Darth Sidious is not a true Sith Lord

[Darth Tedious]

The whole question of FL lethality is a bit of a red herring in this case, I think.

It's not like there's no other ways Palpy could have killed Vader.

Hasn't there even been some implication that Vader's suit is Force-powered (by Palpy) to some extent? That would perfectly explain Vader dying shortly after Palpy did...

Why would Vader's suit be powered by Sidious? Wouldn't it have been counterproductive to want him and Luke to overthrow Sidious and take over the Empire only to die shortly after killing Palpy?

Palpy never intended for anyone to succeed him, hence the self-implosive nature of the Empire after his death being pre-planned (all this is according to EU stuff of course)
So it probably works for him to have Vader die
It didn't seem like he wanted a stronger apprentice
Maybe a more controllable one
I think ideas like this may be what brought about the OP
Obviously I'm speculating and musing somewhat here

[Havok]

That is all completely ridiculous and flies in the face of every thing we know from the movies... guess what I am going to say right now?







Waaaaait for it....










The EU fucking sucks and needs to be rebooted.

[Scrib]

I really wouldn't mind a reboot. Then the idiocy of NJO can be erased. But seeing how crazy people get when Traviss is made non-canon I can't see it happening. So the EU is just going to plod down this depressing path until it dies with a whimper.

[Stark]

If only there were any other fully realized scifi worlds that deal with similar issues but lack decades of OCD EU fanservice.

The solution to SW sucking isn't 'reboot', it's 'walk away'.

[Havok]

People like Jedi and Sith Lords and X-Wings and lightsabers.

Yeah, other shit out there has stuff like it, but it ain't it. Sometimes brand loyalty is OK man.

[Stark]

If you rebooted it but kept all the trappings, what would the point be? How is this different to 'reboot Star Trek but put more explosions in' or whatever? That's right; comfort food. What does comfort food make you, kids?

I think your situation is more interesting than most of these individuals because you're well aware that 99% of it is dogshit horrible and just ignore it.

[Ire]

That is all completely ridiculous and flies in the face of every thing we know from the movies... guess what I am going to say right now?







Waaaaait for it....










The EU fucking sucks and needs to be rebooted.

[Havok]

I completely ignore it, but not necessarily because the EU stories suck, although most of them are drivel, but because they don't seem to understand what the movies did. Stand alone, some of it is OK.
Also having 10 years or so of stories without having a completed base story hurt the direction of the EU and is a large part of what made it suck.

[Stark]

I'm just a quitter. You could be a quitter too!

And dude I'm not sure the EU improved post TPM. Remember the mid 2000s stuff? Deary.

[Connor MacLeod]

The EU is pretty much like the same things in 40K. some of it is okay, some of it is crap, some is in between. Alot of it depends on your preferences. After all a great deal of the reason the EU sucked, or WEG sucked, or why Dark Empire was so great was for purely technical reasons (EG scale vs minimalism, for example. Nowadays I the whole 'minimal/maximal thing seems silly.)

For me it was how it utterly became repetitive. Case in point with Legacy of the Force, which is basically just recycling alot of the same plots from the prequel and OT with some superficial changes (Civil war? Good guy force user turns into a bad guy, and relative has to fight them. Rise of a despotic regime asfter the 'noble republic' falls. etc.) I tried giving it a go with the first coupel books but it just failed to be compelling (at least NJO had some positive moments to it alongside all the crap.)

When you couple in the episodic and repetitive formula to alot of the EU (galaxy in peril, the same crowd from the movies has to save it, government and society fall apart.) you start to wonder how the fuck the place started to survive. The best stuff was actually the 'smaller' scale stuff, like the X-wing novels (esp Allston's work) because it actually tried to move away from that. Or Tattooine Ghost, or the Daley novels.

[Stark]

My thing is that unlike the drones who lap at the SW trough, Hav knows its pretty much garbage. He's aware. He just can't step away and spend his time on something not terrible. You can't help some people because they literally have no brain, but Hav is not that sort of individual.

[Havok]

Awwww

[Scrib]

People like Jedi and Sith Lords and X-Wings and lightsabers.

Yeah, other shit out there has stuff like it, but it ain't it. Sometimes brand loyalty is OK man.

Pretty much that. I haven't read the latest books because they're trying to bring the universe more in line with the Legacy comics, which I inexplicably hate, but I read most of the shit I did because I just love the universe.

