Are there any references to how Jedi precog would work in a starfighter simulator due to the fact that the danger is entirely artificial?
I believe I remember a reference to Jedi using simulators in one of the old Jedi Apprentice books, but there was no detail given. The only other thing I can think of is that Jedi do regularly train with simulated danger in the form of training droids as well as seeker droids but those both are physically there while with a simulator it is a digital construct.
The Force precog and simulated combat
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Adam Reynolds
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PhilosopherOfSorts
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Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
Precog is trained separately from combat piloting, and while it is an advantage, it doesn't make someone a god in the pilot's seat. Wedge Antilles, Han Solo, Soontir Fel, Jagged Fel, Wes Janson, Hobbie Kilvan, these are some of the best pilots in the Galaxy, and not one of them is Force-sensitive.
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Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
Is there some reason seeing the future requires danger anyway? It's not fucking spidey sense.
Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
I believe this belief comes from people confusing 2 separate Force abilities - one which is short-term precognition, and the other being a sort of empathic sense for "intentions" of those around you - like not just being able to see that there's an enemy behind that door, but that he intends to shoot the next person that comes through it. It also explains why Jedi sometimes let their guard down when things haven't seemingly cleared yet - they don't "sense" any malevolent intentions...Stark wrote:Is there some reason seeing the future requires danger anyway? It's not fucking spidey sense.
Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
Or Jedi aren't perfect, but hey, let's totally over complicate the issue.
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Connor MacLeod
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Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
It may be that not all Jedi use precog either. We're shown in the movies and alot of the spinoff literature that force abilities aren't somethign that are exactly standardized amongst Jedi. And even your rank/status isn't dictated by some arbitrary power level generally (at least not raw, brute power.) It wouldn't surprise me if 'warning detection' type abilities for Jedi encompass a range of different abilities, and Jeid may possess only some or a few (or perhaps not all) of them.
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The Disintegrator
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Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
Given that fairly few Jedi didn't seem to catch on to Order 66 until they were being gunned down suggests that their precognition is very much limited. It could be that it has to do with the clones not planning to kill the Jedi until seconds prior. But from the looks of it, it seemed like some of the Jedi had a few moments in which they should have been able to sense that they were about to be attacked. And I could be wrong on this, but it seemed like even Yoda didn't really see it coming, but instead put two and two together when he felt the massive deaths of his fellow Jedi. So this does leave open the previously mentioned possibility that precognition isn't a very standardized Jedi power.
My personal theory on this has been that Jango Fett and his clones have some kind of disconnect with the force, where the Jedi have difficulty reading them. This is how I would explain the ease with which Jango killed Jedi redshirt's in Episode II, and also how the clones were able to easily get the drop on their Jedi commanders upon the issuing of Order 66.
But back on to the whole piloting thing, I would imagine that Force precognition powers should work just as well against a digital construct given that it seems to work just as well on droids. Since the droid's actions are based on digital processes, I would think that Force powers that rely partly on intent would transition to simulations.
My personal theory on this has been that Jango Fett and his clones have some kind of disconnect with the force, where the Jedi have difficulty reading them. This is how I would explain the ease with which Jango killed Jedi redshirt's in Episode II, and also how the clones were able to easily get the drop on their Jedi commanders upon the issuing of Order 66.
But back on to the whole piloting thing, I would imagine that Force precognition powers should work just as well against a digital construct given that it seems to work just as well on droids. Since the droid's actions are based on digital processes, I would think that Force powers that rely partly on intent would transition to simulations.
Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
I really, really doubt that theory. As it is, the current stated theory behind the success of Order 66 is simply that the Jedi trusted the clonetroopers just about entirely, were distracted by the battles raging all around them and didn't feel any malice or ill intent - the clones weren't acting out of some treacherous desire to murder their generals, they were simply carrying out their lawful duties in many cases right when the Jedi were concentrating on something else than their troopers. And even the Jedi who noticed it all might not actually comprehend what was actually going on. "Why are my troopers acting weird? Why they stopped their advance suddenly?" And then the attack begins.The Disintegrator wrote:My personal theory on this has been that Jango Fett and his clones have some kind of disconnect with the force, where the Jedi have difficulty reading them. This is how I would explain the ease with which Jango killed Jedi redshirt's in Episode II, and also how the clones were able to easily get the drop on their Jedi commanders upon the issuing of Order 66.
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Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
I got the impression that it was utilizing the force for better spacial awareness as those who have the natural ability to process more of whats going on around them make better pilots.
Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
How about combining 'seeing the future and sensing threat are not the same thing' and 'Jedi are not infallible' and calling it a day?
I mean Yoda didn't see the Coruscant invasion fleet until it was outside his window either. Clearly the robits didn't have any BAD INTENTIONS. :V
I mean Yoda didn't see the Coruscant invasion fleet until it was outside his window either. Clearly the robits didn't have any BAD INTENTIONS. :V
Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
Just from the movies, and their novels, we have three different mechanisms (if you can call them that) for supposed precog.
1) Some sort of empathy where as evil intentions can be felt. Jedi rely on it to sense trouble and those people without any evil or murderous intent, strong emotions about the actions, are not detectable; such as clones just following orders. In a combat simulation with just computers, this type will do no good. In a simulation with real troops, like a range or CQB type thing, surges of emotion should be readable and register some what.
