink away quietly to his next clusterfuck of absentminded storytelling. But myself and those like me who can think these things thru rationally, aren't gonna let him out of that hole he's dug like we did with ROTJ.

No matter how it upsets little parrot minds in the process.


LEG


Imp, you'll get yours when I have time to finish some research.

[Jim Raynor]

In addition to being nuts, LopEaredRetard can't write or format for shit. God, is there any reason why you have to break your sentences into fragments, and space each one out like that to inflate the length of your posts and make it a pain in the ass to read? Try something called PARAGRAPHS. I will deal with his pain in the ass post later.

When all is said and done, I think this guy will go down as one of the legendary retards on this board.

[Aaron]

I find it humorous that he thinks Lucas actually cares what nerds thinks and won't change the numbers out of some weirdo conspiracy thing. I'm pretty sure that the only folks who care about this stuff are on small web boards like this one and that Lucas is rolling in enough cash to dismiss them. Hell, he's said before that he doesn't care what happens in the EU and he'll trample it if he feels like it.


I don't think LEG will go down as a legendary retard though Jim. There isn't much here that hasn't been brought up before, its just wrapped up in excessive verbiage and woo-woo-ism.

[Bellosh101]

OTOH, your hiding behind someone else' dogma doesn't change the fact that for the odds to be so severely imbalanced and the war not over in days or weeks, would require the active collusion by the -entire- Separatist forces in their own defeat.

Or just by Darth Sidious and Darth Tyrannus. Read the Battle of Kamino comic-arc to see how the Sith can orchestrate a CIS offensive only to intentionally botch it in order to prolong the war. I would think that someone who indulges in Wookiepedia would have understood this by now.

Actually, I believe it was you who said 30 million droids. If the odds were 100:1 it would be 300 million.

I was using that Microsoft calculator, which doesn't nicely seperate those zeros and therefore makes the numbers somewhat hard to read. At any rate, that simple error doesn't disprove the notion that Traviss's numbers are incompatiable with higher canon. Let's see what dishonest arguments you can come up with next...

You further underline your incompetence to be making such judgements when you again fail to acknowledge the 'G-canon' of "200,000 units being ready with a million more well on the way..." DOES NOT SUPPORT THE NOTION that there are a quadrillion clones out there.

In no way does AOTC establish any maximun size for the Clone Army. The movie does not say how many other clones will be ready after that batch of a million. Ergo, the movie can't be used as evidence of your pathetic claims.

Now he has to also add in the requisite number of ships to transport these men, living in the trillions on a literal 'water world' swamped by global warming, in sufficient numbers... Since Sidious has to remain a publically clean (poor) politician, that means that Tyrannus is footing the bill for BILLIONS of ship hulls, and TRILLIONS of men.

For all your whining and bitching, I've noticed a distinct lack of any arguments that try to prove that the planet of Kamino had no capacity to make a trillion-man army (Tipoca City isn't the only settlement on Kamino afterall). Nor can you prove that the Sith Lords didn't have a whole crap load of secret bank accounts all throughout the galaxy for uses such as paying for a Clone Army. Color me very unimpressed.

[Captain Seafort]

You further underline your incompetence to be making such judgements when you again fail to acknowledge the 'G-canon' of "200,000 units being ready with a million more well on the way..." DOES NOT SUPPORT THE NOTION that there are a quadrillion clones out there.

In no way does AOTC establish any maximun size for the Clone Army. The movie does not say how many other clones will be ready after that batch of a million. Ergo, the movie can't be used as evidence of your pathetic claims.

Moreover, it uses the term "unit", which usually refers to a battalion or regiment, not an individual solider. The Republic may use it to refer to a considerably larger organisation (division, army group or even larger).

[Bellosh101]

Moreover, it uses the term "unit", which usually refers to a battalion or regiment, not an individual solider.

To be honest; I kinda like the concept of the Kaminoans refering to their individual clones as units. That issue doesn't bother me in the least anyway, since ITW:AOTC states clearly that millions of clone divisions were going through intensive performance evaluation at the time of the Battle of Geonosis. Traviss's (overridden) figures contradict this fact, so the burden is on our moronic friend here to explain how a three-million man army can have millions of divisions.

