Roundtable: Why are EU TIE pilots so stupid?

[Kuja]

In the Battle of Brentaal, Rogue Squadron lost two of its pilots with Janson and Ibtisam unable to fight since their fighters had been shot down earlier. The first pilot loss was due to a TIE Fighter and not the 181st squadron. When the 181st came in, Rogue Squadron was getting the better part of the exchange, only losing one more pilot and Wedge also managed to beat Fel. Had the Y-Wing not ionized Fel's interceptor, Wedge would have probably been able to eventually beat Fel since he had already known that Fel had learned his usual moves.

Damn, my bad. I guess the funeral scene threw me off.

[Andras]

But the Empire wouldn't have adopted the TIE Fighter had it not met some performance standards.

The TIE was a great fighter, when it was introduced. It worked fine agaisnt fighters like the Z95 and the Ywing. The X-Wing represented a huge step forward that the TIE couldn't match.

For an analogy, think of the ME109 vs early war fighters and then after the Mustang and late mark Spitfires were introduced. The Germans introduced the FW190( Avenger) and the jets(Defender) but they didn't have the numbers to make a difference.

Doctrine, in this case, overruled change and common sense.

[SirNitram]

Though the real answer is obviously shitty writers, I came up with an in-universe explanation for my own writings. To think up new, innovative tactics and challenge the status quo is a major taboo, so those that do such are shipped to shitty assignments. The bottum of the barrel was the ISD Merciless, home of Ceriss Kanos... Hidden Jedi Knight and TIE Ace with more than 300 enemy craft to his name(Note I say craft, not kills. He rarely killed his opponents, preferring to surgically rip their engines off their craft and force them down).

So, ironically, the most loathed and detested Wing in the Navy was the best of the best.

[Illuminatus Primus]

In-universe:

The best TIE pilots are shifted off to Core World, Imperial Navy (as opposed to Imperial Starfleet), or sensitive campaigns. Shitty TIE pilots and exiled commanders find themselves wallowing about in the exact same Outer Rim shitholes Rebels use.

By the era of Stackpole's novels a large majority of the Imperial military has been annhiliated or recalled to the Deep Core.

Conscripts and washouts replace dead TIE pilots and Army troopers, declining the quality of both. Many of the Imperial stormtrooper training worlds have probably been converted to churn out loads of Army conscripts instead of superbly-trained and well-indoctrinated volunteer stormies, and the cloning facilities that supplied clone stormies have been cut off in the Deep Core.

The Rogue Squadron books, which are the ones most guilty of this, take place during and after the fall of Coruscant. The Empire has lost many of it's training academies and veteran pilots, so they have to start over again and recruit green squadrons, since they weren't many true TIE vets left over from the bulk of the fighting.

Coruscant is what, a couple of months after Endor? No way the Empire could
lose so many pilots in that short a time frame. Now, by the Thrawn Trilogy,
they're screwed, and have to recruit, yes, but the X-Wing books are set
in a time period where the Empire is still strong, and has massive reserves...

This is easily 3 years + past Endor.

The New Republic is just now really starting to launch a true campiagn into the heart of what is left of the Empire proper.

They launched assaults on some warlords, Outer Rim holdouts, and a few incursions into the Imperial heartland like Brentaal, and the writing was on the wall to the intelligent Imperial power players. One Grand Admiral defected, the Imperial Grand Vizier attempted to negotiate a surrender. A cabal of Imperials wanted to negotiate a true constitutional monarchy and put a niece of Palpatine's on the throne.

For three years, the Empire has disintegrated. Warlords broke off abound, countless systems and key sectors flocked to the New Republic banner or under that of the local strongman. If you look at the OT calcs, and you look at the X-Wing series and other publications of that era, you see there was a massive loss of materiel and personnel. The Empire itself was torn amongst squabbling members of Palpatine's inner cadre and the mis- and often undirected fleets became bogged down in conflict with defectors and renegades and warlords while New Republic, relatively unmolested, consolidated it's power base in the Outer and Mid Rims and launched a massive military build-up.

Finally the warlords began to settle into isolationist and jealously guarded private kingdoms. Finally the exhausted Empire consolidated its remnants and cut its losses, but by now the New Republic was capable of challenging its power. The Empire had easily lost at the very least half its strength by the Rogue Squadron period. And much of the remaining forces were withdrawn to power bases like Bilbringi and Thyferra and Yaga Minor and secretly, by the resurrected Palpatine, to the Deep Core. The Empire attempted to replace these losses with conscripts and greens and washouts. Often these troops and men were sent to the frontier, the place that Isard and the Moffs and aristocracy cared least about. And also to most likely route of the New Republic offensive-to-come.

[Lord Pounder]

By the time of the X-Wing books the galaxy is devided into 3 parts. There ate the Rebels who control IIRC 1/4 of the Galaxy, the Imperials who control 1/2 and the rest are independant playing both ends against the middle. You don't go from a terrorist force to controling 1/4 of the galaxy in just a fe months. To set up the a goverment and woo these planets takes more than a few months Shep.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Inconsistency is always an option, with zero tolerance not being applied to those pilots actually demonstrating real talent and potential.


Also, I have the sneaking suspicion that the Empire's fighter pilot forces, especially later on, may operate on the same principle as WW2 Soviet fighter pilots: If you have an ace pilot, you pack as many expendable green pilots around the ace with orders to protect the ace who actually does the killing. Naturally, you lose green pilots by the bucketload, but the proven resources that aces represent are preserved. It would also be a potential explanation for the incongruity of Vader's fighter in ANH having two wingmen. A formation with one leader and two wingmen only really makes sense if the wingmen are there primarily to serve as ablative armor for the leader. Normal Imperial doctrine appears to use a more conventional arrangement of 2 fighters per element and 2 elements per flight, with wingmen following the lead of their leaders.

