NJO Question
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To which Luke replies something to the effect of, "yes, he must have had help"
/me fishes out Hand of Thrawn duology to find direct quote, where did i put those damn books....
/me fishes out Hand of Thrawn duology to find direct quote, where did i put those damn books....
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Just wanted to mention that based on surface area (assuming a rectangle base on the maximum length and width), the Unknown Region actually makes up <15% of the surface area of the SW galaxy.Ender wrote:The maps clearly show that the Unknown regions are about a 3rd of the galaxy.
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Another map for those who havent seen it.
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How "Darkstarian"? Wow simply just discredit your opponent by comparing him to that mental case.Ender wrote:How Darkstarian. No, I am correct.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Completely wrong.
This is what you said:
Emphasis mine.Ender wrote:You are confusing the Hand of Thrawn with his Splinter cell plan. Hand of thrawn is the fleet Palpatine kept slipping to him plus all the conquered territory and all those alliances.
I refuted and offered this as evidence:
Emphasis mine.[i]The New Essential Guide to Characters[/i], page 186 wrote:Thrawn built a vast information complex--the "Hand of Thrawn"--and made it his unofficial base of operations.
Well, I guess even Darkstar understands, "the fleet" != "a vast information complex." Yeah, you are completely wrong, lying little shit.
Wow. "I am correct" followed by that, which was a reply to this:Ender wrote:The Hand of Thrawn was fully built and estabilshed long before he returned.
Can we say "unrelated to the cited point"? Please keep to the point.Ender wrote:You are confusing the Hand of Thrawn with his Splinter cell plan. Hand of thrawn is the fleet Palpatine kept slipping to him plus all the conquered territory and all those alliances.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its doubtful the Hand of Thrawn took down the Ssi-ruuk.
The Hand of Thrawn didn't really come about until Thrawn returned to the galaxy proper. Its quite weak as it is though.
According the NEGTC, it was constructed during his mapping campiagns, and was operational by the time he returned. This was not refuted by me.
I said it hadn't come about--and indeed, the clone cylinder and information database--what made the Hand of Thrawn worth anything--wasn't really compiled until he left.
So you'll deny the NEGTC's direct quote?Ender wrote:I'm tired of people who let their blind hatred for something cloud the facts: Hand of Thrawn was a control base for the entire operation. Smaller bases and fleets were spread throughout the territory, speculated by Mara and confirmed in the short story Blue Sky Red flameIlluminatus Primus wrote: I'm tired of people who can't read and wank wank and wank some more to anything Zahn or Thrawn because they're kewl and mysterious.
The Hand of Thrawn is the actual fortress on Nirauan and nothing more.
The Hand of Thrawn is the fortress on Nirauan and the information database.
Wrong.Ender wrote:No, it was simply stated to existIlluminatus Primus wrote:NONE of this "great fleet" has EVER been observed.
Mara supposes it exists, and we see significant, but rather trivial forces in Blue Sky Red Flame. Imperial fleets at its height are in league with the fleet at Endor and the force under Giel. Thrawn was dispatched to map the Unknown Region in a mere destroyer for a flagship.
They said they did not have the resources to confront the Yuuzhan Vong. To fight them. General Fel goes on to suppose on how the forces they had to send would have made no difference at Ord Mantel or any of the other battles. The forces were withdrawn because the Hand of Thrawn deemed them inconsequential to the conflict.Ender wrote:Prove they were hard pressed. Especially since it was said the reason that they only sent that was because they didn't want to get involved, not because they didn't have any.Illuminatus Primus wrote:In fact, the Hand of Thrawn was hard-pressed to offer ANY aid beyond a handful of Clawcraft which had to be refitted with decent weapons systems and even a navicomputer.
Strawman.Ender wrote:I'd love to know how you conquer 240 sectors with only 2 ISDs, especially since you claim Thrawn was a poor commander.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Even in stories about Thrawn in the Unknown Regions, we never see him with more than an ISD or two.
