Vader's powers and abilities (also mind f***ing)

[Jim Raynor]

All this relies on too many assumptions and a possibly faulty analogy between the Republic Senate and the United States. It's hard to come up with a nice, real-world analogue for the Republic Senate, since it includes member worlds, member systems, corporations, and who knows what other types of regional entities. Given the little information we get about local government on Naboo, it seems member worlds keep a significant amount of autonomy - much more than is granted individual states in the US. Your argument also relies on many assumptions about the relationship between the Trade Federation and the Republic. The TF could be a private corporation, but it has Senate represenation so maybe it's closer to something like the US Postal Service. I don't know, but you can't really assume that the Republic should have just immediately launched a military operation against one of its own members (the Trade Federation), when all they knew was that the TF blockaded Naboo over a "trivial" dispute (as Qui-Gon called it.)

We know that the Republic has jurisdiction over both the Trade Federation and the Naboo, and that the Trade Federation's very existence as a business entity is reliant on the Republic's permission. If the trade dispute is truly trivial, then the Trade Federation shouldn't be committing acts of war. They were clearly the aggressors who had escalated things against a world that wanted no fight. That the Republic government tolerates this, as well as jamming and hacking against itself, shows how weak, corrupt, and impotent it is.

I'm not saying they should immediately launch a military attack against its members...but does the Republic even HAVE a military or effective law enforcement? AOTC makes it clear that there wasn't a central army. The Trade Federation clearly fears and respects the Republic's power on some level, but the Republic has no interest in exercising even soft power against it. We have no indication that any federal agency is interested in so much as coming out and saying "Yeah, the Trade Federation are the bad guys here." There should be no commission. A military or police presence should have already been on the scene observing the action. All it takes is one flyby, or one holonet call, to confirm that an invasion had in fact occured. But as we are shown, the Republic tolerate blockades against itself. Because blockades don't just keep people in, they keep others out. Any Republic citizen with a business or personal interest in going to Naboo was screwed by the blockade. The Republic looks awful for not even trying to keep up the appearance of being in control of its own territory.

Once communications were cut off, things got a bit fishy, but that only happened later, after the Jedi arrived.

It's not a bit fishy, it's a hostile act that calls for action all by itself.

From the time communications were cut off to the time Amidala herself arrived on Coruscant was only a few days, I think. So it's not like the Senate had much time to consider the implications of a communications black out.

A few days is not a short period of time, especially when instant real-time communication across the galaxy is common. It makes the news in real ife when China so much as erases some people's blog posts. But to the people who run the Republic Senate, a complete communications shutdown on a member world is no big deal? That doesn't just hurt the Naboo. It's a middle finger to the Republic itself. It's telling the Republic that they have no say in what happens on Naboo.

Real world coalitions like the UN take much longer to reach resolution about much more serious political situations.

The UN is toothless and powerless to do anything in most situations, and I believe that it was a model for how the Republic was supposed to look. In some crises, its decision makers either put up appearances while remaining completely disinterested in action, or they're actively aiding atrocities. The UN has the excuse of being a loose organization of separate countries with competing goals. It doesn't pretend to be an actual unified government, the way the Republic does.

And again, when Amidala finally showed up, the Trade Federation just denied all allegations; so it was her word against their word. Why would she lie, you ask? Who knows - but why should they take the word of one Senator over another, especially when it's unlikely the Trade Federation would ever do something so bold as to invade a planet?

It's the word of the helpless Queen of an unarmed world that has already been blockaded and cyber attacked, versus the word of the guys making all the aggressive moves. But I guess it made sense when you consider who was throwing around more money in the Senate.

Sending a committee to Naboo seems pretty reasonable to me. It's only a few hours at Star Wars travel times.

Why do you ignore the part where it was suggested by the Trade Federation Senator, immediately after telling a blatant lie? He wants it. It's a clear ploy to stall for time. It's very likely that the committee will be full of Trade Fed stooges.

Why do you have such faith in the Republic Senate, which was shown to be weak and incompetent in such an over the top way? Also, nobody, least of which the dysfunctional Republic Senate, is going to pick a few guys and literally send them off to their destination in a few hours. It doesn't matter what the physical transit time is, stuff needs to be set up. Some of my past business trips have taken days or a week to set up and get the proper approvals. That's one guy flying three hours away for something far less important or controversial.

There could be endless debating about who to pick for the committee. It will most likely be corrupt. There will be time taken to set up the details. They could fly there for show and choose not to do anything because the whole thing is a sham. Or the blockade might turn them away, which will probably lead to a "strongly worded" protest by the committee members that amounts to nothing. Or the Trade Federation, which has already boldly asserted that it can decide where Republic citizens and government can go, and who they can talk to, might decide to "escort" the committee around Naboo. Making sure that they only see nice things, or talk to a few people who are being forced to say the right things. Or maybe the committee is actually free to do its job, and they write a report about the invasion back to the Senate. Ever work for a big and stagnant organization? People can take days stressing over something as stupid as the word choices or Power Point formatting. After being submitted, it could be weeks before a memo is so much as read by the guy upstairs in the same building. There is often no guarantee that he will heed its recommendations. Maybe the report makes it back to the Senate, where it finds its way to the bottom of the list of things to do. Assuming they get around to it, its findings will probably lead to more...endless debate. Governments do not work on schedules measured in hours. They work on time tables stretching weeks, months, or years.

I'm not exaggerating about how people can waste time and go through the motions, especially when they don't care to actually do anything. Weren't UN observers sent to Syria like a year ago? Didn't they claim to have a workable peace plan? The truth is that there's no easy solution, Russia and China want the Assad regime to win, and the US doesn't want to get involved in another war.

As for why they don't just call Naboo - that's a good point. They never address the communications blackout at all. But assuming they tried to contact Naboo and failed, I would imagine sending a team there to investigate would be a good start.

A good start would be demanding the Trade Fed to stop the jamming and for both sides to open up and talk now. The Republic is flat out allowing the Trade Fed to hinder its operations and dictate how things will be handled.

You can also ask why the Senate didn't just have the Jedi testify, or check Amidala's computer logs, or whatever - I don't know. We've discussed that before, and it's bizarre to me as well. I never interpreted all of that as the movie attempting to show how fucked up the Senate is;

How do you not interpret that? It's blatant and in your face. I thought the movie went so far that the Republic government was cartoonishly bad.

