The Imperial symbol

[Apollonius]

It's very elegant and all, but... there's one thing about it that has bothered me for years.
Did you notice that, in the films, it only appears on the uniforms of the lowest-ranking enlisted personnel, and only on the second Death Star? It's not emblazoned on the stormtrooper's armour, nor etched on the data disk of the officer's hats, nor on or in any of the star destroyers, nor anywhere else throughout the Original Trilogy, except on the second Death Star.
I suspect that it was originally supposed to be merely the unit patch of the Death Star personnel, just like modern militaries wear shoulder patches to show their belonging to a particular unit. It only stands for the Death Star itself, its six rays symbolising the partial rays of the primary weapon, and only afterwards was it retconned into standing for the Empire as a whole.
When you think of it, wouldn't the Imperials want to mount their symbol on as many surfaces and items of clothing as possible, like all the other fascists in history? After all, uqibuitousness of state insignia is one of the more obvious outward characteristics of totalitarianism. And accordingly, once it had been retroactively declared the Imperial Symbol, it really became ubiquitous in the EU, despite it being rather obscure in the OT.
Am I onto something here?

[Metahive]

The imperial crest isn't all that elegant, it's actually a rather clunky and awkward symbol. Compare it to other symbols of authoritarian governments, the swastika, the SS runes and the hammer and sickle. They were simple, memorable and easy to reproduce. The imperial "cogwheel" in contrast needs considerable effort to be drawn recognizably and whatever symbolism it contains is rather obscure. Add to that that it is just a slightly altered version of the Galactic Republic's crest and I can see why the Empire uses it only sparingly, it's just a token of continuity with the old regime.

[Imperial528]

I think the reason why the crest wasn't used very often in the movies is that, when you think about it, the very instruments of destruction (Storm troopers, ISDs, AT-ATs, etc) which the Empire uses to enforce its rule on the galaxy are symbols of imperial might themselves, so there's not much reason to even put symbols on Imperial forces, since they are so immediately and easily recognizable.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I rather like the idea (and good observation; I never knew it was in the movies at all!). The problem lies in why the only example of a unit patch seen would be for a unit whose very existence should be kept top secret?

[Havok]

I'm assuming the TIE Fighter pilots are officers. They have it on their helmets.

AT-AT drivers in Empire have it on their helmets, pretty much negating the idea that it is a Death Star patch.

The imperial crest isn't all that elegant, it's actually a rather clunky and awkward symbol. Compare it to other symbols of authoritarian governments, the swastika, the SS runes and the hammer and sickle. They were simple, memorable and easy to reproduce. The imperial "cogwheel" in contrast needs considerable effort to be drawn recognizably and whatever symbolism it contains is rather obscure. Add to that that it is just a slightly altered version of the Galactic Republic's crest and I can see why the Empire uses it only sparingly, it's just a token of continuity with the old regime.

Yeah, I'm sure the Imperial Drawing Corp complains about how hard it is to reproduce by hand on the BILLIONS of Imperial troops, which is why they don't use it often.

This is the dumbest reason offered for this.

[Elheru Aran]

Somehow, I think Star Wars has mastered the esoteric technology known by the mystic term 'stencils'. Difficulty of reproduction does *not* wash.

The notion that the Empire uses other symbols to represent itself rather than the perhaps overly-derivative insignia holds the most water, IMO.

As far as that goes, I've wondered on occasion if any significance has been attached to it in any way beside "this is the Empire's tag". I know the Rebel logo is supposed to be a phoenix...

[Ritterin Sophia]

To answer your question the Imperial Crest is based on the Galactic Roundel that was lifted from the Bendu monks, it represents how the Force unites all the Galaxy as one. Which is quite appropriate as Palpatine's ultimate goal was to unite the entire Galaxy under the veil of the dark side.

[Metahive]

Yeah, I'm sure the Imperial Drawing Corp complains about how hard it is to reproduce by hand on the BILLIONS of Imperial troops, which is why they don't use it often.

This is the dumbest reason offered for this.

I phrased that poorly and apologize. I didn't mean hard to reproduce for the imperial logistics bureau or whatever fictional organization is in charge of producing uniforms in universe, I was mainly expressing my own frustration to replicate that symbol back in my youth when my SW enthusiasm was it its highest but I had yet no access to an electronic template. So yeah, sorry for the sudden veer to out of universe.

To answer your question the Imperial Crest is based on the Galactic Roundel that was lifted from the Bendu monks, it represents how the Force unites all the Galaxy as one. Which is quite appropriate as Palpatine's ultimate goal was to unite the entire Galaxy under the veil of the dark side.