Two-hundred and forty sectors are not as important if they contain few stars. The galactic halo is relatively empty. I did not say all he had were 2 ISDs. That's another strawman. I said that we never observe him with large fleets--in the height-of-Imperial glory scale of the fleet under Giel or the entrapment at Endor.
If you think 240 sectors would be mapped and then completely ignored by a galactic-spanning civilization for 25,000 years, than I have a plot of desert to sell you here in Florida.Ender wrote:No. That is Saxton's speculation. The maps clearly show that the Unknown regions are about a 3rd of the galaxy. They remap it because according to AOTC ICS maps have fallen hideously out of date.Illuminatus Primus wrote:All that is seen in Vision of the Future is the map. Two-hundred and forty sectors are filled in. Thrawn mapped and explored 240 sectors. However, according to Behind the Magic CD-ROM, AOTC, and practical concerns from the speed and efficiency of hyperdrive, we know that the Unknown Regions is nothing more than the galactic halo of diffuse stellar matter in the void around the galaxy. ALL of the galactic disk and the nearby satellite galaxies has been explored according to AOTC.
Jocasta Nu: "If a star system does not appear in our archives, then it does not exist."
AOTC revealed that star systems as far out as Kamino, which is beyond the satellite dwarf galaxy known as the Rishi Maze (according to Worlds of AOTC) are mapped and been part of the galactic community for sometime.
Do you really think that a third of the galactic disk was just ignored and uncolonized and unmapped for 1000s of years, allowing cultures to spring up that apparently no one knew about carving out empires in the mist of the galaxy--again that no one knew about?
The map in the Chronology and the NJO books barely 0 resemblance to the canon galactic map in AOTC, nor the previous Behind the Magic CD ROM map. The ratio of galactic core area to spiral arms is wrong, and the perspective is shit. Its departure from the canon map and structure of the spiral galaxies is enough to make it dubious--without the laughable assertion that with 25000 years of FTL they couldn't map the galaxy. And that they'd just choose to stop colonizing along straight lines with NO colonization beyond. Right.
In a day or two, the entire galaxy can be traveled across. You expect me to believe that they just did not bother with 1/3 of the galaxy for huge swathes of territory to raise their own cultures and species? That's not "remapping"; that is never knowing what was there in the first place. AOTC, Nu's statement, and the speed of hyperdrive are all quite in agreement. The idea 1/3 of the galaxy got missed in 25,000 years (enough for the Federation to explore every star in the Milky Way with warp easily) of hyperdrive is laughable.
Back up assertion that they fought off a group as strong as the Yevetha.Ender wrote:So with 2 ISDs and a few gunboats, they managed to defeat several powers that were as strong as the Yevetha, who required a whole NR fleet and parts of two others, plus internal revolution to defeat?Illuminatus Primus wrote:Furthermore, there has never ANYTHING seen from the Hand of Thrawn more impressive than a gunboat or two.
By Vision of the Future, the Hand of Thrawn is observed to have no military might beyond the garrison and their couple gunboats--yes or no?
I don't care what they accomplished while Thrawn was out there--he had Palpatine's backing and a probably a small to modest fleet. Point is they have no noted significant military forces after the Thrawn Trilogy.
The Dark Empire Sourcebook is clear that Thrawn was simply being used by Palpatine--it says this explicitly. Palpatine was said to have withdrawn the significant Imperial forces back to the Deep Core prior to Operation Shadow Hand through agents and such. Now, if he was using Thrawn, he chose to eliminate him, and there were significant forces in the UR, you don't think he withdrew them to help retake the galaxy?
And if they were there, why did they have to refit the Clawcraft with weapons on par w/ the galactic mainstream and even a navicomputer with all this supposed left over technology.
Look at the void around the galactic disk of any galaxy.Ender wrote:I'd like a quote on that.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mara's supposition that the mapped territory "might" (her own words) have its own complement of yards and ships any what not is unfounded--the mapped area contains very very few stars and even fewer minable or colonizable planets.
http://www.earthsky.com/2002/es020225.html (author's notes)Marc Airhart, author's notes wrote:So life is a safer bet the farther you go from the center of the galaxy, but get too far from the center and planets become more rare. That's because heavy elements fro which planets are made become more and more rare the farther you go from the center of the galaxy.