But considering that ultimately the Senate actually sided with Amidala, and fixed the Trade Federation problem pretty quickly, I don't think it makes much sense to argue that the Senate is really that corrupt and/or ineffective, much less that they're hopelessly beholden to the interests of the Trade Federation.

They didn't side with Padme. They followed along with the Trade Fed senator and allowed her to be called a liar on the Senate floor. The only person who speaks up takes sides with the Trade Fed. Notice how nobody actually speaks up on Naboo's behalf during the Senate scene. The Senators are either corrupt or disinterested. It doesn't prove that they cared about Naboo when they jumped on the bandwagon to vote Valorum out of office. Valorum was said to be unpopular, and that could just have been a bunch of Senators getting rowdy and excited over the opportunity to grab the office of the Chancellor for themselves. Palpatine does not take down the Trade Fed either. Padme literally had to take the law into her own hands, destroy the Trade Fed forces on Naboo, and arrest the Viceroy herself. Palpatine just showed up later to take him into custody. None of this shows that the Republic was effective.

[Havok]

He's no good at politics since his standard operating procedure is to kill his rivals / people he disagrees with.

Bullshit. Go watch the movies again and pay attention to what is said and the context of the situations and please point out where there are "politics" or simple "he disagrees" with Vader present.

In the films, true it's people who fail him who die.

Since the thread wasn't one yours Havok I assumed it was safe to think of things (in the EU) such as Shadows of the Empire where he plans (and succeeds) in killing his main rival Prince Xisor (sp).

And this is my problem with the EU, it is a brain bug that Vader just runs around killing anyone that displeases him, but it is engrained into the minds of everyone from the most casual to the most die hard fan and even the writers. Challenge Vader = Force choke to death. And honestly, I'm OK with Vader being the ultimate badass and completely irredeemable, but it just isn't what we actually see.

We see Vader choke a dude that is directly challenging his power and by proxy, the Emperor's power.
Then we see Vader choke and kill a presumed repeated offender (Ozzel) and we see him choke and kill Captain Needa.
The common link between the latter two is the mission Vader is on, which is a personal one to find his son and possibly use him to overthrow the Emperor. He also could have easily killed Motti (or is it Tague? I always forget.) in the time that he spent choking him. It was more of a "watch it homie" than anything.

What we also see is Vader NOT killing anyone (on his side) when they fail to find the DS plans on the Tantive IV, a pretty important fucking mission. We also see him NOT kill anyone on the DS II when they are behind schedule, also a pretty important task.

And it's ironic that you bring up Xizor as that is one that I am completely OK because it challenges his power base and his position with the Emperor. In hind sight, it makes perfect sense as he saw first hand what happens to Sith Lords that fall out of favor with Palpatine. (Dooku)

So that's why I bitch, EU or no, because as I always say, it is the EU's job to follow what we see in the movies not rewrite it so that the movies become the secondary source if you get my meaning.

[Darth Tedious]

Hav, don't forget the Commander on the Tantive IV, that bloke directly questions Vader's actions and says that what he is doing could be a really shitty idea. Why didn't Vader kill him for talking back, instead of reassuring him that everything was going to be okay?

[Channel72]

Vader might have felt he had more leeway in asserting his authority after the Imperial Senate was disbanded.

[Channel72]

We know that the Republic has jurisdiction over both the Trade Federation and the Naboo, and that the Trade Federation's very existence as a business entity is reliant on the Republic's permission. If the trade dispute is truly trivial, then the Trade Federation shouldn't be committing acts of war. They were clearly the aggressors who had escalated things against a world that wanted no fight. That the Republic government tolerates this, as well as jamming and hacking against itself, shows how weak, corrupt, and impotent it is.

I'm not saying they should immediately launch a military attack against its members...but does the Republic even HAVE a military or effective law enforcement? AOTC makes it clear that there wasn't a central army. The Trade Federation clearly fears and respects the Republic's power on some level, but the Republic has no interest in exercising even soft power against it. We have no indication that any federal agency is interested in so much as coming out and saying "Yeah, the Trade Federation are the bad guys here." There should be no commission. A military or police presence should have already been on the scene observing the action. All it takes is one flyby, or one holonet call, to confirm that an invasion had in fact occured. But as we are shown, the Republic tolerate blockades against itself. Because blockades don't just keep people in, they keep others out. Any Republic citizen with a business or personal interest in going to Naboo was screwed by the blockade. The Republic looks awful for not even trying to keep up the appearance of being in control of its own territory.

Again, all the Senate knows for the first half of the movie is that the TF set up a blockade around Naboo. (I note in many Phantom Menace debates on this board, people tend to easily conflate the blockade with the invasion/communications-black-out. The Senate doesn't know about an invasion for the whole first half of the movie.) And your statement that the Republic government is foolish for tolerating this makes too many assumptions about how things work in Star Wars. Going by just what the movie says, the blockade actually seems to be legal for whatever reason. So the Republic can't just launch a military assault, and the Senate is just trying to resolve the situation via diplomacy. You say you're NOT saying the Republic should launch a military attack, but I'm not sure what exactly you want the Senate to do, given that the actual details of the situation are mostly opaque to the audience. Going just by the movie's own terms, all we know is the TF is annoyed about taxes, they've legally blockaded a planet in protest, and the Senate is trying to figure out a peaceful resolution. None of this screams out "Inefficiency! Beauracracy! Corruption!" to me. This is what it looks like when a movie is trying to hammer home the idea of over-the-top inefficiency and beauracracy.

As for the Republic's army, yeah it's kind of strange - AOTC indicates they have no army, but the TF clearly fears reprisal, so let's just assume the Republic has the ability to throw together a military force from contributing member worlds.

Why do you ignore the part where it was suggested by the Trade Federation Senator, immediately after telling a blatant lie? He wants it. It's a clear ploy to stall for time. It's very likely that the committee will be full of Trade Fed stooges.

Well, because the way it's presented to us, what the Trade Federation is asking seems pretty reasonable. Sure, the audience knows it's just a stalling tactic. But in-Universe, their blockade is legal for some reason, and when Amidala accuses the Trade Federation of actually invading their planet, the TF Senator objects that "there is no proof - you can't condemn us without proof." And since the Queen didn't provide any proof, why is it such an egregious example of corruption and inefficiency that a committee be sent to actually verify the Queen's claims? If the Queen said something like "no Chancellor, I have proof - here's computer logs showing the TF invading our planet and also firing on my ship", then you'd have a strong point. But as is, it looks like the Queen was just manipulated by Palpatine into thinking she had no chance of moving the Senate. And of course, this is incredibly likely since Palpatine's entire goal was to get Valorum kicked out of office and get elected in his place!