2) Becoming one with the Force and all the stuff around you. Not sure what to call it exactly, but in the RotS novel, Obi Wan became everything around him on the bridge of Grevious's ship. The guards, the droids, the flood and walls, etc... He was connected to all these things through the Force, and therefor wasn't reading minds per say, but knew what they were going to do as they themselves knew when they were going to do it. In any combat simulation, this would work just fine.
3) Force visions/dreams. Both Luke and Anakin saw visions in the Force, either through sleeping or meditation. The future, the past, etc... Qui Gon also mentions that Jedi can 'see' the immediate future and react to it, which makes it seem like they have super reflexes. Not sure if Qui Gon's bit actually refers to #2 though. Either way, we know, and have been shown, Force visions of the future. Perhaps of limited utility during a simulation, unless there was a pause in activity, but prior knowledge of future events could be valuable in a simulated combat scenario.
1) Some sort of empathy where as evil intentions can be felt. Jedi rely on it to sense trouble and those people without any evil or murderous intent, strong emotions about the actions, are not detectable; such as clones just following orders. In a combat simulation with just computers, this type will do no good. In a simulation with real troops, like a range or CQB type thing, surges of emotion should be readable and register some what.
2) Becoming one with the Force and all the stuff around you. Not sure what to call it exactly, but in the RotS novel, Obi Wan became everything around him on the bridge of Grevious's ship. The guards, the droids, the flood and walls, etc... He was connected to all these things through the Force, and therefor wasn't reading minds per say, but knew what they were going to do as they themselves knew when they were going to do it. In any combat simulation, this would work just fine.
3) Force visions/dreams. Both Luke and Anakin saw visions in the Force, either through sleeping or meditation. The future, the past, etc... Qui Gon also mentions that Jedi can 'see' the immediate future and react to it, which makes it seem like they have super reflexes. Not sure if Qui Gon's bit actually refers to #2 though. Either way, we know, and have been shown, Force visions of the future. Perhaps of limited utility during a simulation, unless there was a pause in activity, but prior knowledge of future events could be valuable in a simulated combat scenario.
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Connor MacLeod
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Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
#1 is just your bog standard superhuman senses. Its not precog, its just picking up on stuff. Sort of like emotional (and other stuff) sensors. They can even pick up on life signs and shit IIRC.
#2 Isn't 'detection' per se.. its more a state of being. You're like.. so in depth with the force, so intimately and deeply tapping it, you're like truly superhuman. This again happesn in alot of novels (and you're referring to the novelization depiction of Obi-Wan's fight anyhow, IIRC) so its more like.. everything becomes enhnanced. Sensory/detection, performance, etc. We know from the movies that the more conscious control that is surrendered to the force, the better reactions and shit (like bolt deflecting) can work.. but on the other hand it robs you of the ability to act decisively. There's a balance between the two, and in that there is alot of potential for mistakes and imperfection, as its not an easy balance to strike.
#3 is precog. The difference I suspect between short and long term stuff is just the amount of time devoted to it. Short term, focused precog (like in combat) is pretty simple becaues you're not looking too far into the future. Its fairly precise and reasonably effortless because there's not many outcomes/variables to focus on. But as you look further into the future, or as you expand the scope of your 'seeing', the more variables become involved, and the more complicated shit becomes. It needs more effort, and the outcomes can become harder to predict.
#2 Isn't 'detection' per se.. its more a state of being. You're like.. so in depth with the force, so intimately and deeply tapping it, you're like truly superhuman. This again happesn in alot of novels (and you're referring to the novelization depiction of Obi-Wan's fight anyhow, IIRC) so its more like.. everything becomes enhnanced. Sensory/detection, performance, etc. We know from the movies that the more conscious control that is surrendered to the force, the better reactions and shit (like bolt deflecting) can work.. but on the other hand it robs you of the ability to act decisively. There's a balance between the two, and in that there is alot of potential for mistakes and imperfection, as its not an easy balance to strike.
#3 is precog. The difference I suspect between short and long term stuff is just the amount of time devoted to it. Short term, focused precog (like in combat) is pretty simple becaues you're not looking too far into the future. Its fairly precise and reasonably effortless because there's not many outcomes/variables to focus on. But as you look further into the future, or as you expand the scope of your 'seeing', the more variables become involved, and the more complicated shit becomes. It needs more effort, and the outcomes can become harder to predict.
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Ford Prefect
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Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
What does trust have to do with seeing the future, exactly?Tiriol wrote:the Jedi trusted the clonetroopers just about entirely
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Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
Well if they trust them they wouldn't be looking into the future to see if the clone troopers were going to betray them...Ford Prefect wrote:What does trust have to do with seeing the future, exactly?
But more seriously, that's relevant because it kept the clones from triggering the Jedi's hostility/anger/hatred detection.
Re: The Force precog and simulated combat
Are you sure that's not just a really stupid rationalisation? I mean I don't want to sound odd but they've been pretty crap all round at detecting some pretty hostile guys for literally decades.