Everything is so spread out in the Unknown Regions, owning 30 x the Empire's volume isn't really much at all.
Ender wrote:No, it says that they refuse to commit,Illuminatus Primus wrote:General Fel's commentary by Dark Journey reveals the Hand of Thrawn does not possess the resources to even mount a half way decent expedition to investigate the Vong threat other than a squadron of coralskippers.
Wow. I sure am twisting. Oh wait...you're a liar or you're delusional and can't read.[i]Dark Journey[/i], page 53 wrote:"This phalanx is committed to the same goals you've espoused."
Not only is the premise (not committed) complete bullshit...but...Ender wrote:hence their only sending out a small expendable group until they cna convince the others.
Baron Fel says the Phalanx's expedition was inconsequential. (And sadly, I had to quote one of my earlier posts to Ender; Ender again demonstrates that he has no reading comprehension)Illuminatus Primus wrote:[i]Dark Journey[/i], page 53 wrote:"Two squadrons," the general repeated. "Twenty-four clawcraft and a beacon ship. How much difference could this force have made at Ord Mantell? Or Duro?
Baron Fel says it right here: with Ithor turning out like it was, he didn't see what help the phalanx would be worth--they're too little.[i]Dark Journey[/i], page 53 wrote:"Given the outcome of [Ithor] and the withdrawl of Imperial support, I saw little value in committing phalanx squadrons."
He explicitly says that is why he withdrew the Phalanx forces--it was his perogative, he wasn't trying to convince the rest of the Phalanx--he withdrew them because he knew the Phalanx couldn't make any difference against the Vong.
But of course, to a deluded mind like Ender, verbatim quoting of Fel is twisting facts.
Who is "Darkstarian" again?
Additionally: he only seems to refer to fighter squadrons. If this is so, than even if the Household Phalanx has capital vessels, they appear to not be available for force projection--they're tied up elsewhere or too few.
Not that it should matter anyway--the Clawcraft they dispatched to the galaxy proper had to fitted with navicomputers--which clearly implies that navicomputers are not standard equipment aboard Phalanx ships with hyperdrives. So the majority of Phalanx forces probably cannot leave their own territory. Wow. Chiss capital ships that probably cannot be committed to force projection anywhere beyond their territory--assuming they exist in projectable numbers--as none have been seen.
Impressive.
Than they were withdrawn by Palpatine before Operation Shadow Hand--he knew about them, AND he withdrew numerous other fleets, depleting the Imperial Navy.Ender wrote:No, it didn't. He returned alone.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Firstly, I was saying that the Chiss Empire was not the entity that destroyed the Ssi-ruuk. We don't know who it was. I suspect it was Thrawn's mapping fleet, that likely went back with him to the Empire.
This is supported by the fact that the frontline fighter--the only vessel Baron Fel mentions as being within mention about committing Phalanx forces--has no navicomputer. Imperial fleets have plenty of Assault Gunboats and such, and plenty of capital ships with navicomputers--these couldn't be copied or even simply universally mounted in Clawcraft?
The most likely possibility is the majority of Imperial forces out there were recalled by Palpatine along with everything else during his blitzkrieg to retake and subjugate the galaxy again under his control. He called in all the other forces.
Its a leap in logic to assume such forces (and I still want a quote or hard evidence about how the Yevetha were as tough as these forces; and by the way, Black Sword Fleet != Yevetha) were permanently attached to the mapping expedition or simply stayed in the Unknown Region indefinitely until the NJO, since you think there are these great phantom fleets out there.Ender wrote:How else did he stop groups said to be as powerful as the Yevetha?Illuminatus Primus wrote:Secondly, what is this about "assload" of Imperial ships? Prove this or leave it.
Ender wrote:You keep claiming this even though the official maps clearly prove you wrongIlluminatus Primus wrote:There's not much in the Unknown Regions to conquer.
Wrong.
The opposition against the Chronology & NJO novels' map.