[Jim Raynor]

None of which changes the fact that Clones would be useless against

droids because they would not be able to cover 50 million worlds at

equivalent production rates and _in a realistic setting_ could not

match the combat performance of droids either.

They did a pretty good job of matching the performance of the droids that they DID face. And I hope you realize that the Clone Wars were fixed.

If they are useless then why expend money to create them that way? Why not clone Jedi who have gifts of agility and telekinesis and precognition and let the Jedi Clones use blasters and armor as adjunctive 'militarizing the keepers of the peace'?

The Force is NOT a genetic trait.

The Republic cannot legally use Clones without violating it's own

antislavery policy.

Did you miss the whole part about how the Clone Wars were destroying the principles of the Republic? How Chancellor Palpatine was given emergency powers, and how all the Senators cheered when he announced the formation of a military dictatorship?

You clone

people who are going to live long enough to make the payoff worthwhile.
Engineers, physicists, doctors, artists, philosophers.

Palpatine is going to clone artists and philosophers now, to fight a war for him. What the fuck. And again, your formatting is bizarre and a pain in the ass.

What the fuck? You can create countless billions of clones from just

one or a few people.

Not as fast as you can conscript those who are already adults and

already at risk to an invasion by droids in the quintillions.

Clones and normal conscripts are NOT mutually exclusive.

Which you are gonna need right quick like since the Republic essentially started the war illegally by trying to rescue a spy and two murderers who were being executed according to the legal custom of the planet they were on.

Dramatically it's also stupid.

What the fuck. So plotting the assassination of a sitting Senator, and creating an army for the purpose of fighting against your government, aren't illegal? It's funny how yousuddenly try to inject legalism into this.

The fact that these Clones, created by a Jedi are NOT themselves Force Adepts should lead to instant suspicion that they are the least not the best possible fighting force, specifically designed to fight to a failure level against the overwhelming tide of enemy.

BTW, assuming you can just clone Force aptitude, who is supposed to train a Jedi clone? Palpatine can't do it; he's the Chancellor and doesn't want anybody to know he can use the Force. The Jedi won't do it, since they're his enemies and are not a part of his conspiracy. Nevermind their likely moral opposition to it. If the Kaminoans COULD clone a Jedi, the first thing they would do is contact the Jedi to train their troops. There goes the conspiracy.

The fact that Jango is seen in the company of Dooku as Clone Source and

Droid Commander should also clue in anyone that this is a conspiracy.

Jango was a mercenary and bounty hunter from the start. It's easy to just say that he sold out for more money.

Now who's cherry picking among facts he doesn't like?

200,000 units = 200,000 men because units are how a commercial salesmen deals in mass merchandising.

Military units are not made of one man.

And it was 3 million clones because that is the Lucas acknowledged canon number.

Don't bother me with Traviss bashing. Deal with the sheer stupidity of

assuming that 3 million super soldiers are going to deal with

quintillions of droids better than an ordinary Joe with his 100

quadrillion fellows.

I will bash Traviss because Traviss's writings on the subject are so fucking stupid they're not even internally consistent. BTW, the same EU you're jerking off to DOES say that the Republic used conscripts in addition to clones.

So you're asking me to prove a negative. One that has not been

supported by canon or EU sources at that.

It's not my fault that you foolishly didn't consider how to create a

logical defense based upon denying the presence of biologic organisms in a biologic being but not in ALL biologic beings.

You simply, arbitrarily, stated that it wasn't genetic.

If it were environmental, there would be injections to make normal humans into Adepts.

If it weren't genetic, then it would not pass down through multiple generations in one family. But not others.

If a non Adept has an Adept child, that doesn't mean it's not gentic,

it means you lack a basic Mendellian awareness of dominant/recessive

heritability fractions.

What the fuck. The movies don't try to pass the Force off as anything other than magical. And here you are talking about "logic" when again, you're the one who asked me to prove a negative.

If he wants Palpatine dead, then he need only stick his saber in him

when they are close enough to make a fight of it. Of all the Jedi,

Dooku, with his willingness to use offensive electrical attacks is the

one I would pick to fight Sidious to a victory. He certainly makes Anakin look like a freakin' pumpkin.

OTOH, he doesn't have to fight Sidious to destroy the Republic. He

just has to rat him out and let the internal conflicts between Jedi,

Sith and Senate do the job for him.