Why do you have such faith in the Republic Senate, which was shown to be weak and incompetent in such an over the top way? Also, nobody, least of which the dysfunctional Republic Senate, is going to pick a few guys and literally send them off to their destination in a few hours. It doesn't matter what the physical transit time is, stuff needs to be set up. Some of my past business trips have taken days or a week to set up and get the proper approvals. That's one guy flying three hours away for something far less important or controversial.

I don't think the Republic Senate is portrayed as some sort of perfect, model system of governing - just that it isn't that overly corrupt or inefficient, from what we see. Any large organization is going to be burdened with beauracracy and inefficiency to an extent. The Republic doesn't stand out as an over-the-top, extreme example, like the government depicted in the movie Brazil.

They didn't side with Padme. They followed along with the Trade Fed senator and allowed her to be called a liar on the Senate floor. The only person who speaks up takes sides with the Trade Fed. Notice how nobody actually speaks up on Naboo's behalf during the Senate scene. The Senators are either corrupt or disinterested. It doesn't prove that they cared about Naboo when they jumped on the bandwagon to vote Valorum out of office. Valorum was said to be unpopular, and that could just have been a bunch of Senators getting rowdy and excited over the opportunity to grab the office of the Chancellor for themselves. Palpatine does not take down the Trade Fed either. Padme literally had to take the law into her own hands, destroy the Trade Fed forces on Naboo, and arrest the Viceroy herself. Palpatine just showed up later to take him into custody. None of this shows that the Republic was effective.

Considering that the TF actually fears reprisal from the Republic (since they go out their way to do things legally), I think it's a safe bet to assume that Padme's vigilante effort was totally and completely unnecessary. If she just waited a little bit, Palpatine would have showed up with some kind of force, and presumably arrested Nute Gunray. Padme's vigilatism made it a bit easier for Palpatine to conveniently take Nute into custody, but clearly the Republic must have some ability to enforce its laws, otherwise the TF wouldn't be so cautious and reluctant to use force. So again, the system basically worked. And what's to say that if Valorum wasn't voted out of office, the commission wouldn't have just returned and said "yeah, so it turns out they did invade" - and then maybe Valorum would have just sent a task force or army to Naboo to arrest Nute Gunray. The point is, we don't know.

All in all, the events in the film at best show that (1) Valorum is somewhat of a weak, indecisive man, and Palpatine took advantage of that particular weakness, and (2) Palpatine is a master manipulator who talked Padme into having so little faith in the Republic government, that she didn't even try and convince the Senate that she was telling the truth. Again, none of this shows that the Republic is particularly inefficent or corrupt - (at least not more so than a real-world government is expected to be) - just that Palpatine took advantage of some pre-existing variables to manipulate the situation masterfully.

[Kreller1]

I don't get why Qui-Gon and Obi couldn't have just waltzed into the Senate chambers and said, "This is what we saw on Naboo, you guys take it from here."

[Darth Tedious]

I don't get why Qui-Gon and Obi couldn't have just waltzed into the Senate chambers and said, "This is what we saw on Naboo, you guys take it from here."

Upon arriving at Corusant, Qui-Gon says to Velorum:

I must speak with the Jedi Council immediately. The situation has become much more complicated.

He tells the Jedi council about his run-in with Maul, and about finding Anakin.
By the time he has presented The Chosen One to the Council, the Senate meeting has already been and gone.

Not that this is a valid reason, it just shows how the Jedi are too concerned with Jedi affairs to give one fuck about Naboo (this fits in with the themes of PT perfectly, IMO).


EDIT: This is reaffirmed when the Council tells Qui-Gon to return to Naboo- so he can 'unravel the mystery of the Sith'.

Seriously, not one fuck was given.

[Jim Raynor]

Again, all the Senate knows for the first half of the movie is that the TF set up a blockade around Naboo. (I note in many Phantom Menace debates on this board, people tend to easily conflate the blockade with the invasion/communications-black-out. The Senate doesn't know about an invasion for the whole first half of the movie.)

So a part of their territory literally has acts of war committed against it, and is completely shut out from the surrounding galaxy and government. We see the Senate being jammed out, onscreen. This somehow does not raise any concern with the Senate, who is completely cool with the Trade Federation dictating who they can talk to in their own territory. This is gross negligence at the very least. Palpatine flat out says that Senators have been paid off by the TF, and despite him being the villain he seems to be speaking the truth there.

And your statement that the Republic government is foolish for tolerating this makes too many assumptions about how things work in Star Wars.

We know from the movies that the TF's business exists at the Republic's permission, and that technically the TF can be taken down by the Republic which is why they tiptoe around some things and try to exploit legal loopholes. We know that Padme goes to the Republic Senate with the expectation that they do something, which suggests that it's in their legal power. We know from AOTC that the Republic regards its member worlds possessively, and that those worlds actually have to secede and start a civil war if they don't like the way the Republic does things. This is not a free association of separate states. The Republic is supposed to be a single entity. The autonomy displayed by its subordinate worlds supports the portrayal of the Republic as fractured, weak, and dysfunctional.

Going by just what the movie says, the blockade actually seems to be legal for whatever reason.

The only person who says so is the Trade Federation viceroy. Also, legality is defined by whatever the Senate decides. Neither does legality mean that they have to approve of something, or drag their feet in response.

The Trade Fed commits acts of war against Naboo, and we're flat out told by the omnipotent narrator in the opening text that all the Senate does is "endlessly debate" this. They don't care to take quick action, and their inaction pretty much says they're cool with it. They don't seem to be cool with Padme showing up, after her world had already been beseiged for some time, to simply ask for the Republic to establish some order on the world.

So the Republic can't just launch a military assault, and the Senate is just trying to resolve the situation via diplomacy. You say you're NOT saying the Republic should launch a military attack, but I'm not sure what exactly you want the Senate to do, given that the actual details of the situation are mostly opaque to the audience.

You clearly did not read my post then.

It is not a "military assault" for a someone, anyone associated with the military or law enforcement to already be there. Somebody should already have been there. The crisis should not be micromanaged by a bunch of disconnected politicians at the top. That right there is a sign of an extremely screwed up and inefficient government. There should be people doing their jobs, taking initiative and pushing the government from the bottom. That these people are silent and possibly nonexistent doesn't speak well for the Republic government, at all.

