Durasteel

[DudeGuyMan]

That depends on the effects and construction of the shield generator in question and keep in mind that all we see is a huge fireball

Not really. If the AT-AT guns spit out 16 kilotons then that energy needs to be somewhere. I can't imagine any reason why some property of the generator would prevent mass-vaporization of ice by magically absorbing energy and beaming it into a black hole even as the generator itself violently explodes.

(though at least in the fireball I see some white stuff that might be steam, also there is steam in the screenshots you quoted).

Sure, there's probably some steam somewhere in that big fireball we see in the cockpit shot. There would more or less have to be. But we're talking about the sudden violent release of 16 kilotons point-black onto the surface of a frozen ocean, with a solid one second (plenty of time) to observe the immediate aftermath. Where's the hell being raised? Where's the flash-vaporization of ice?

We get no instant vaporization of ice, and a small fireball that expands slowly over the course of several seconds. That's not at all consistent with the equivalent of a small nuke going off. It's much more consistent with a much lower yield weapon setting off a reaction in a highly energetic target.

What artillery? The guns were probably weak because we know that Vader wanted prisoners and the rebels would probably not really like to nuke themselves by using heavy weaponry near the Imps, who are pretty close to them.

Yet another Star Wars battle where everyone just so happened to turn their guns down to a fraction of their real power without telling us? Anyway, why would the rebels need to worry about killing themselves with the blowback from their own weapons? The lead AT-AT was supposedly still 17km away when it blew the generator, and they had been taking hits from rebel fixed positions long before that.

Hell if the snowspeeders had kiloton-level guns like X-wings supposedly do, they could have just strafed the ground beneath the walkers. Invincible armor won't keep them upright when the terrain is being randomly vaporized out from under their feet.

[Bakustra]

It's worth noting that the Hiroshima bomb detonated higher above the ground. So what that means is that there should be a broad crater melted out of the ice around the generator, but there also should have been a brief tremor. Both of these would have been evident in the film, and both were absent. In addition, the Hiroshima-level is based upon an unjustified assumption; that "one seven decimal two eight" must literally refer to 17.28 kilometers, which creates its own problems with perspective.

[Thanas]

It's worth noting that the Hiroshima bomb detonated higher above the ground. So what that means is that there should be a broad crater melted out of the ice around the generator, but there also should have been a brief tremor. Both of these would have been evident in the film, and both were absent.

Actually, we never see the area around the generator after the explosion, so we do not know if there was a broad crater or not. Also, I believe the novelization does mention tremors (though I do not know or remember if it does right after the generator exploded) - and you see the base collapsing all around the rebel forces.

[Bakustra]

It's worth noting that the Hiroshima bomb detonated higher above the ground. So what that means is that there should be a broad crater melted out of the ice around the generator, but there also should have been a brief tremor. Both of these would have been evident in the film, and both were absent.

Actually, we never see the area around the generator after the explosion, so we do not know if there was a broad crater or not. Also, I believe the novelization does mention tremors (though I do not know or remember if it does right after the generator exploded) - and you see the base collapsing all around the rebel forces.

Those tremors are as the Imperial troops enter Echo Base, not as the generator goes up. If it really was a 17 kilometer distance between the generator and the walker, it'd take about an hour for the walkers to cross that distance. Anyways, a Hiroshima-range detonation should produce a magnitude 4 quake, which would have created cracks in the ice, and shook the area the Rebel soldiers were at. While the tremors in the base were about what a magnitude-4 or magnitude-3 quake would produce (rattling but little damage to the walls), the time disparity between the two would require either some oddly slow seismic waves or some oddly fast Imperial troops.

We do see the area around the generator after the initial hit, which should have looked at least somewhat different from melting ice, but instead looked exactly the same before the generator went up. Frankly, the only support for Hiroshima-range is the 17.28 kilometer interpretation, which has been challenged. Without that, the whole argument falls apart.

[Srelex]

Weren't there also tremors and rumbles when Vader and the troops were entering the base? And when Han was trying to retrieve Leia? Been a while seen I watched it, so I may be wrong.

[DudeGuyMan]

That one-second view of the aftermath of the strike on the generator should be more than enough for our purposes, even from the distance it was presented. I mean we can plainly see the generator itself as well as the explosion, it's not so far away as to be indistinguishable. We're not looking for some small subtle reaction here, either. That generator should be going from flush with the ground, to having it's underparts exposed amid a massive cloud of steam. Sixteen kilotons point-blank against plain old frozen water, it should be pretty much instant as well.