What the fuck. "The Sith" amounts to all of one guy, who has just been ratted out and is surrounded by enemies. The Jedi would promptly kick his ass, as they do in the actual movie. Where is the part about destroying the Republic?

And that is why Lucas sucks as a creative story teller.

I'll take Lucas over you, you fucking retard.

Why "level terrain?" Obviously infantry is NOT just for use on level

terrain.

Because only monkeys and criminals run up?

You fucking piece of shit. I questioned you on why you had to choose "level terrain" for your wanked out TALON robots, when infantry is not used on level terrain. Don't give me a bunch of irrelevant bullshit to try to evade that question.

Because they can fire over terrain folds with sufficient onboard ammo

to defeat defiladed and/or reverse slope targets? Because, if the

enemy is 2km away, sitting on a ridgeline in the 'hills' of AfG, I am

not going to be able to get at him with infantry, or infantry portable weapons and will require airpower or a lofting round anyway?

No, what was it... OH YEAH!

If you want to talk airpower, the clones have a huge advantage in that. But we're not talking about airpower. We're talking infantry in messy and uneven terrain.

Clones advance in Napoleonic line fashion across open ground against droids that have no fear of death! Yeah, that was what it was. When facing morons, get low and shoot more effectively than they do.

And you know what? Despite their subpar tactics, the clones still got into close-quarters combat against big droids that make TALONs look like fucking toys. You have done nothing to prove that TALONs can massacre clonetroopers, as you claimed.

Interesting thing about a low target profile. It forces the other guy

to raise his head up to shoot YOU too.

Line of sight. It's a bitch.

Yeah, and when your own line of sight can barely clear tall grass, it's also a bitch.

Combat is actually conducted at walking pace most of the time. Soldiers who aren't gyro stabilized can't shoot worth a damn at running speeds.

Yeah, and soldiers are also expected to sprint at times during combat.

If you're going to resort to a robotic VEHICLE, then the clones

should get vehicle support as well. Not that SW blasters would have a

problem blowing one of these things the hell away.

Why? Clones have walked to wherever they are going in the SW films.

What the fuck. The clones fight in AT-TEs, which are fully air droppable. They have LAATs providing CAS and dropping more troops directly into the action.

A 20km deep battlefield on Geonosis and rather than battle taxi under armor to key points before debussing, or VE from a LAAT and force the enemy to defend several attack axes and strongpoints of at once, these dumb fools RUN across the landscape, facing droid threats with thicker armor and stabilized fire on the move.

Key points like the arena?

And since we saw LAATs dropping clones off within shooting distance of the droid army and the Separatist's parked starships, I think you're full of shit. In fact, we see blaster bolts coming UP at the LAATs as they fly by. But however subpar the clones' tactics in the movie were, they don't even come CLOSE to justifying your ridiculous attitude that the clones won't have any vehicle support, not even enough to deal with a fucking real life unmanned ground drone. One Juggernaut would roll over that shit without even blinking.

When the GAR do go mech, it's almost always in oversized rhinoceros beetle quad walkers that are too slow to be believable, even as WWI platforms.

You little cherry-picking prick. You love to bring up obscure EU, yet you ignore the EU that says their walkers top out at 60 km/hr (37.5 mph). That's near modern MBT speeds, and far faster than WWI tank speeds.

Infantry on Infantry, a SWORDS will put a stream of bullets through the visor slit of a clone at 500m. A Clone will not even SEE the robot at that distance.

Against moving targets? Through slopes and other obstructions? Don't use maximum ranges in ideal situations during a test.

The SWORDS partner will then fire off a volley of 40mm grenades and the worthless 'elite' super soldiers will be blown apart because they don't stagger their lines, they have no concept of bounding advance and their own heavy fire support is entirely pathetic.

Sure, pathetic because you say so.

And your response is exactly why this kind of defeatist retardation of the advance of military science to hardly more than WWII levels works.

The present-day US Military has tech "hardly more than WWII levels." This guy is obviously off his fucking meds.

The only reason I laugh is that I know, if you're a citizen, you have to pay for the scam with about 7X as much tax dollar per warfighter as you should.

This nerdboy freak doesn't just think he knows movies better than George Lucas, but that he knows the military better than the people who actually run it.