One Republic patrol ship flying over Naboo should have already reported the invasion. If one isn't there then one should be quickly deployed, without needing to go up for a vote before the Senate. Police officers, FBI, etc do not have to ask for Congressional approval in order to do their jobs on a local level. The military conducts operations, especially non-lethal reconnaissance flybys, all the time without needing to ask for such permission. The executive should not be so tightly tied to the Senate either. The set up and power structure in the Republic, where every little thing goes up for debate vote, IS inefficient and unlike anything I can think of in real life.

One verbal demand that the TF stop jamming out the Republic Senate, and allow the Naboo to talk to the Republic Senate could have easily been made. They don't do that.

Going just by the movie's own terms, all we know is the TF is annoyed about taxes, they've legally blockaded a planet in protest, and the Senate is trying to figure out a peaceful resolution. None of this screams out "Inefficiency! Beauracracy! Corruption!" to me.

Because you somehow think it' OK for a government to allow itself to be shut out of its own territory, and you make a black and white false dilemma between doing something and launching an immediate military attack against the TF.

Well, because the way it's presented to us, what the Trade Federation is asking seems pretty reasonable. Sure, the audience knows it's just a stalling tactic. But in-Universe, their blockade is legal for some reason, and when Amidala accuses the Trade Federation of actually invading their planet, the TF Senator objects that "there is no proof - you can't condemn us without proof." And since the Queen didn't provide any proof, why is it such an egregious example of corruption and inefficiency that a committee be sent to actually verify the Queen's claims?

No, it's not reasonable. Padme and the TF senator were not speaking from equal grounds. Padme's world had already been beseiged and shut down for some time, by the Trade Federation which through its actions were already undermining the authority of the Republic itself. The Senators already knew that something wrong was going on in Naboo, and they show absolutely no concern. Instead, they question the victim's integrity.

And again, since you don't seem to get this, but things should not be micromanaged by politicians at the top. How often do you see Congressional committtees personally handling things in real life? How quick or efficient do you think a bunch of pampered VIP politicians are going to do things? Why is there absolutely zero concern that the Republic has no presence or knowledge of what's going on in the Naboo system?

I don't think the Republic Senate is portrayed as some sort of perfect, model system of governing - just that it isn't that overly corrupt or inefficient, from what we see. Any large organization is going to be burdened with beauracracy and inefficiency to an extent. The Republic doesn't stand out as an over-the-top, extreme example,

The Republic as portrayed would be completely incapable of handling any real life situation, just as they are incapable of handling their own matters in the movie. It's a government structure unlike any that I can think of, which is spineless and timid on a level that I've never seen. Again, and this needs to be stressed, they allow the TF to dictate who they can talk to within their own territory. When the subject of investigating a suspect (that has already committed serious acts of aggression) comes up, they do so at the suspect's suggestion, on terms that he suspect dictates.

Considering that the TF actually fears reprisal from the Republic (since they go out their way to do things legally), I think it's a safe bet to assume that Padme's vigilante effort was totally and completely unnecessary.

In a previous post, you actually gave high marks to the Republic government for supposedly taking down the Trade Fed in the movie. It had to be pointed out to you, by me and others, that Padme was the one who took them down. She literally destroyed or captured all Trade Fed forces on her planet. Palpatine showed up later (probably after Padme called him up herself) to take the already-arrested Viceroy into custody. I completely fail to see how this proves that the Republic is not just OK, but effective or responsive.

The Trade Federation feared the Republic's potential power, if they went around blatantly committing crimes without the slightest effort to cover things up or manipulate loopholes. This says absolutely nothing about the Republic's willingness to actually enforce its power, or do anything in the face o TF efforts to stall the process. Also, it was clearly pointed out in the movie that the Trade Fed leaders were cowards. In real life, lots of people may be hesitant to do things that they could probably get away with.

If she just waited a little bit, Palpatine would have showed up with some kind of force, and presumably arrested Nute Gunray.

She didn't know what Palpatine would be able to do. And without her knowledge, Palpatine would've probably milked the situation.

Padme's vigilatism made it a bit easier for Palpatine to conveniently take Nute into custody, but clearly the Republic must have some ability to enforce its laws, otherwise the TF wouldn't be so cautious and reluctant to use force. So again, the system basically worked.

The system "worked" because the Trade Fed leaders displayed reluctance for all of a few seconds in the movie, before proceeding with the invasion and getting their way until their defeat at the end?

And what's to say that if Valorum wasn't voted out of office, the commission wouldn't have just returned and said "yeah, so it turns out they did invade" - and then maybe Valorum would have just sent a task force or army to Naboo to arrest Nute Gunray. The point is, we don't know.

So you think that the commission - which you yourself admitted that the audience is supposed to see as a Trade Fed stalling tactic - is going to be efficient and honest in a way that real life equivalents (such as UN inspectors and monitors) aren't. Are you making the argument that once the report comes in they would "just" send a military force to Naboo and take down the Trade Fed army there? This Republic is unwilling to so much as tell the Trade Fed to stop blockading or jamming themselves out of their own world.

[Kreller1]

I don't get why Qui-Gon and Obi couldn't have just waltzed into the Senate chambers and said, "This is what we saw on Naboo, you guys take it from here."

Upon arriving at Corusant, Qui-Gon says to Velorum:

I must speak with the Jedi Council immediately. The situation has become much more complicated.

He tells the Jedi council about his run-in with Maul, and about finding Anakin.
By the time he has presented The Chosen One to the Council, the Senate meeting has already been and gone.

Not that this is a valid reason, it just shows how the Jedi are too concerned with Jedi affairs to give one fuck about Naboo (this fits in with the themes of PT perfectly, IMO).


EDIT: This is reaffirmed when the Council tells Qui-Gon to return to Naboo- so he can 'unravel the mystery of the Sith'.

Seriously, not one fuck was given.

Right, the Jedi were preoccupied with Maul and Anakin, but they couldn't spare 5 minutes to go testify to the senate to report on their original mission? Heck, all Palpatine or Padme had to say was that they had two reliable, unbiased witnesses, and can we take a short recess while we round them up. I mean, Qui-Gon on board the TF ship said they needed warn the Naboo and contact the Chancellor, so what they saw and reported had *some* weight behind it.

[Darth Tedious]

You would think so, wouldn't you?

But... they didn't. They... just... didn't.