[Darth Hoth]

Hell if the snowspeeders had kiloton-level guns like X-wings supposedly do, they could have just strafed the ground beneath the walkers. Invincible armor won't keep them upright when the terrain is being randomly vaporized out from under their feet.

Why would they need to have those, though? Snowspeeders are light, low-altitude aircraft, not spacecraft. It makes sense that they would be more lightly armed; they certainly lack the shields and engine power of X-wings and equivalents.

Those tremors are as the Imperial troops enter Echo Base, not as the generator goes up. If it really was a 17 kilometer distance between the generator and the walker, it'd take about an hour for the walkers to cross that distance.

How do you establish that? The tech books peg AT-AT top speed at 60 kph.

[SeaTrooper]

I don't have the reference stating that the Walker's fire on the shield generator yielded 16kt, but we certainly don't see this. That much energy being released on impact would have generated a far more spectacular flash immediately, which we just don't see.

However, what if the bolts didn't lose containment on impact? I suggest that the generator's walls were not strong or thick enough to cause the heaviest bolts to lose containment, and instead they simply blew straight through the structure. In addition to any damage caused by this piercing, there could also have been some side-lobe energy bled into the structure and the generator itself to cause the later explosion. This might explain why we saw the delay between the hit and the final destruction of that site.

Your thoughts?

[Srelex]

How many blaster bolts did the AT-AT loose? I remember it being a volley, which could have added to the explosion offscreen, but I could be totally wrong as my memory is vague right now.

[DudeGuyMan]

Your thoughts?

The AT-AT guns are only supposedly 16 kilotons because someone 7 years ago analyzed the fireball while making questionable scaling assumptions and stroking their cock. If we concede that the fireball doesn't look like one that should result from such firepower, then there's no reason to assume that such firepower is in play at all.

[Vympel]

What the hell is this crap? I expect "lol all ground vehicles and mere repulsorcraft have kiloton scale weapons" on other forums, not here. There is no source that claims that any of the weapons employed by the Rebels or the Imperials were in the kiloton range. Has anyone talking ever actually read the E2ICS? Ever? Not a single ground vehicle in it has a weapon that exceeds single digit gigajoules*, max. The AT-AT guns are probably more powerful than this, but we don't know by how much. Check the "power generation" entry on Dr. Saxton's SWTC as to the reason for this.

That said, we know that the AT-ATs weren't using their maximum firepower when we saw them firing on the Rebel defensive positions throughout the battle. Firstly, because that's subject to an explicit order that Veers gives. Second, look at what happens to the Rebel base at least two times in the battle - the base (which is under a mountain) literally shakes from weapons impacts - impacts that can only be from the guns of the AT-ATs. And of course, there's when the command centre was hit (the command centre is very deep in the base). This could only have been done by weapons fire significantly more powerful than what the AT-ATs were lobbing at the trenches.

Given that its actually canon that Veers had orders to capture as many Rebels as possible (Inside the Worlds of the Original Trilogy) and the fact the defensive positions posed no threat, its clear that the AT-ATs reserved their most powerful blasts for trying to inflict damage on the base itself- the intent being possibly complicating evacuation efforts and/or spoiling Rebel command and control.

* Of course, whiners could complain that this isn't "seen" either, but this isn't nuclear scale firepower we're talking about and blaster bolts are not flying streamers of high explosives exactly equivalent to modern iron bombs.

[SeaTrooper]

The AT-AT guns are only supposedly 16 kilotons because someone 7 years ago analyzed the fireball while making questionable scaling assumptions and stroking their cock. If we concede that the fireball doesn't look like one that should result from such firepower, then there's no reason to assume that such firepower is in play at all.

Aw, crap. And noone called them on it? Okay, right, so if the 16kt is anywhere near accurate, its NOT from the ATATs fire but the energies released when the generator blew. How the hell did they explain the delay?

Only now, at the end (of this thread), do I understand it was bullshit from the beginning.

[Batman]

Your thoughts?

The AT-AT guns are only supposedly 16 kilotons because someone 7 years ago analyzed the fireball while making questionable scaling assumptions and stroking their cock. If we concede that the fireball doesn't look like one that should result from such firepower, then there's no reason to assume that such firepower is in play at all.

I shall await your analysis of the scene with bated breath.