The EU is pretty much like the same things in 40K. some of it is okay, some of it is crap, some is in between. Alot of it depends on your preferences. After all a great deal of the reason the EU sucked, or WEG sucked, or why Dark Empire was so great was for purely technical reasons (EG scale vs minimalism, for example. Nowadays I the whole 'minimal/maximal thing seems silly.)

A lot of the problem is also writers. They have these big series and bring in writers that just do whatever the fuck they want and end up fucking with the entire series. Traviss decided to use three books of a nine book series to wank Mandalorians and rant about Jedi and iirc the author of the Dark Tide series decided to spend his books with Anakin Solo KNOWING HE WOULD DIE. That's a terrible fucking move imo. (Not as bad as killing him but *shrugLucas*)

I think I'm just giving up on any licensed series written by more than one author. Too much inconsistency.

[Solauren]

Okay, I'm wading in

Sidious not a true Sith: He was named Sith by a Sith Lord, who was named by a Sith Lord, etc, etc, etc.
He's a Sith. He's the Sith MASTER. He can change, alter and be a Sith any way he wants, even if that's to sit around in a bathrobe all day drinking beer and making Ysanne Isard dance in a cage for him....

Force Lightning:
The ROTS Novelization makes it very clear that Mace Windu was killed by Sidious's Force Lightning attack once he was no longer defending against it. Sidious gets up, fries him, tosses him out the Window, and Mace dies while falling. He 'Falls forever'.

Since the only injuries he sustained were a caterized lightsaber wound (non-lethal), and from Force Lightning, and he died, simple logic dictacts that the Force Lightning killed him.

Recall the other instances we've seen Force Lightning on screen:

AoTC: Dooku does not have a chance to use an extended Force Lightning attack on anyone. He never gets the chance to kill with Force Lightning.

RotJ: The Emperor is clearly torturing Luke with the initial lightning attacks. He's drawing things out. "Young Fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand." (Lightning) "You're feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side." (Lightning) "You have paid the price for your lack of vision" (Lightning, Luke clearly in shit loads of pain). "And now, young Skywalker, you will die." (Lightning starts to ramp up).

At that point, Vader intervines, and the Emperor really turns up the power (at least that's what it looks like). He doesn't have enough time to cook Vader or Luke and kill them immediately. Vader dies a short time later from his injuries, and Luke (in the EU), requires medical treatment.

In short, we've only seen on time in the movies where someone is actually allowed to kill with Force Lightning.
And he kills one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the galaxy with it.


Force Lightning CAN kill. It doesn't mean that it always does. It appears to take both a desire to kill your opponent (and not just torture them/injure them), and it takes a sustained attack. One little blast is not going to kill someone (outside of video games), you have to cook the bastard.

Perhaps it would be best to view Force Lightning as a controlled cumulative damage attack? Like a Gou'ald Zat gun? (One shot stuns, 2 shots kill, 3 shots disintegrate).

[Arawn Fenn]

The transform part we see and I assume is a direct nod to Palpatine getting his face melted by his reflected Force Lightning.

It might fairly appear to be so. However, the situation could be a bit more complicated, because the text also says that to use Force lightning properly one must have already been on the receiving end ( even though we do not seem to observe any such thing in, say, the Bane books ). I don't tend to think that ROTS Sidious is supposed to be using Force lightning at an inferior level when he first lets loose, so that would imply he had been on the receiving end of it before. In fact, I doubt he's meant to be using it at an inferior level by the end of Darth Plagueis. So what happened when he was hit by lightning before?

[Havok]

Before I start, you should just go read my stance in the thread I linked but I'll touch on your points here.

Force Lightning:
The ROTS Novelization makes it very clear that Mace Windu was killed by Sidious's Force Lightning attack once he was no longer defending against it. Sidious gets up, fries him, tosses him out the Window, and Mace dies while falling. He 'Falls forever'.

Yeah, that is the most ambiguous line ever. If that kind of metaphorical line is something you consider "clear" I'm not sure I should read the rest.

Since the only injuries he sustained were a caterized lightsaber wound (non-lethal), and from Force Lightning, and he died, simple logic dictacts that the Force Lightning killed him.

Uh, simple logic dictates he died when he hit the fucking ground. Are you kidding me?

Recall the other instances we've seen Force Lightning on screen:

Lets...

AoTC: Dooku does not have a chance to use an extended Force Lightning attack on anyone. He never gets the chance to kill with Force Lightning.

Very true and the damage from the attack is clearly caused by the secondary effect of the throw Dooku used to bash Anakin into the wall. Even if the throw part is an effect of the FL, it was still the impact that hurt Anakin, not the actual lightning strike. So, clearly one of the most powerful Jedi ever can't kill a completely unaware victim with a burst of lightning.