And Qui-Gon is meant to meant to be the 'caring' Jedi.

EDIT: More damning- why didn't Velorum call them in as witnesses?
He was the one who sent them there in the first place.

[Jim Raynor]

The opening text says that the Jedi were sent in secret, suggesting that Valorum did Padme a favor and bypassed the legal process. Which itself is indicative of how screwed up the Republic is, since in real life the president would not be so bogged down that he couldn't send out two of his own agents.

During the Senate scene, Valorum doesn't just fail to make his argument. He actually gives up and decides to go along with what the Trade Fed wants. Palpatine says that Valorum is held hostage by charges of corruption, and even points out the Trade Fed lackey who silences the chancellor.

[Kreller1]

So, you're saying that by sending *ambassadors* that Valorum was breaking the law? That's messed up. I did not read the opening crawl like that, I understood it to mean he sent the Jedi without letting the TF know ahead of time so they could pull some stunt to stall or delay them when they arrived in the system. (Safety inspection scan, boys, power down your ship for a day while we run the scan!) Also remember, the TF guys were surprised to learn that the ambassadors were Jedi, which was another move they hadn't expected, but neither of them mentioned that it was an illegal move. If that were the case, they would have sent the droids in to arrest them without the need to run to momma Sidious for help.

[Darth Tedious]

You might want to watch the film again.

The TF were expecting ambassadors to arrive (they just weren't expecting Jedi ones), which is why when asked for permission to dock, they answered "Of course, as you know, our blockade is perfectly legal."

(Even if they hadn't been expecting anyone, they still could have pulled some sort of stunt on the fly (like, say, blowing up the ship and gassing the ambassadors)

Learning that the ambassadors were Jedi just meant that the TF couldn't pull the wool over their eyes. Which is precisely why Gunray made sure not to deal with the Jedi in person, lest they sense his motivations.

[Broken]

IIRC, the senate debacle was meant to reference Bill Clinton and the troubles he was having with the Republicans in congress. Imagine if that scene was written today, with Obama as the Valorum figure.

[Kreller1]

Right, but what I am saying, DT is that if the mere presence of Jedi as ambassadors was illegal, you can bet the TF boys would be on the phone with Valorum and/or the senate in a heartbeat so they could protest, and request "proper" ambassadors be sent. (Who would then get the run around, or be TF stooges anyway, etc.) They wouldn't have needed to call Sidious to ask how to handle what they knew was an illegal action by the Chancellor.

[Darth Tedious]

Dude, we're actually in agreement here, TBH I'm not convinced that the presence of the Jedi was illegal (that was Raynor's suggestion).
I'm more inclined to believe that Velorum sent them secretly because he didn't want to 'make a scene'.

I take Palpy at his word when he says that Velorum was in the TF's pockets.

Here's what I think might have gone down:
-TF blockade Naboo, Naboo bitch to Velorum
-Velorum says "hay guise, the Naboo are all getting shitty, I'm gonna have to send dudes to talk things out, but I'll keep it on the low-down for you"
-TF say "LOL whatevs, you know this shit's legal bro"
-Jedi arrive, TF shit bricks, meh, we've seen the film
(of course I'm just inferring from the opening crawl here, but that's really all anyone can do until some EU toilet paper comes out with this stuff- it seems to fit with the events we see, though)

[Gunhead]

Dude, we're actually in agreement here, TBH I'm not convinced that the presence of the Jedi was illegal (that was Raynor's suggestion).
I'm more inclined to believe that Velorum sent them secretly because he didn't want to 'make a scene'.

I take Palpy at his word when he says that Velorum was in the TF's pockets.

Here's what I think might have gone down:
-TF blockade Naboo, Naboo bitch to Velorum
-Velorum says "hay guise, the Naboo are all getting shitty, I'm gonna have to send dudes to talk things out, but I'll keep it on the low-down for you"
-TF say "LOL whatevs, you know this shit's legal bro"
-Jedi arrive, TF shit bricks, meh, we've seen the film
(of course I'm just inferring from the opening crawl here, but that's really all anyone can do until some EU toilet paper comes out with this stuff- it seems to fit with the events we see, though)

I always thought the legality of the blockade was in question and that is what Palpy uses to keep the senate bogged down and this is what he refers to later in the movie. This in essence doesn't change a damn thing. TF + supporting factions maintain their blockade is legal, Valorum can't get a passing resolution to say otherwise and this gives the TF defacto right to maintain their blockade till told to back off by the senate. So when the TF guys tell the arriving jedi their blockade is legal, they're just mouth piecing the official TF line. The court option is mentioned in the movie but dismissed off hand for taking even longer but nothing suggest this route was attempted. Then again, this is suggested after the Naboo was invaded which brings up the issue of evidence, again.

I mused for fun and profit about the role of the jedi in the early part of PM. A lot of people do go on about "why the jedi didn't testify on the invasion to the senate?". Lets assume they did, so what? Two guys secretly sent by the Chancellor opposing the TF testify that the TF did in fact invade Naboo. Hell, the Senate didn't believe the head of state of Naboo. Why assume two more guys telling the same story would make a difference? Oh but they're Jedi... that makes their word like gold as evidence... right? Hey if I was a senator I'd totally believe two guys sent without my knowledge to negotiate with the TF, specially if it comes apparent they were working at the behest of the chancellor.. who's backing Naboo in the issue.. nah.. totally reliable. Besides it would totally look great to have already weak chancellor go of on his own behind the back of the senate. It does look great when a political leader shows he has no confidence in the body... that he's leading. This even if, as I believe, he had the legal right to send envoys on behalf of the senate. This it seems was a bit murky. I might remember this wrong, but they were envoys for Valorum in the crawl but TF dudes were happy to welcome envoys of the senate. It's not a big deal anyway really.

-Gunhead

[Knife]

That the original plan Nute Gunray was following was to FORCE Padme to sign a treaty legitimizing the invasion, I'm assuming the TF was white washing the legality of the blockade, let alone the invasion, until they could get a treaty signed, saying "Hey guys, it is ok, see we had a contract to invade them."

[Grumman]

"Hey guys, it is ok, see we had a contract to invade them."

"We did nothing wrong! Look, here's the invoice for a hundred million B1 police droids, to be shipped to the capital of Naboo."

