Palpatine vs Stupidity

[Havok]

It's in one of the commentaries of the DVDs. Can't remember which one.
I'm sure Lucas saw it, but then there was that pesky Luke guy that both Yoda and The Emperor proclaim a Jedi. Oops.

[Luke Skywalker]

Well yes, going after Palpatine together would have been the smart move. It wouldn't necessarily have worked out though - Palpatine would probably kill Kenobi just after he blasted Yoda with Force Lightning at the beginning of their encounter.

He was too fucking arrogant to capitalize on his advantage to kill Yoda, so it is difficult to believe that he would be so quick to get rid of Kenobi.

He DID manage to kill three Jedi Masters within a few seconds, and they were accompanied by Mace Windu (who, unlike Yoda, actually was a match for Palpatine) - and it didn't do them much good either.

Firstly, Yoda was a match for the Dark Lord of the Sith. He was actually beating Palpatine, and would have one had he not been an arrogant snob.

Mace Windu, on the other hand, was not a match for Sidious at the start of their fight, and, as the RotS novelization indicates, he no idea what the fuck was going on until he sunk deeper into Vaapad. If Fisto had not been there, it is possible that Windu would have dropped soon after.

However, the objective of Yoda and Obi-Wan was to take down the Sith. In order to do that, they had to take them down simultaneously, otherwise the other one would slip back into the shadows and elude them, then train a new apprentice and the whole thing would start all over again.

Vader at this point was a snobbing idiot. The only reason why Bane's order survived for so long is that Bane was a cunning genius, and everybody thought that he had died. Without this, once they defeat Sidious, they can easily enough hunt down Vader. Sidious is the greater immediate threat, having greater political and raw power.

At least that's what they thought - because that was the Modus Operandi of the Sith for the last thousand years. They focussed to much on the Sith as Sith, rather than considering the political and mundane power Palpatine had. They saw him as "the Sith Lord" rather than "the guy who has political control over the whole Galaxy". Their fault was in their perspective.

They didn't consider Palpatine as the Sith Lord for the same reason - they thought of the Sith as secret manipulators. Palpatine on the other hand was a highly public figure with plenty of benevolent policies, lot's of charisma etc. - all attributes they did not consider Sith-attributes.
Or in other words, the Jedi were fighting the Sith of the last war, not the current one.

But Windu commented that "the dark side of the Force surrounds the chancellor". Hell, according to the novel excerpt provided, Yoda already suspected that Chancellor was the dark lord (which would be supported by Windu stating that "our worst fears have been realized"). They know that Dooku is a sith lord. They know that he recruited Jango Fett, the template for the clone army. They also should have figured out by now that Dooku is the one who deleted Kamino from the archives. There is no excuse for such mind boggingly supidity.

[Serafina]

Firstly, Yoda was a match for the Dark Lord of the Sith. He was actually beating Palpatine, and would have one had he not been an arrogant snob.

No, he wasn't. Palpatine WON, and not by a small margin either - he certainly wasn't exhausted after the fight, while Yoda clearly was.

Mace Windu, on the other hand, was not a match for Sidious at the start of their fight, and, as the RotS novelization indicates, he no idea what the fuck was going on until he sunk deeper into Vaapad. If Fisto had not been there, it is possible that Windu would have dropped soon after.

Mace Windu actually WON that fight (unless you believe Palpatine feigned defeat), and the only reason he didn't kill Palpatine was the intervention of Anakin.

But Windu commented that "the dark side of the Force surrounds the chancellor". Hell, according to the novel excerpt provided, Yoda already suspected that Chancellor was the dark lord (which would be supported by Windu stating that "our worst fears have been realized"). They know that Dooku is a sith lord. They know that he recruited Jango Fett, the template for the clone army. They also should have figured out by now that Dooku is the one who deleted Kamino from the archives. There is no excuse for such mind boggingly supidity.

And "surrounds the chancelor" automatically means that he, personally, is the Sith Lord - as opposed to being manipulated by him?
And since i obviously have to state the obvious: suspicion doesn't equal proof, or even certainty. What tells you that they didn't investigate the Chancelor and didn't find any further evidence?

Oh, and how the hell does "Dooku deleted Kamino" equal "Palpatine is the Sith Lord"?? Heck, Dooku was the much more obvious candidate, and certainly skilled enough to be a Sith Lord in his own right.

Vader at this point was a snobbing idiot. The only reason why Bane's order survived for so long is that Bane was a cunning genius, and everybody thought that he had died. Without this, once they defeat Sidious, they can easily enough hunt down Vader. Sidious is the greater immediate threat, having greater political and raw power.

Of course he is the greater immediate threat. Duh.
You're still failing to see this from the Jedis perspective. In the past, when either the Master or the Apprentice of the Sith was killed, the other escaped and continued the Sith order. Hence, it was vital to take down simultaneously.
But hey, the Sith just managed to kill most of the Jedi and take over the Republic. Let's not take the only approach we know to work and try something new instead!