Without someone explaining it I'd argue that this symbolism is lost to people looking at it for the first time (OOU). Considering also that the Force was regarded as an ancient superstition by ABY 0 I'm doubtful that Palpatine intended Joe Q. Public to recognize it as such. All the more reason to use it sparingly.

[Apollonius]

I'm assuming the TIE Fighter pilots are officers. They have it on their helmets.

AT-AT drivers in Empire have it on their helmets, pretty much negating the idea that it is a Death Star patch.

You're right, I never noticed that.
Damn, there goes my conspiracy theory.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I wonder if there is some significance to the OR roundel having 8 spokes and the Empire's having 6. Maybe it's a subtle way of reminding people "Yup, we're based on the old guys with a couple of things removed."

[Havok]

I wonder if there is some significance to the OR roundel having 8 spokes and the Empire's having 6. Maybe it's a subtle way of reminding people "Yup, we're based on the old guys with a couple of things removed."

Basically.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Is that in or out-universe though?

I mean, the two designs are clearly related out of universe and are intended for that "we're kinda the same but different" feel, but does that still work as an in-universe explanation?

[StarSword]

Is that in or out-universe though?

I mean, the two designs are clearly related out of universe and are intended for that "we're kinda the same but different" feel, but does that still work as an in-universe explanation?

It works for the Alliance Starbird, which I believe is a variation on the insignia of the Jedi Order (TFU notwithstanding). What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Patroklos]

While this does not in any way mean you do not need an overarching symbol at all, the simply fact that the Empire is the only "nation" of its type in the galaxy period probably removes a lot of the reason to differentiate your soldiers from others.

Sure there were thousands of dominians, kingdoms, corporate states and every other political entity under the son nominally independant to some degree in the galaxy, but all of them were either subject to or integrated into the Empire to some degree. There was no entity in the same category of the Empire to require differentiation.

If you look at the US military most of our uniforms do not have any national identifying symbols on them. At most you will find a service insignia. Where you do find things like American flags or what not are on combat uniforms and combat vehicles, where we are required by international law to have clear national identification. The Empire has no equivalent requirement.

[Metahive]

I wonder if there is some significance to the OR roundel having 8 spokes and the Empire's having 6. Maybe it's a subtle way of reminding people "Yup, we're based on the old guys with a couple of things removed."

Removing two of the spokes happened in the late phase of the Clone War, it isn't an alteration made specifically for the imperial crest.

Anakin's fighter in ROTS sports this:


The six-spoked crest can be faintly seen to the left of R2-D2


BTW, the Bendu symbol bears a close resemblance to the buddhist dharmachakra, representing the noble 8-fold path to enlightenment. I think it isn't wrong to presume that this is where Lucas or his designers got the inspiration from.

[Executor32]

It could be a Palpatinian variation on the standard roundel, methinks. Palpatine is rather close to Anakin, so if it was Palpatine's personal version of the roundel, Anakin may have had it put on his fighter in place of the standard in order to honor him or something. Seeing as every other appearance in RotS is the eight-spoked version, it's at least possible that it was something personal to Anakin. Changing officially from the eight-spoked standard Republic roundel to a further refinement of his six-spoked version could be Palpatine's way of saying, "I'm the Emperor, bitches, this shit is officially mine now!". Or something like that, anyway.

[Metahive]

Interesting theory but unlikely, Obi Wan's fighter sports the same six-spoke roundel.



It could be that the six-spoke roundel was used for Jedi starfighters and Palpatine's annexation of it intended as a sign of his triumph over the order.

OOU of course it might be a simple production error.

[Executor32]

Er, no:

[Batman]

Blimey. I never noticed those.

[StarSword]

Looks to me like Obi-wan's fighter has the six-spoked version in Metahive's screengrab, and the eight-spoked in Executor32's.

Yeah, that looks like a texturing fuckup.

[Metahive]

So it's a production error of some kind. Of course, if we go by the rules of canon fundamentalism it has to be explained why the symbol changed from one moment to the other. Mystical force foreshadowing perhaps?

[Darth Yoshi]

The 6 version was a stick-on decal covering up the older version. Unfortunately the company in charge of producing the decals was lowest bid, and their products are predictably crappy. In the heat of battle, the decal peeled off, revealing behind the original emblem. *nods sagely*

[Executor32]

Metahive's isn't a screengrab, though, it's from the Revenge of the Sith Activity Center. As far as the actual film goes, Obi-Wan's fighter always bears the eight-spoked standard roundel.

[Metahive]

Are you sure it's always 8-spoked in the movie? Looks like it's time to break out ye olde ROTS DVDs. I wish I had the blu-rays...