1. One canon map (AOTC)
2. One official map (Behind the Magic)
3. 100% explicit canon quote (Jocasta Nu)
4. Novel descriptions of concentric galactic regions, with Wild Space being the last one, followed finally by the UR
5. Scientific knowledge that one could map and colonize most of a galaxy with relativistic travel in 25,000 years
6. Scientific knowledge that a spiral galaxy has no great navigation problems that'd prevent exploration of a certain quadrant of the spiral arms
7. Common sense that a galaxy-spanning civilization that has had hyperdrive that can travel across a galaxy in a day should have colonized rather uniformly
8. Common sense that even if maps do get outdated in some places, it is supremely unlikely this would happen for so long and so specifically in one place as to result in one quadrant basically isolated and full of unknown cultures.
9. Scientific knowledge that the spiral arms of a galaxy are in different proportions in relation to the galactic core than shown in the cited map.
Actually one race Thrawn talked about he couldn't understand threw art--so he destroyed their planet. That requires precisely 1 ISD and 1 hour. And mercs were able to pull it off really fast on Caamas and the Mystrel planet.Ender wrote:Races that would require whole fleets to deal with were halted, and you claim it was by a few gunboats and 2 ISDs. What is wrong with this picture.Illuminatus Primus wrote:So far we've seen a couple of technologically backward races with a couple worlds and some raiders and pirates. Thrawn's been observed with an ISD or two. Wow.
And the 2 ISDs and gunboats is a strawman. I said that's what we observed, but I never said that's all they had. My point is assuming vast fleets is unsupported by evidence.
Argument from Ignorance. Besides. Do you think a wing of fighters and an ISD couldn't capture the Jade's Fire? That, after all, is what they intended to do--capture Mara once she arrived. They did exactly that.Ender wrote:They were trying to lure Mara there. Having ISDs parked in orbit is going to make here turn and run, not come on down.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Furthermore, the mapping fleet disappeared by VoTF, as nothing was observed defending the HoT itself other than a couple gunships.
You're completely wrong.
Ender wrote:They refused to commit nothing more. That does not mean they have nothing more, no matter how many times you tell yourself that.Illuminatus Primus wrote:And by Dark Journey they do not have anything to send beyond a squadron of upgraded and modified Clawcraft.
And it is "refuse to commit anything more" by the way.[i]Dark Journey[/i], page 53 wrote:"This phalanx is committed to the same goals you've espoused."
Emphasis mine.Ender wrote:It's also the main base for that fleet that is termed the Hand of thrawn since no one knows it's real name. What you are doing is arguing that since the Pentagon is stuck in Washington, America has no armed forces.Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Hand of Thrawn is also not a military power. Its an obsidian fortress containing Thrawn's most loyal fanatics and a vast cache of imformation as well as Thrawn's cloning cylinder.
Hmm...lets see what something Ender even quoted of me said...
What about the books Ender indicates he's read?Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mitth'raw'nuroudo's Household Phalanx, the body that controls the HoT, is not a very strong military power.
[i]Vision of the Future[/i], page 323 wrote:Stent drew himself up straighter. "We are Syndic Mitth'raw'nuruodo's Household Phalanx."
Emphases all mine.[i]Dark Journey[/i], page 52 wrote:The young man wore the formal black uniform of the Syndic Mitth'raw'nuroudo's Household Phalanx, and the insignia of a colonel.
Again, Ender shows he cannot read. Not even the previously posted (and even quoted by HIM) statements, and not the novels he has indicated his read.
Oh what is this--a strawman. I never said it was their entire military. The Phalanx--which is dedicated against the Vong--did not retain their squadrons in the field, because, according to Fel, the Phalanx's musterable might is inconsequential.Ender wrote:No, that was the entirety of the forces they lent to the Empire on Fel's own initiative. That is not their entire military.Illuminatus Primus wrote:All the forces the Household Phalanx mustered up until this point.