To be clear, Obi-Wan and Yoda SHOULD have gone after Palpatine first. You and me know that, because we have information from both sides (we know the state of mind Anakin was in, we know that he hasn't been trained for a long time by Palpatine etc.). Based on the information Obi-Yoda had, their decision was understandable.

[Bakustra]

It's in one of the commentaries of the DVDs. Can't remember which one.
I'm sure Lucas saw it, but then there was that pesky Luke guy that both Yoda and The Emperor proclaim a Jedi. Oops.

You mean the Luke Skywalker who, even with just the OT, rejects the Jedi dogma of detachment and appears to actually synthesize the light and dark sides at the end of ROTJ? Luke as of the end of the movies has broken with Jedi orthodoxy, and that breaking was the key to his final triumph. Anakin still destroys the old order of Jedi and Sith in the course of the movies (or, rather, destroys the order of Sith and the last of the old Jedi dies), and so even if Luke considers himself a Jedi, he is distinguishable from the old order of the Jedi as it is presented in the films.

[Luke Skywalker]

No, he wasn't. Palpatine WON, and not by a small margin either - he certainly wasn't exhausted after the fight, while Yoda clearly was.

When Yoda flings the senate pod back at Palpatine, and the sith loses his line of sight, Sidious has a look of obvious concern on his face. He does not do the obvious and ignite his lightsaber to take a fighting stance. The implication, which, IIRC, was in the original RotS draft/script, is that Yoda disarmed Sidious and won the lightsaber duel. It certainly fits the coreography of the fight, when Yoda is moving far faster than Sidious. It also fits with the fact that Palpatine has not likely practiced his saber skills in 13 years.

Also, during their Force lightning stand off, Yoda won. From what we can tell from the fighters' facial expressions, Sidious is overwhelming Yoda, yet Yoda gets his act together and ends up overpowering Sidious's lightning. Yoda just happened to be closer to the edge, and was smaller.

Now as to the argument that Yoda was exhausted after the battle while Palpatine was not, what evidence is there to support this? Yes, Yoda looked weary, but it looked to be as much of an emotional weariness, knowing that "failed, I have", rather than being physically exhausted. And just because Palpatine was laughing manically doesn't mean that he was not exhausted as well; the bastard laughs no matter what is going on.

Yet it does make sense that Palpatine's stamina would be greater than the almost 900 year old master. Although Palpatine's possession of the high ground throughout the fight meant that Yoda had to move and perform acrobatics far more often, thus exerting more energy in the long run.

Mace Windu actually WON that fight (unless you believe Palpatine feigned defeat), and the only reason he didn't kill Palpatine was the intervention of Anakin.

Yes, he did. But the RotS novelization describes this as a result of Vaapad's superconducting loop (which he had not sunk into at the beginning of the fight), which merely made them equals. Shatterpoint gave Windu the advantage. In terms of raw Force power, Palpatine is noticeably more powerful than the former Grandmaster.

And "surrounds the chancelor" automatically means that he, personally, is the Sith Lord - as opposed to being manipulated by him?

It does not "automatically" mean anything. However, it does make Palpatine one of the leading suspects, yet the Jedi are caught completely unawares of the revelation, and obviously had no contingency plan whatsover in the case that their "worst fears" are realized. Other than to charge in with five Masters and never warn anyone beforehand.

And since i obviously have to state the obvious: suspicion doesn't equal proof, or even certainty. What tells you that they didn't investigate the Chancelor and didn't find any further evidence?

Because if they investigated Palpatine, they could have taken his midichlorian count. If he resists, then you have even more evidence that he is hiding something.

Face it; we all had it figured out that Palpatine was Darth Sidious by TPM, just going by evidence from the films. And the only time we ever see Chancellor Palpatine is when he is talking to the protagonists. Granted, we may have the advantage of hindsight, but this is partially given to the Jedi by Dooku (for absolutely no reason, mind you) in AotC.

Oh, and how the hell does "Dooku deleted Kamino" equal "Palpatine is the Sith Lord"?? Heck, Dooku was the much more obvious candidate, and certainly skilled enough to be a Sith Lord in his own right.

Because Dooku only left the Jedi Order after Maul killed Qui Gon. So he cannot be the master.

The Jedi know that the Senate is under control of the Sith; they may have only partially believed Dooku in AotC, yet by RotS they would have had to have been utter morons to fail to recognize that the Senate is mysteriously being jacked up.

And they know that the suspicious clone army (ordered by a master who was killed before then) hired the same person who was also hired by Dooku. And Dooku deleted Kamino from the Archives, which would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Dooku (the apprentice of the dark lord of the sith that is manipulating the Senate) knew about the army! It does not take a Council of allegedly wise superhumans to draw a conclusion from this.

Of course he is the greater immediate threat. Duh.

So they should go after him first. Duh.