RotJ: The Emperor is clearly torturing Luke with the initial lightning attacks. He's drawing things out. "Young Fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand." (Lightning) "You're feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side." (Lightning) "You have paid the price for your lack of vision" (Lightning, Luke clearly in shit loads of pain). "And now, young Skywalker, you will die." (Lightning starts to ramp up).

Yup, and then Luke gets up, drags his pops from the throne room, across the hanger, has a nice little conversation, then drags his pops into a shuttle and calmly pilots it down to Endor, where he proceeds to build a funeral pyre, burn pops up then goes to a party.
So you are saying that even when the most powerful Sith Lord ever decides it's time for a newly minted Jedi to die and then proceeds to "ramp up" the FL and then shoots the most lightning at the strongest level for the longest time we see on screen... it still does nothing but mildly inconvenience Luke after the lightning stops.

At that point, Vader intervines, and the Emperor really turns up the power (at least that's what it looks like). He doesn't have enough time to cook Vader or Luke and kill them immediately. Vader dies a short time later from his injuries, and Luke (in the EU), requires medical treatment.

Yeah, and you have to add EU nonsense into it to give FL any teeth at all. Even then, it merely requires medical treatment, what, like, weeks later?

In short, we've only seen on time in the movies where someone is actually allowed to kill with Force Lightning.
And he kills one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the galaxy with it.

Well according to you, it's twice. Pick one.
That aside, Vader is a cyborg that has a dependence on his electric suit to keep him alive. EVEN THEN, the suit is still working. Oh look how powerful and lethal FL is!!!

Sorry, as I said in my thread on it, Force Lightning is a torture device and nothing more, UNLESS coupled with another force of effect, it is only that.

Force Lightning CAN kill. It doesn't mean that it always does. It appears to take both a desire to kill your opponent (and not just torture them/injure them), and it takes a sustained attack. One little blast is not going to kill someone (outside of video games), you have to cook the bastard.

Too much water can kill. Too much oxygen can kill. That doesn't mean either are 'lethal', and sorry but you prime example of Luke disproves you theory that it takes a sustained attack, unless you would like to show me a more sustained attack than what Palpatine unleashed on Luke AFTER he, even according to you, mashed the "ramp up" button.

Perhaps it would be best to view Force Lightning as a controlled cumulative damage attack? Like a Gou'ald Zat gun? (One shot stuns, 2 shots kill, 3 shots disintegrate).

Uh, no. I think that would be fucking stupid. We see what it does on screen, which trumps any EU sources, even novelizations, and it is not lethal in any single event.

[Arawn Fenn]

Vader is a cyborg that has a dependence on his electric suit to keep him alive. EVEN THEN, the suit is still working.

Vader didn't die?

[Havok]

Uh, can you not read. I said that the SUIT was still working. Or did you you not hear the breathing apparatus functioning during the entire scene and then later in the hanger.
If the FL fried the suit... why were the lights on? Why was the voice modulator still working? Just how powerful is FL if it can't even fry electronics?

It is all about observational data. What we see on film contradicts every argument that Force Lightning is an insta-kill lethal weapon. Even when you get a prolonged blast from the fucking Sith Lord of Sith Lords, it can't even fuse some wires together. It can't even keep Luke from going to a party!

Yeah Vader died, was it from the Force Lightning? It may have contributed, but given what we know about Star Wars now, he fulfilled his destiny, and redeemed himself and no longer wanted to be Darth Vader anymore. It was Anakin's hatred and anger and shame and pain that kept him alive. The suit just let him move around. Vader chose to die because he no longer needed to be Vader.

[Arawn Fenn]

Uh, can you not read. I said that the SUIT was still working.

This is the suit that's supposed to be keeping him alive, right? So did he stay alive?

It was Anakin's hatred and anger and shame and pain that kept him alive.

That's funny, I thought you said it was the suit.

The suit just let him move around.

That function was provided by his legs.

Vader chose to die because he no longer needed to be Vader.

"Nothing can stop that now."

[Havok]

Uh, can you not read. I said that the SUIT was still working.

This is the suit that's supposed to be keeping him alive, right? So did he stay alive?

The suit was functioning until after Luke took the helmet off. Even Luke acknowledged that the suit was still functioning. So if the suit was still functioning, that means it was still working, meaning that even Palpatine's most powerful FL couldn't disrupt it's function. He died after his helmet was taken off.

It was Anakin's hatred and anger and shame and pain that kept him alive.