Bullshit.Ender wrote:He was given those by Palpatine, he didn't misappropriate them.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Grand Admiral Thrawn's treachery. He commissioned a personal force, loyal solely to him, and misappropriated Imperial resources into it
The turbolasers guarding Thrawn's information reserve, the Hand of Thrawn, are Imperial property.
The Household Phalanx is a hive of traitors. General Fel is an Imperial deserter who swears allegiance to "serving and upholding" Thrawn's ideals in a new uniform. According to Stent in VoTF, they live only to serve him. Thrawn directly lured Fel from Imperial service, into his own.
He's a traitor.
See above. New uniform, oath to Thrawn, etc. = betrayal of Imperial duties and alleagiances. Treachery.Ender wrote:He was following Palpatines orders of taking the UR. I fail to see how these would be his designs.Illuminatus Primus wrote:and even actively encouraged Imperial servicepersons and officers to desert to join his illegal force and declare completely loyalty to him and his designs.
As I remember it, Palpatine was manipulating the Noghri as well, and percipitated Thrawn's demise.Ender wrote:Reread the sourcebook. Palpatine was going to have him killed, but it happened before he got involved in it.Illuminatus Primus wrote:He is a traitor and Palpatine was right to have him killed.
Ender wrote:Way to twist the quote. They do not have sufficient men and material to take on the invaders.Illuminatus Primus wrote:They do not have the resources to confront the Yuuzhan Vong save for a tiny expedition with a squadron or couple of clawcraft that had to be modified to have a navicomputer and decent weapons systems even.[i]Dark Journey[/i], page 54 wrote:"You were trained by Chiss tacticians," Baron Fel continued. "Tell me: do we have the ships, weaponry, personnel, or for that matter the knowledge needed to take on these invaders?"
"We do not," Jag admitted.
Obviously; the whole point.
Actually, by Destiny's Way they outproduce, outmatch, and outnumber the Yuuzhan Vong, and throughout the war much of the forces were tied up by political hand-wringing, or trapped by Senators in local defense groups.Ender wrote:Neither does the NR, it its debatable that the Empire did.
No, you're adding the fact that he sent Col. Fel on a fact-finding mission has diddly shit to do with his statement that the Phalanx does not have the military materiel to persue the Yuuzhan Vong at all. Period.Ender wrote:You also dropped the part that follows where General Fel specifically tells him to go on a fact finding mission. That they sent a small group on a small mission does not mean they lack anything greater.
Your apparent inability to read makes me wonder about the state of your intelligence.Ender wrote:Your numerous twistings of fact, contradicted claims, and gaping errors make me wonder if you have actually read and analyzed any of the material involved with the Hand of Thrawn, or if your blind hatred for Zahn just makes you breeze through it to sputter here.
I refuse to debate further with someone who openly denies the fallaciousness of a map in light of higher-canonical sources, and other concerns that disprove it, and someone who cannot read so that I must requote verbatim the supposedly cited bits of text.
Go back to the source text and validate--I see quotes in my posts--and lies in yours.
Last edited by Illuminatus Primus on 2003-04-19 01:50am, edited 1 time in total.
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WHAAAAAAA???????? When was Palpatine manipulating the Noghri. DARTH VADER manipulated the Noghri by engineering their planet into a waste land. He then swaped the Noghri commandos for Thrawn's help in disupting Black Sun on Corellia. (Timithy Zahn & Mivheal Stackpole's "side Trip in Tales of the Empire)Illuminatus Primus wrote: As I remember it, Palpatine was manipulating the Noghri as well, and percipitated Thrawn's demise.
Noghri killed him cos they learned it was the Imperiels fault that their world was a barren wastleland
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I don't know how--I theorized that Palpatine's agents arranged for Rukh to meet with members of the conspiracy so he would learn of Thrawn's treachery and thus kill him. All I remember is that the DESB says Palpatine was in control, and was manipulating the Noghri, and he had a hand in Thrawn's termination. It doesn't explain the deal, IIRC.
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That's impossible. It's clear in the book Last Command that the Noghri learned of the treachery with Leia's help, and through that, used Rukh to take down Thrawn.