[Channel72]

So a part of their territory literally has acts of war committed against it, and is completely shut out from the surrounding galaxy and government. We see the Senate being jammed out, onscreen. This somehow does not raise any concern with the Senate, who is completely cool with the Trade Federation dictating who they can talk to in their own territory. This is gross negligence at the very least. Palpatine flat out says that Senators have been paid off by the TF, and despite him being the villain he seems to be speaking the truth there.

It's hard to tell if anything Palpatine says about government corruption is an attempt to manipulate Padme into calling for a vote of no confidence, or because the Senate actually is hopelessly corrupt, or both. Since the whole movie is essentially about Palpatine's scheme to obtain the Chancellorship, and since he manipulates just about everyone else, including the Trade Federation, the Separatists, the Jedi, and later on even the Rebels, I think it's a safe bet to assume he's just manipulating Padme here.

Going by just what the movie says, the blockade actually seems to be legal for whatever reason.

The only person who says so is the Trade Federation viceroy. Also, legality is defined by whatever the Senate decides. Neither does legality mean that they have to approve of something, or drag their feet in response.

Real life corporations and even government agencies use legal loopholes all the time to pull off things which are technically legal, but clearly unethical. This is regrettable, but not a sign that a government is hopelessly corrupt.

We keep going back and forth about this, and you keep repeating how outrageous it is that the Senate was just debating after the Trade Federation blatantly blockaded a planet. I'm not saying that the Senate is a model of efficiency - but you're ignoring that ultimately, the system worked. The Senate obviously wasn't that corrupted, otherwise they wouldn't have allowed their new Chancellor to immediately go to Naboo and arrest Nute Gunray. Clearly, Palpatine was just manipulating Padme when he gave the impression it would takes weeks or months for the Senate to resolve the matter - since after he was elected he resolved it in a single day.

So the Republic can't just launch a military assault, and the Senate is just trying to resolve the situation via diplomacy. You say you're NOT saying the Republic should launch a military attack, but I'm not sure what exactly you want the Senate to do, given that the actual details of the situation are mostly opaque to the audience.

You clearly did not read my post then.

It is not a "military assault" for a someone, anyone associated with the military or law enforcement to already be there. Somebody should already have been there. The crisis should not be micromanaged by a bunch of disconnected politicians at the top. That right there is a sign of an extremely screwed up and inefficient government. There should be people doing their jobs, taking initiative and pushing the government from the bottom. That these people are silent and possibly nonexistent doesn't speak well for the Republic government, at all.

One Republic patrol ship flying over Naboo should have already reported the invasion. If one isn't there then one should be quickly deployed, without needing to go up for a vote before the Senate. Police officers, FBI, etc do not have to ask for Congressional approval in order to do their jobs on a local level. The military conducts operations, especially non-lethal reconnaissance flybys, all the time without needing to ask for such permission. The executive should not be so tightly tied to the Senate either. The set up and power structure in the Republic, where every little thing goes up for debate vote, IS inefficient and unlike anything I can think of in real life.

One verbal demand that the TF stop jamming out the Republic Senate, and allow the Naboo to talk to the Republic Senate could have easily been made. They don't do that.

Again, you're assuming that the Republic is comparable to the United States. I don't even think there are Federal law enforcement agencies - each member world is much more autonomous. The only thing close to a federal law enforcement agency is the Jedi themselves, who are obviously very limited. The Republic isn't as cohesive as you seem to think. Yes, in AOTC they went to war to stop member worlds from seceding - but only because thousands or tens of thousands of worlds wanted to secede at once, and they also feared an immediate attack due to the Separatists' enormous military build-up. I doubt the Republic would forcefully stop one or two member worlds from seceding.

The Republic's cohesion is probably something between the UN and the EU - not as loosely associated as the UN, but even less cohesive than the EU, and nowhere near as cohesive as the US. Like the EU, they seem to enforce basic human rights (like anti-slavery laws) throughout member systems, and they have a common currency, but they probably don't interefere much on a planetary level.

No, it's not reasonable. Padme and the TF senator were not speaking from equal grounds. Padme's world had already been beseiged and shut down for some time, by the Trade Federation which through its actions were already undermining the authority of the Republic itself. The Senators already knew that something wrong was going on in Naboo, and they show absolutely no concern. Instead, they question the victim's integrity.

You don't know enough about the situation to make this sort of claim. Did the TF pick Naboo at random, or did they specifically target it for some reason? Did they just pick it because it was an "outlaying star system", and was along one of the disputed trade routes? Yeah, Sidious obviously wanted Naboo to be involved, but perhaps the TF also had some grievance with Naboo which is partly why they agreed to go along with Sidious' plan. They claim their blockade is legal, after all. You keep claiming things like they're interrupting all traffic to Naboo, and shutting off Naboo from the outside world, but the opening crawl just says they've stopped shipments in protest. And that's all the Senate knows until after the Jedi arrive and they cut off communications. In the real world, a power company can shut off electricity in the middle of winter and you have no recourse to the government; a bank can foreclose on your house and you have no recourse to the government. Maybe the TF is closer to a governmental organization like the USPS, or they have certain arrangements with the government when it comes to enforcing trade violations, and they have some legal justification for forcefully stopping all shipments to Naboo. Maybe it's not necessarily clear to the Senate that Naboo is the victim. Again, you don't know - but at least you know that the TF thinks they can convincingly argue that their blockade is legal. To me, the movie tries to convey that the blockade is mostly a trivial problem - until things get more serious when we find out the TF is much more sinister (after they attempt to kill the Jedi and invade the planet - which the Senate doesn't know about.)

And again, since you don't seem to get this, but things should not be micromanaged by politicians at the top. How often do you see Congressional committtees personally handling things in real life? How quick or efficient do you think a bunch of pampered VIP politicians are going to do things? Why is there absolutely zero concern that the Republic has no presence or knowledge of what's going on in the Naboo system?

Probably because member worlds are a lot more autonomous than you think, and the Republic Senate acts mostly to regulate interstellar affairs, rather than planetary affairs. Yes, clearly individual worlds can appeal to the Senate for various reasons, as Amidala did, but it doesn't mean the Republic necessarily has mechanisms to deal with things on a planetary level. They don't even have an official army, apparently.

Considering that the TF actually fears reprisal from the Republic (since they go out their way to do things legally), I think it's a safe bet to assume that Padme's vigilante effort was totally and completely unnecessary.