You're still failing to see this from the Jedis perspective. In the past, when either the Master or the Apprentice of the Sith was killed, the other escaped and continued the Sith order. Hence, it was vital to take down simultaneously.
But hey, the Sith just managed to kill most of the Jedi and take over the Republic. Let's not take the only approach we know to work and try something new instead!

To be clear, Obi-Wan and Yoda SHOULD have gone after Palpatine first. You and me know that, because we have information from both sides (we know the state of mind Anakin was in, we know that he hasn't been trained for a long time by Palpatine etc.). Based on the information Obi-Yoda had, their decision was understandable.

Yes, their decision was understandable in the sense that one can at least follow their logic here. It was the wrong decision, even going from the evidence that they had; for one, if Palpatine is killed, the galaxy as a whole is saved from the sith. Yes, Vader may survive and go into hiding, but now the Jedi and democracy may still survive [with a massive PR campaign], and the Jedi can hunt Vader at their leisure, who is now at a disadvantage and has no political savvy. He does not have the advantages that Bane had.

And really, Vader hadn't gotten a chance to actually study the dark side, so it would be very difficult for him to continue the sith line. And if Padme doesn't die during childbirth, maybe the idiot will realize that he had been duped. Nor would he ever abandon Padme to go into hiding, nor would he be smart enough or have the patience to do such a thing. But I suppose that the latter is something that only we as an audience know.

[Metahive]

By that point Anakin had been a Sith for what, a few hours? Hardly sufficient time to learn enough secrets of the Sith to potentially become a vector for Dangerous Forbidden Knowledge (TM) for the next generation, Yoda and Obi-Wan should have figured as much. Better go after Palpatine with combined forces as long as his muscle is chilling on a far away volcano planet. Also, considering how obtuse, naive and obnoxiously proudful Anakin is, I wouldn't be afraid of the possibility of him disappearing into the shadows and elude any pursuit. Just follow the whines!

We know that. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda do.

What don't they know? That Anakin has only been quite recently indoctrinated into the Sith order? Considering he didn't ooze dark side when Obi-Wan departed for Utapau it should be obvious. Anakin just isn't the type of person who could conceal this fact like Palpatine did.

[Tychu]

Because if they investigated Palpatine, they could have taken his midichlorian count. If he resists, then you have even more evidence that he is hiding something.

Face it; we all had it figured out that Palpatine was Darth Sidious by TPM, just going by evidence from the films. And the only time we ever see Chancellor Palpatine is when he is talking to the protagonists. Granted, we may have the advantage of hindsight, but this is partially given to the Jedi by Dooku (for absolutely no reason, mind you) in AotC.

Oh, and how the hell does "Dooku deleted Kamino" equal "Palpatine is the Sith Lord"?? Heck, Dooku was the much more obvious candidate, and certainly skilled enough to be a Sith Lord in his own right.

Because Dooku only left the Jedi Order after Maul killed Qui Gon. So he cannot be the master.

The Jedi know that the Senate is under control of the Sith; they may have only partially believed Dooku in AotC, yet by RotS they would have had to have been utter morons to fail to recognize that the Senate is mysteriously being jacked up.

And they know that the suspicious clone army (ordered by a master who was killed before then) hired the same person who was also hired by Dooku. And Dooku deleted Kamino from the Archives, which would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Dooku (the apprentice of the dark lord of the sith that is manipulating the Senate) knew about the army! It does not take a Council of allegedly wise superhumans to draw a conclusion from this.

Just because someone refuses to be tested of something doesn't mean they are guilty of hiding anything. You need concrete proof to test someone. A woman from California has no right to get a court order to have me (on Long Island) take a DNA test because she thinks I'm her "baby's daddy".

I don't understand your logic on why Dooku cannot be the Sith Lord. Just because he left the order after the mess of TPM doesn't mean that he wasn't thinking about switching sides. You don't wake up one day after a night out with Yoda and the gang and say "I'm now a Sith". In fact the EU has shown that Dooku was disturbed by the way the Jedi handled a Mandalorian rebellion before TPM (Jango Fett: Open Season).

[Luke Skywalker]

Just because someone refuses to be tested of something doesn't mean they are guilty of hiding anything. You need concrete proof to test someone. A woman from California has no right to get a court order to have me (on Long Island) take a DNA test because she thinks I'm her "baby's daddy".

Of course not. The midichlorian test would not be conclusive evidence in the court of law; but it would do well to confirm or suppress their suspicions.

I don't understand your logic on why Dooku cannot be the Sith Lord. Just because he left the order after the mess of TPM doesn't mean that he wasn't thinking about switching sides. You don't wake up one day after a night out with Yoda and the gang and say "I'm now a Sith". In fact the EU has shown that Dooku was disturbed by the way the Jedi handled a Mandalorian rebellion before TPM (Jango Fett: Open Season).

Dooku is a sith lord, but he could not possibly have been the master, because Maul was killed before Dooku turned dark. Unless if the Council thinks that Dooku was evil all along, and was secretly training Maul decades before he left the order, there has to be another "Darth Sidious" that trained Maul.