[Agent Sorchus]

The AT-AT guns are only supposedly 16 kilotons because someone 7 years ago analyzed the fireball while making questionable scaling assumptions and stroking their cock. If we concede that the fireball doesn't look like one that should result from such firepower, then there's no reason to assume that such firepower is in play at all.

Aw, crap. And noone called them on it? Okay, right, so if the 16kt is anywhere near accurate, its NOT from the ATATs fire but the energies released when the generator blew. How the hell did they explain the delay?

Note that thread years ago had a ~16kt initial fireball followed by a 3+ megaton fireball. So no that is bullshit. The initial burst is definitely from the AT-AT's guns and is a 16kt weapon, the follow on is a secondary explosion. The only conceit is that it is km that is used by the Imperials (backed up entirely by the EU, I have never seen anything but km used in universe). In fact many people tried to disembowel the argument, but indeed nothing came of it.

Also Dudeguyman, you are simply wrong that a 15kt (I am approximating here, bear with me) doesn't rise as fast as the fireball that is observed. (There is almost no delay between flash and fireball, indeed we see a compression wave that is beginning to outrun the fireball before the scene changes)

Here beginning at 9:25 is a 15kt test from 1952.
And here at 5:20 is the explosion from the AT-At shot.

Not the similarities, the special effects are indeed close enough that they are basically the same, in my untrained eye.

Indeed Dudeguy... you are a moron.

[DudeGuyMan]

SNOW TURNS INTO STEAM WHEN YOU NUKE IT YOU STUPID TWAT.

[DudeGuyMan]

[Agent Sorchus]

SNOW TURNS INTO STEAM WHEN YOU NUKE IT YOU STUPID TWAT.

IT TAKES TIME TO TURN TO STEAM YOU IMBECILE (yes I can be a douche too, I don't have to be and it doesn't help the argument either way). The scene last all of two or three seconds, and the pressure wave is visibly still traveling, (this is the primary way things will be heated, light from the nuke is only going to be reflected by the snow). So once again you prove you know nothing. You also don't see the liquid glass produced by the nuke in 1952 do you? No because it is completely out of view during the blast. And yet we know that irradiated glass is going to be the result, we don't need to see it during the blast either.

Now go fuck yourself.

[DudeGuyMan]

I'm going to ignore the apparently enchanted snow and ice you think can withstand a 16 kiloton explosion point-blank for several seconds without even moving and just ask for some scrap of evidence for this imaginary compression wave.

Note that said compression wave should be observed to interact with the environment in some way. In other words, if it passes over a layer of snow and ice without even kicking it up any, you should probably choke on a cock and shut the fuck up.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I recall there was a thread a few years back that estimated the range of the maximum-firepower shot visually without assuming 17.28 was the range in km, and it came out as somewhere around 5km if I'm remembering correctly. Does anyone know which thread that was? I've been trying to find it using search but it's not been working.

[takemeout_totheblack]

...So, uh, about that durasteel! Pretty tough stuff, eh?
Vehicle grade is strong enough to withstand the kind of shit thrown around on a star wars battle field, but not quite up to star ship grade snuff, if it was it would sink into the ground due to 'neutronium'. Do AT-ATs have a grade-up armor? is that why they can take the kind of punishment that they can?

[Literally Hitler]

Here is a long detailed and highly insightful post of my analysis of star wars weapons using mathematics and from the perspective of the individuals that designed them.



POW! Let's try to ramp that up!



BAM! Nice going crew! What's our stock on squibs? 24 crates left? We're still under budget! RADICAL!



FRICKING AWESOME! Didjall see that! KABOOM! Let's keep the shot rolling, the good guys got their turn, it's now the baddie's ball.



BOOM! Right next to that poor extra! He's gonna have a backful of shrapnel to pick out later!



OW! Right in the nads! Wait, were were meant to be hitting armor or shields? I forget. Meh, let's make our fans rationalise it later.



HELL YEAH! Gooo Luuukkkee! I can't believe I'm doing this! Remember how my parents told me majoring in film would be a waste of time, I should go to engineering school? Well screw you dad! I'm having the time of my life, and I'm getting paid for it! Fuck yeah!

[Lagmonster]

On this board, "necromancy" means posting in threads that have been unattended for more than a month.

Also on this board, "spammy bullshit" means posting smarmy crap anywhere.

Congratulations, you did both. Please don't do either again.