That makes sense, other than to point out that in fact, the 3-man Vic could also be called the "conventional" formation. It was used all the way up to WWII, when some people finally decided that the increasing ability of fighters made this tactic obsolescent, and switched to 2 man teams used more flexibly. Now the 3-man Vic is considered less flexible, but is a way to keep newbie pilots from making too many irrevocable mistakes.

Or so goes the theory, IIRC

[Keevan_Colton]

Not if you're playing as the X Wing.

Only Z-95 and Tie Bombers are worse than X-Wings in XvT.
Simply look at the stats of the X-Wing in XvT.
All imperial crafts are more manuverable.
Their guns are bady placed.
They are big targets.
They can't be equiped with a beam weapon.

A Y/A/B-Wing is always a better choice for a rebel pilot.

It comes down to pilot skill....and quad linked lasers will punch a hole in most things....its just a matter of picking your shots and manouvering well.....
Y-Wings are ungainly bricks with materials designed to attract enemy fire like a magnet....
As regards the 181st v. Rogues I've some of the comics here that cover it....

[irishmick79]

I think you can also mention high defection rates as a possible reason why the quality of TIE pilots dropped so drastically after Endor. A lot of the TIE vets were probably smart customers who fanatically believed in the emperor, and served the Empire because of him. After the death of the Emperor, would it not be reasonable to guess that alot of pilots might have simply lost their reason to fight for the empire? The smarter ones would have seen the writing on the wall, and could have just up and left for more lucerative and desirable opportunites. The attrition rate for those who stayed would have gone up some if alot of vets simply left, because the problem of recruitment would have been made that much worse.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Mercenaries and criminals.

[Darth Yoshi]

NITPICK: Iggy, it was the 128th.

It's possible that the EU is simply docudrama of some sort done by the NR. If this is the case, then of course the Imps will be depicted as dumber than the NR. If not, then chalk it up to inexperience among the TIE pilots, since the TIE ranks have a far greater rate of attrition than the Rebel ranks.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's possible that the EU is simply docudrama of some sort done by the NR. If this is the case, then of course the Imps will be depicted as dumber than the NR. If not, then chalk it up to inexperience among the TIE pilots, since the TIE ranks have a far greater rate of attrition than the Rebel ranks.

While it works as an excuse against unresearched source materials, esp. those written from an in-universe perspective, you cannot turn off suspension of disbelief at will.

I believe my fix works best, esp. since the greatest instances of these complaints are associate with that time period.

[Thunderfire]

For an analogy, think of the ME109 vs early war fighters and then after the Mustang and late mark Spitfires were introduced. The Germans introduced the FW190( Avenger) and the jets(Defender) but they didn't have the numbers to make a difference.

The Me109 is a bad example. The K4 is as good as the mustang and the late
mark spitfires. The Zero or some other light weight japanese fighter is a better
example. The Fw190 is a heavier aircraft. It is better suited for intercepting
bombers and attacking ground target. The mustang would have failed horribly
in the role of the Me109.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Inconsistency is always an option, with zero tolerance not being applied to those pilots actually demonstrating real talent and potential.

Also, *snip my own stuff*

That makes sense, other than to point out that in fact, the 3-man Vic could also be called the "conventional" formation. It was used all the way up to WWII, when some people finally decided that the increasing ability of fighters made this tactic obsolescent, and switched to 2 man teams used more flexibly. Now the 3-man Vic is considered less flexible, but is a way to keep newbie pilots from making too many irrevocable mistakes.

Or so goes the theory, IIRC

That does match my recollection closely enough.

The fact that the official standard disposition of fighters involves elements of two fighters is what makes it unlikely that the trios are a standard formation except for situations where the leader simply must be protected, even at the cost of losing one or both wingmen. Given fighters that are cheap to produce, a limited pool of experienced pilots and a nearly unlimited number of conscript pilots, the trios make sense. The experienced leader will be protected by the wingmen, even if they are just there to draw fire away from the leader, and a few lucky and talented wingmen will survive and eventually get to play leader themselves.

The thing is that, except for its role in protecting highly placed personages like Vader, the three-man formation would be inefficient. Effectively, an ISD would have its number of available fighter and bomber elements reduced from 36 to 24.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Yup, in the SW context you are right. But in fact...

In the standard two-man team with more flexible tactics, both fighters could play a role, so you are employing 72 little fighters in 36 coordinated teams (hopefully they've worked together long enough to be coordinated and mutually supportive.) The net effect is more than 72 "single" fighters if you do it right.

The three-man Vic plus welded wing turns 72 fighters into 24 really big fighters

[Typhonis 1]

Remeber we only saw TWO fighter lost to gunfire at the Battle of Yavin in ANH the other Rebel fighters were downed by 20 tie fighters pls Vaders and he seemed to be guaring the exust vent

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I actually suspect that fighter attrition may be very high in galactic combat. At least in the movies we saw it relatively easy to destroy fighters even with fighter weapons; against flak and lighter anti-fighter weaponry on capital ships the rate of attrition would be murderous.

Considering what it has been historically in conditions you'd almost have to say were better for the craft and men - That is to say, WWI aerial combat - I wouldn't be surprised if the average life expectancy of a fighter pilot was measured in days. People like Wedge are focused on simply because they are exceptional. The reason you can have an entire squadron of them is likewise simply because you have a lot of fighters in fleets the size we're talking about.