The Chain Of Command is based on exploiting the inequity of firepower organic to individual units and thus creating more specialist forces than one local commander can adequately control.

The infantry squad or section is the smallest of those force constructs, utterly unable to support itself in the face of heavy combined arms ambushes, never mind indirect fire.

Fuck you and your conspiracy theories.

Yet a tank is perversely 'too valuable' to go door to door with an infantry squad, nor would they want it to because it's an explosive fires magnet.

So, 'when called', it stands off anywhere from 100 to 1,000m and only shoots after someone in the infantry has already taken fire, say from a house that is about to be collapsed by 120mm HEAT.

OTOH, if the infantry have tank like firepower with them, as with an AT-4 dual mount on a SWORDS, they don't need to wait for that armor to be tasked, dispatched, make travel time and coordinate linkup with them.

An AT4 is not "tank like firepower." Does the SWORDS even carry AT4? Furthermore, if an AT4 is enough, then you can just have a human carry it.

[Channel72]

The fact that Jango is seen in the company of Dooku as Clone Source and

Droid Commander should also clue in anyone that this is a conspiracy.

Jango was a mercenary and bounty hunter from the start. It's easy to just say that he sold out for more money.

Despite all of the weirdness and conspiracy theory nonsense, this LopEaredGaloot guy is right about this point at least. Your response is one possible, in-universe explanation, but really, you shouldn't have to make up excuses like this.

Why would Dooku even risk being seen with Jango Fett, let alone parade him around in front of the Separatist leaders? Doesn't he think they'll start asking questions when they find out that every Republic soldier looks exactly like this mysterious bounty hunter? Yeah, sure, Dooku could invent any excuse, but why would he put himself in that position to begin with? If you were orchestrating such a conspiracy where you were playing both sides, would you take such a risk? If it were me, I wouldn't allow Jango Fett anywhere near Geonosis. And I certainly wouldn't send him off on assassination missions either. Couldn't Dooku get some other assasin to kill Padme - perhaps some other assassin who wasn't a critical element in his galaxy-wide conspiracy? In fact, if I were Dooku, I'd immediately have Jango killed as soon as he served his purpose as a genetic template.

You have to admit, the way the script handles Jango is just bizarre. It's like he's this glaringly obvious link between the two armies, and nobody seems to care.

[Imperial528]

Nobody cares because he's a bounty hunter. Shit like that happens in RL too, people follow the money. And the Republic did not chose him to be the clone template, the Kaminoans did. Palpatine had no say in the creation of the clone army, but when he found out about it, he used it to his advantage. So in the end, the connection is only coincidental. Besides, he died at the start of the war anyway.

And he was actually an accomplice in the assassination attempt on Padme. Which of course still makes him guilty, but it doesn't make it too obvious that he was there.

[Channel72]

And the Republic did not chose him to be the clone template, the Kaminoans did. Palpatine had no say in the creation of the clone army, but when he found out about it, he used it to his advantage.

What the hell are you talking about? It's heavily implied that Palpatine and/or Dooku ordered the creation of the Clone Army under the moniker Sifo-Dyas. Dooku personally recruited Jango Fett to serve as the template.

[Jim Raynor]

Oh, I agree that Jango Fett fits in awkwardly. Which is why I totally disagree with all the fanboys that think Jango should've been given even more to do. But when someone's a mercenary like Jango is, it's easy for both sides to just call him a traitor. If there's an easy rationalization like that, I don't mind.

[Knife]

You guys don't even try anymore;

On whether or not the Republic saw the obvious conspiracy of Jango Fett and the Clones

"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. "Why would Sifo-Dyas-"

"When placed, this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said, and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died.

"If this Jango Fett was involved in trying to kill the Senator, and just happened to be chosen as the source for a clone army, created for the Republic..." Mace Windu stopped and shook his head. The coincidence was too great for those two items to be simple chance. But how could one tie in with the other? Was it possible that whoever decided to create the clone army was afraid that Senator Amidala would be a strong enough voice to prevent that army from being used?

Mace and Yoda saw it immediately. So why did the Republic use the clones?

"Throughout the galaxy, thousands of Jedi there are," the diminutive Jedi Master replied. "To send on a special mission, only two hundred are available."