In a previous post, you actually gave high marks to the Republic government for supposedly taking down the Trade Fed in the movie. It had to be pointed out to you, by me and others, that Padme was the one who took them down. She literally destroyed or captured all Trade Fed forces on her planet. Palpatine showed up later (probably after Padme called him up herself) to take the already-arrested Viceroy into custody. I completely fail to see how this proves that the Republic is not just OK, but effective or responsive.

And in my previous post, I already addressed this: Padme's vigilantism seems to have been largely unnecessary. Whether or not she personally took down the Trade Federation, Palpatine still would have showed up with some sort of force, and presumably tried to arrest Gunray. I think this point is pretty obvious - will you at least admit this? All Padme did was make it more convenient for Palpatine to arrest Gunray.

The system "worked" because the Trade Fed leaders displayed reluctance for all of a few seconds in the movie, before proceeding with the invasion and getting their way until their defeat at the end?

No, the system worked because ultimately the Republic Chancellor just showed up and arrested Nute Gunray for invading Naboo. And whose to say Valorum wouldn't have done the same thing, eventually.

And what's to say that if Valorum wasn't voted out of office, the commission wouldn't have just returned and said "yeah, so it turns out they did invade" - and then maybe Valorum would have just sent a task force or army to Naboo to arrest Nute Gunray. The point is, we don't know.

So you think that the commission - which you yourself admitted that the audience is supposed to see as a Trade Fed stalling tactic - is going to be efficient and honest in a way that real life equivalents (such as UN inspectors and monitors) aren't. Are you making the argument that once the report comes in they would "just" send a military force to Naboo and take down the Trade Fed army there? This Republic is unwilling to so much as tell the Trade Fed to stop blockading or jamming themselves out of their own world.

And yet the new Republic Chancellor (Palpatine) did exactly what you're saying the Republic Senate would never allow due to TF influence and corruption.

Anyway, ultimately we both agree that the whole Senate sequence shows an egregious failure of justice. But where you seem to think this demonstrates how corrupt and ineffective the Republic is, to me it just demonstrates how stupid or incoherent all the main characters are. Padme doesn't even try to present evidence to the Senate, and doesn't even bring up the fact that two Jedi witnessed the invasion. Well, at least we can say she has the excuse of being manipulated by a Sith Lord. But the Jedi just seem to not give a shit at all since they're not even present during the Senate session.

Bottom line: all of your arguments about governmental ineffectiveness and corruption would be a lot more convincing if we actually saw any of the main characters actually try to work with the system in a remotely competent manner.

[Jim Raynor]

Alright, I want to ask a question to everyone else reading this thread, which I thought had been wrapped up about a week ago. Does anyone still actually think that the Republic government was OK, much less good and effective?

It's hard to tell if anything Palpatine says about government corruption is an attempt to manipulate Padme into calling for a vote of no confidence, or because the Senate actually is hopelessly corrupt, or both. Since the whole movie is essentially about Palpatine's scheme to obtain the Chancellorship, and since he manipulates just about everyone else, including the Trade Federation, the Separatists, the Jedi, and later on even the Rebels, I think it's a safe bet to assume he's just manipulating Padme here.

It's not hard to tell at all. Palpatine is manipulating Padme but the movie relentlessly portrays the entire system as bureaucratic, corrupt, and slow.

We keep going back and forth about this, and you keep repeating how outrageous it is that the Senate was just debating after the Trade Federation blatantly blockaded a planet. I'm not saying that the Senate is a model of efficiency - but you're ignoring that ultimately, the system worked.

No, you keep insisting that the system "worked" when it didn't throughout the entire movie.

The Senate obviously wasn't that corrupted, otherwise they wouldn't have allowed their new Chancellor to immediately go to Naboo and arrest Nute Gunray.

There was literally no Trade Federation resistance anymore at that point. Padme literally destroyed or captured every Trade Fed person on her planet. It doesn't prove anything that Palpatine went there afterwards to pick up a guy who was already arrested. That's not even close to impressive - it's the bare minimum that he could've done at that point.

Clearly, Palpatine was just manipulating Padme when he gave the impression it would takes weeks or months for the Senate to resolve the matter - since after he was elected he resolved it in a single day.

Going in to do a simple pick-up after an entire WAR has been fought and won is not resolving anything.

Again, you're assuming that the Republic is comparable to the United States.

I'd rather hold a fictional government to the standard of an actual, functional real life government, then just give them a complete pass for sitting on their hands the entire movie while the security of their citizens, and their very own authority, was repeatedly undermined. You really think that can be chalked up to differences in governing styles? You really think this speaks well of whatever screwed up system the Republic had in place?

The Republic's cohesion is probably something between the UN and the EU - not as loosely associated as the UN, but even less cohesive than the EU, and nowhere near as cohesive as the US. Like the EU, they seem to enforce basic human rights (like anti-slavery laws) throughout member systems, and they have a common currency, but they probably don't interefere much on a planetary level.

In other words, they're a gutless, useless government that can't even speak up when they themselves are blockaded and jammed out of their own world.

You keep claiming things like they're interrupting all traffic to Naboo, and shutting off Naboo from the outside world, but the opening crawl just says they've stopped shipments in protest.

The exact text states that they have stopped "all shipping" to Naboo. If you think that's no big deal, then I don't know what to say.

And that's all the Senate knows until after the Jedi arrive and they cut off communications. In the real world, a power company can shut off electricity in the middle of winter and you have no recourse to the government; a bank can foreclose on your house and you have no recourse to the government. Maybe the TF is closer to a governmental organization like the USPS, or they have certain arrangements with the government when it comes to enforcing trade violations, and they have some legal justification for forcefully stopping all shipments to Naboo.

Really? You keep saying that I'm making "assumptions" as a go-to response to everything (even something as non-controversial as questioning why the Republic is so spineless that it allows itself to be pushed around by the TF), yet you're making far bigger assumptions right here. Assumptions that fly in the face of everything implied in the movie.

The Trade Federation is separate from the Naboo. Both are parts of the Republic, with Senators to represent them. And let's just get this out of the way right now. There is nothing implying that the Trade Federation is a government service of the Republic enforcing tax laws of the central government. They have a "trade franchise" and are doing all of this because they are "greedy," which clearly implies that they have business interest in this. Furthermore, the Chancellor sent "ambassadors" to the Trade Federation to negotiate that they end the blockade. If the Trade Fed was a government service, they would not be negotiated with as if they had any say in the matter - they would simply be ordered to stand down.