That's funny, I thought you said it was the suit.

Yes, I did, I wasn't clear though. I didn't mean physically alive, I meant it was what kept him alive as Darth Vader. It is what drove him. What kept him alive on the banks of the lava river on Mustafar and what kept him alive while he wrecked shop through the galaxy as Darth Vader.

The suit just let him move around.

That function was provided by his legs.

Sigh... fine, I see I have to play the spell everything out with you game because you are an idiot. The suit allowed him to move around outside of a big giant hyperbaric chamber.

Vader chose to die because he no longer needed to be Vader.

"Nothing can stop that now."

Exactly. Just like Padme.

The point is choice, kinda a theme of the whole movie in case you missed it. Vader chose to die because his son chose to die to fulfill what arguably should have been his own destiny. He saw his son redeem him and he no longer needed to live as Vader and he could no longer live as Anakin. I mean are you seriously going to sit there and say that Anakin couldn't survive Force Lightning that couldn't even make his suit stop working when he survived having his arms and legs cut off and having almost all his skin burned off while he lay there for however long it was until Palpatine showed up? Please.

[Arawn Fenn]

Even Luke acknowledged that the suit was still functioning.

When?

even Palpatine's most powerful FL couldn't disrupt it's function. He died after his helmet was taken off.

That doesn't work with "nothing can stop that now", if just putting his helmet back on would stop that now. You seem to forget that he says that line before the helmet is taken off.

The point is choice, kinda a theme of the whole movie in case you missed it.

Vader died because of Force lightning, in case you missed it.

you are an idiot.

Switching Vader's death with Padme's death seems an idiotic way to sell Force lightning revisionism.

[Simon_Jester]

Haven't... hm. I think I've heard people calling force lightning more of a 'pain' thing than a 'I shoot lasers from my hands' thing. It's an instrument of torture, not a weapon, and it doesn't have to cause physical damage to your body. You can block it physically, but mental discipline alone can make you resistant if you're prepared; Yoda shows us this in Episode II.

Getting hit with enough of it might cause the pain to just kill you from shock, but if your mind can pull itself back together you'd be able to recover pretty quickly. Sort of like severe emotional shock, or having a stubbed toe all over (at the risk of trivializing it).

In Episode III, Mace just had his arm chopped off, so he's already in a lot of pain. The lightning adds to that, which leaves him totally incapacitated. That either kills him directly (shock) or makes him unable to protect himself when Palpatine force-shoves him out the window.

In Episode VI, Palpatine isn't trying to kill Luke quickly, he's trying to torture him. He probably is trying to kill Vader. But Luke's young, healthy, and strong in the Force, so he can bounce back quickly after the torture stops. Physically there's nothing wrong with him, he hasn't been burned or shocked much to speak of. Whereas Vader is older and very unhealthy. The stress alone could cause him more harm, even if his life support systems are still working and weren't damaged electrically. So his condition doesn't improve, he doesn't recover, and he dies.

Seems reasonable to me.

[atg]

In Episode VI, Palpatine isn't trying to kill Luke quickly, he's trying to torture him. He probably is trying to kill Vader.

Something I just thought - Did Luke's bones ever glow like Vader's or Windu's? That would imply that Palpatine wasn't putting full power into it. So when Palpatine want's people to die - the power is ramped up to the point where their bones glow from the energy, when he wants to torture them to death the bones don't.

[Kreller1]

In Episode VI, Palpatine isn't trying to kill Luke quickly, he's trying to torture him. He probably is trying to kill Vader.

Something I just thought - Did Luke's bones ever glow like Vader's or Windu's? That would imply that Palpatine wasn't putting full power into it. So when Palpatine want's people to die - the power is ramped up to the point where their bones glow from the energy, when he wants to torture them to death the bones don't.

Vader's body has a lot of metal pieces in it, which to me looked like they glowed more. I seem to recall seeing some of Luke's bones glowing a bit, but not like Vader's did.

[Simon_Jester]

I wouldn't count on the visual effects of force lightning as a good clue to what they're capable of- they look like electrical discharges, but there's no reason to suppose they really are if we stick to the movies.

Saying that they're more metaphysical than real appeals to me- it explains why only the most powerful Sith seem to be able to create the lightning, and why only the wisest Jedi can counter it. The use of the lightsaber to block is problematic; given that Jedi seem to use it almost as a spiritual and symbolic focus though, it might not be.

Somehow I think that fits more with the nature and themes of the movies than just calling it "Summon Arc Welder Attack" would be.