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But the DESB specifically says Palpatine had Thrawn destroyed.
Rukh was PERMANENTLY and constantly guarding Thrawn--every scene; all the time. He had no oppurtunity to meet with Noghri who were part of Leia's conspiracy.
Palpatine's agents must have set up Rukh to meet with one of the Noghri Death Commandos who knew of the Imperial betrayal. Thus Palpatine destroyed Thrawn. As the Sourcebook says.
Rukh was PERMANENTLY and constantly guarding Thrawn--every scene; all the time. He had no oppurtunity to meet with Noghri who were part of Leia's conspiracy.
Palpatine's agents must have set up Rukh to meet with one of the Noghri Death Commandos who knew of the Imperial betrayal. Thus Palpatine destroyed Thrawn. As the Sourcebook says.
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To be fair, they seem to be elite squadrons with the best pilots and equipment being siphoned from the main ranks to join his group. This is in many ways analogous to Wedge Antilles' status as a full general, who is still only in charge of a single fighter squadron (two, counting the Wraiths).Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Interesting that despite Jagged Fel being a full Colonel, he commands only a few squadrons. AFAIK, a Imperial Lt. Colonel would control a Wing (72 fighters).
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Actually, with Shawnsakr (spl?) as an CEDF observer and such, it appears to be a volunteer-mission.
They are offered the best equipment--navicomputers and up-to-par weapons. Without the former they'd not be able to even to leave their space. Without the latter they'd been chewed to pieces by Skips.
They are offered the best equipment--navicomputers and up-to-par weapons. Without the former they'd not be able to even to leave their space. Without the latter they'd been chewed to pieces by Skips.
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Not the Wraiths. They transferred over to NRI at the end of Solo Command.Master of Ossus wrote:To be fair, they seem to be elite squadrons with the best pilots and equipment being siphoned from the main ranks to join his group. This is in many ways analogous to Wedge Antilles' status as a full general, who is still only in charge of a single fighter squadron (two, counting the Wraiths).
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Wedge Antilles commands the Wraiths. If he wanted them to do something, they'd do it.Darth Yoshi wrote:Not the Wraiths. They transferred over to NRI at the end of Solo Command.Master of Ossus wrote:To be fair, they seem to be elite squadrons with the best pilots and equipment being siphoned from the main ranks to join his group. This is in many ways analogous to Wedge Antilles' status as a full general, who is still only in charge of a single fighter squadron (two, counting the Wraiths).
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He does not command them as of the end of Rogue Squadron: Solo Command. Particularly since they're not even part of his branch of the military. Unless I've just not read some source.
Really, the Rogues and Wraiths were an aberration. Antilles requested to be left in command of just Rogue Squadron, and Wraith Squadron was a pet project he was assigned to. The fact that they were elite or whatnot is irrelevent--Ackbar chose to give in to his requests. The end. The rest is red herring.
Really, the Rogues and Wraiths were an aberration. Antilles requested to be left in command of just Rogue Squadron, and Wraith Squadron was a pet project he was assigned to. The fact that they were elite or whatnot is irrelevent--Ackbar chose to give in to his requests. The end. The rest is red herring.
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They couldn't get a wing of elite fighters?Master of Ossus wrote:
To be fair, they seem to be elite squadrons with the best pilots and equipment being siphoned from the main ranks to join his group.
This is in many ways analogous to Wedge Antilles' status as a full general, who is still only in charge of a single fighter squadron (two, counting the Wraiths).
Antilles was not a full General. And he was a special case who only agreed to a promotion if he stayed with the Rogues.
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Wedge actually did not end up promoted to General until just after the Battle of Bilbringi.
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The Wraiths turn up in a couple of the NJO books, i think it's the Enemy Lines duology by Aaron Allston, Rebel Dream (?) and Rebel Stand.
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The Wraiths appeared briefly in Rebel Dream and a lot during Rebel Stand during a mission to infiltrate Coruscant. Only Piggy, Face, Kell and the horn guy were left of the original team IIRC. The only thing said about the others was Tyria retired, married Kell and lives with their son.
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