You are seriously going out of your way to come up with things to justify the Trade Federation here, when in the movie they were portrayed as simplistic mustache twirling villains looking out for their own financial gain. Nor do your justifications even work. If the Trade Fed is some kind of government agency gone rogue, how is that supposed to support your position that the Republic government was not dysfunctional?

Maybe it's not necessarily clear to the Senate that Naboo is the victim.

Then they're idiots for not recognizing the severity of a complete communications shutdown. Which supports the idea that the Republic government is stupid, corrupt, and broken.

Again, you don't know - but at least you know that the TF thinks they can convincingly argue that their blockade is legal. To me, the movie tries to convey that the blockade is mostly a trivial problem

Opening text: "While the Congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events" (referring to the blockade)

They know what's up. They know the Trade Fed is pushing the limits of what it can do. They know that it's not right. They choose to talk and do nothing.

Probably because member worlds are a lot more autonomous than you think, and the Republic Senate acts mostly to regulate interstellar affairs, rather than planetary affairs. Yes, clearly individual worlds can appeal to the Senate for various reasons, as Amidala did, but it doesn't mean the Republic necessarily has mechanisms to deal with things on a planetary level.

So one group of worlds blockading another world from all shipping is not an "interstellar" affair?

They do have means of enforcing their rule. The Trade Fed is apparently afraid of their potential power. That power goes completely unused, because again, they are useless.

And in my previous post, I already addressed this: Padme's vigilantism seems to have been largely unnecessary.

I love how you word this as "vigilantism." The Queen, the head of state, is not allowed to defend her own world after asking for and failing to receive any help. No, it is completely within not only her legal power, but her duty, to do so.

You keep coming up with strained justifications for what the Trade Fed or the Republic was doing. Yet Padme doing what is expected of her office is somehow wrong.

Whether or not she personally took down the Trade Federation, Palpatine still would have showed up with some sort of force, and presumably tried to arrest Gunray.

"Assumption."

I think this point is pretty obvious - will you at least admit this? All Padme did was make it more convenient for Palpatine to arrest Gunray.

You talk about the "obvious," when the very obvious thing was that the Republic government was disinterested, incompetent, fractured, and weak on a level that NO good, functional government in the world is on. This is not me taking a US-centric view on things and unfairly applying specific American standards to the Republic, because nobody does things like they do. Nobody does things like them because it doesn't work, as was the case in the movie itself. The movie hammers in how useless they are in a very direct and one-dimensional way.

Palpatine's only goal is to attain personal power for himself. He achieved that by the second act, by deposing Valorum. He has no requirement to bring the Trade Fed to justice, and would probably personally benefit by using their continued occupation of Naboo to take other politicians to task. It is a complete assumption to think that Palpatine would've just swooped in and heroically taken care of everything in the space of a few days, had Padme not gone.

No, the system worked because ultimately the Republic Chancellor just showed up and arrested Nute Gunray for invading Naboo. And whose to say Valorum wouldn't have done the same thing, eventually.

Do you not see the difference between simply picking up a guy who's already been arrested, and actually having to deploy police/military forces to do so when he still has an army in place?

And yet the new Republic Chancellor (Palpatine) did exactly what you're saying the Republic Senate would never allow due to TF influence and corruption.

Yeah, such a display of power and assertiveness. Sending a shuttle to pick someone up after the blockade and communications jamming were completely eliminated, and there was no way to deny what all the Naboo were saying.

Anyway, ultimately we both agree that the whole Senate sequence shows an egregious failure of justice. But where you seem to think this demonstrates how corrupt and ineffective the Republic is, to me it just demonstrates how stupid or incoherent all the main characters are. Padme doesn't even try to present evidence to the Senate, and doesn't even bring up the fact that two Jedi witnessed the invasion.

Let's get something clear here. This was not a criminal trial. Nor are criminal trials a quick process either. You can be caught mass murdering people completely red handed, and still not face trial for more than a year. The movie's portrayal of the Republic agrees with this reality, with a line stating that the courts are even slower than the senate is.

You lay blame on Padme, saying that she should've somehow produced evidence of an invasion. OK, let's examine this idea. First off, there is no "evidence" that she could show that could not be easily disputed by a bald faced lie from the Trade Federation. The Trade Fed Senator outright interrputed her and said that there was no invasion going on. Anything she showed could be claimed as a forgery. In the movie, the testimony from the head of state of a completely beseiged and isolated world is not good enough for the Senate to think that maybe Naboo is under attack. That's screwed up.

Real evidence is collected by law enforcement and verified. Law enforcement does not hang up on a 911 call because they only have someone's "word" that there's something wrong happening. The military and intelligence services act on tips, without needing to personally needing to see physical evidence beforehand. Alleged victims are not hung out to dry because THEY can't personally produce evidence on the spot.

Nor is real evidence judged on the spot, which is a a completely ridiculous idea. Do you think every one of the thousands of Senators sitting in that giant auditorium is somehow qualified and able to make a close examination of whatever "evidence" you expect from Padme? This is why evidence is analyzed, cases are made, and trials happen.

All Padme was doing, before she was very quickly cut off, was asking the Republic to help her world. Not attack the Trade Federation, or take it apart, or put its leaders up on formal charges. Her world is Republic territory, and they should have already had an idea about what was going on there. You do not need evidence to dispatch a single patrol ship, as I said before. It's disgraceful that rather than qualified professionals, they decide to send some vague Congressional "committee" at some undisclosed time, because they're so spineless that they wont tell the Trade Fed to simply stop jamming themselves out of Naboo.

BTW, the Senate was so very serious about that "committee" that they don't give any indication of actually sending it. Big surprise, since it was an obvious Trade Federation ploy as we all agree that it was. Whether or not to hold an investigation (after tremendous amounts of evidence, such as the blockade and jamming, already exist) should not be left up to whether the alleged victim takes off in a huff out of frustration.

Bottom line: all of your arguments about governmental ineffectiveness and corruption would be a lot more convincing if we actually saw any of the main characters actually try to work with the system in a remotely competent manner.

Bottom line: You have no understanding of how government and legal systems work, but you make every attempt to excuse the Republic's inexcusable, and grossly unrealistic and unworkable government.

[Kreller1]

I agree that I don't think Palpy would have done squat for Naboo if Amidala's gambit hadn't worked. Remember, he kept telling the Queen to stay on Coruscant where it was safe, and that they would just have to accept TF control of their planet "for the time being." He was fully ready to do jack and squat about the invasion and only showed up on Naboo after he was elected to keep up the facade that he gave a crap.