"With all due respect to the Jedi Order, that doesn't sound like enough, " Bail Organa said.

"Through negotiation the Jedi maintain peace," Yoda replied. "To start a war, we do not intend."

his continued calm only seemed to push the frantic Ask Ask over the edge. "The debate is over!" he cried. "Now we need that clone army."

Yoda closed his eyes slowly, pained by the weight of the reason behind the dreaded words.

"Unfortunately, the debate is not over," Bail Organa said. "The Senate will never approve the use of the army before the separatists attack. And by then, it will likely be too late."

"this is a crisis," Mas Amedda dared interject. "The Senate must vote the Chancellor emergency powers! he could then approve the use of the clones."

The Jedi knew it was some sort of conspiracy, but the Republic had more immediate problems with an coming attack of Separatists and their battle droids to worry about and the politicians decided to use the suspicious clone army anyway. Let alone the obvious that Sidious was the Chancellor and wanted to use the Clone Army for his own personal goals. What goals?

Order Sixty-Six is the climax of the Clone Wars.

Not the end-the Clone Wars will end some few hours from now, when a coded signal, sent by Nute Gunray from the secret Separatist bunker on Mustafar, deactivates very combat droid in the galaxy at once-but the climax.

It's not a thrilling climax; it's not the culmination of an epic struggle. just the opposite, in fact. The Clone Wars were never an epic struggle. They were never intended to be.

What is happening right now is why the Clone Wars were fought in the first place. It is their reason for existence. The Clone Wars have always been, in and of themselves, from their very inception, the revenge of the Sith.

They were irresistible bait. They took place in remote locations, on planets that belonged, primarily, to 'somebody else." They were fought by expendable proxies. And they were constructed as a win-win situation.

The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.

By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.

Dooku's thoughts and struggles are in there as well, I'll get to them later.

Edit: Had to fix a bunch of quote tags.

[recon20011]

In which case you have to wonder at the profit motive of idiots building ships for their enemy throughout the period of 'tension' beforehand.

I will gladly point you towards the situation in Europe prior to the First World War, where English shipbuilders built superdreadnaughts for any nation that could pay, including but not limited to their soon-to-be enemy, the Ottoman Empire. When you build warships for a living you cannot afford to keep your slipways and workers idle, so you offer your services to whoever will pay. If you wish I can give you a list of academic journal articles and books with more information about the Anglo-German naval race and about the English shipbuilding industry prior to the Great War.

And to preempt any attempt at arguing that a ship is a ship, and a shipbuilder can build a merchantman just as easily as he can a warship, well that simply is not true. Merchantmen are basically big air pockets that are intended to hold cargo and travel fairly slowly while being cheap and easy to construct. Warships need to have sufficient structural support to hold gun turrets and armor. Warships tend to be top-heavy as well. There is a thread discussing Mon Cal cruisers and liners and how designs for the two are different.

[Jim Raynor]

Nice quotes, Knife. Another point that should be brought up is that it was chance (and a lot of effort on Obi-Wan's part) that the clones were discovered early in AOTC. Palpatine planned to bring the clones in as the Republic's army anyway, even if things had turned out differently. He obviously would have had ways to do that, despite their secretive origins.

In AOTC, the Kaminoans believe that while Sifo-Dyas ordered the army, he was doing so at the request of the Senate. The movie also states that Palpatine controlled numerous Senators, and that there was a significant faction in the Republic government pushing for the creation of an army. It's not too hard to rationalize that Palpatine and Dooku financed the clone army by laundering money through numerous intermediaries (I've read that Labyrinth of Evil says just that) who actually were wealthy and influential Republic citizens. This means that the "conspiracy" was legitimately paid for by Republic citizens, for the purpose of helping the Republic. The Kaminoans would pass Jedi mind probes (which they did in the movie, as both Obi-Wan and Yoda inspected them), and their accounts and documentation would be legit as well. The people involved in Palpatine's scheme could easily be pardoned after he acquired emergency powers, if they even had to be. I imagine that once the Clone Wars started, those who were involved in the secret creation of the Clone Army would be hailed as patriotic heroes who had the foresight to give the Republic the military that it needed.

EDIT: Jango Fett's involvement would raise some suspicion, but when everything else checks out and the army works perfectly fine, they could just write him off as a traitor.