How secret was the death star?

[Isolder74]

In the movie Tarkin's words were "this Demonstartion will make this station Operational" or something like that. Destroying a remote slave world would only serve to test wather or not the Weapon works. There did not have to be anyone still on the planet for that. But to be the Finale of his Tarkin Doctrine Tarkin Wanted a core world.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Death Star is stated to be totally black. There's no way this escaped Senate knowledge if it drew every aspect of the Empire's resources.

The Mining Guild of the Clone Wars era occupied billions of planets for mining alone.

The Death Star's very nature implies it was a hidable part of the Imperial military budget. Furthermore, Baktoid Armor was expected to construct the superweapon during the Clone Wars; the Empire dwarfs them in every concievable manner.

The SWTJ has numerous scale and technical errors. Especially regarding its facts about the Falcon (just an example).

In light of the fact both Death Stars were black projects, and that the Baktoid Armor Workshop was expected to build the Death Star duing wartime while fullfilling their other Seperatist contracts. And that is from GL.

As to the destruction of planets pre-Alderaan, In the novel there is a scene where Vader is pondering the destruction of Alderaan. "Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly no influence at all on that map [of the galaxy]." So unless Vader was uninformed (unlikely), the desctruction of an alledged slave planet is just more Rebel propaganda (very likely).

I find it while you want to extrapolate a total revision and speculation thats very teneous regarding the Galactic Empire's scale, you wish to totally toss away a significant EU storyline.

Vader could have meant "military use" or first attack or such. Or, since Tarkin was totally in control, and Vader only arrived later (as seen in ANH), he might have neglected to report to the Emperor's envoy Tarkin's heavy-handed immediate use of the device. His eagerness to use the weapon, especially on an Imperial installation could have alarmed or irritated Palpatine. There's any reason for this, and dimissing EU at will as Rebel propoganda while following one contradictory quote for a scale revision seems inconsistent to me.

[Aaron2]

The Death Star is stated to be totally black."

Can you please provide a quote for that. What does "totally black" mean?

The Mining Guild of the Clone Wars era occupied billions of planets for mining alone.

I've never questioned the size of the Empire or the galactic ecomomy. The question is solely one of the percentage of the economy under direct imperial control (or a corresponding tax rate). The cloud city of Bespin is not under Imperial control, why assume the entire mining guild is? The UN is the earth's government (or as close as we have), yet what is its budget relative to the worlds GDP? I wouldn't be suprised if its budget was smaller than the size of come multi-national businesses. In the Star Wars galaxy, were vast billion world molopolies are par for the course, I wouldn't be suprised if the Trade Federation had a bigger budget than the Republic. It certainly had a bigger army.

Obviously the early Empire/late Republic controled only a small portion of the galactic economy (as seen in EP1-2) while the late Empire (as seen in ROTJ) controlled almost all of it. What we are debating here is the growth curve. I'm simply claiming that the main growth in the Imperial budget was immediately after the disolution of the Senate. Since most canon material is vague (or wrong) on the pre-ANH era, we won't know the truth until EP3 and maybe not even then.

Finally, Vader and the Emperor would have felt a disturbance in the Force if a populated planet was destroyed. They had to know.

Aaron

[Aaron2]

double post. Sorry.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Death Star is stated to be totally black."

Can you please provide a quote for that. What does "totally black" mean?

Top-secret project.

Simply put, they could not have kept the Death Star Project secret if the cost was not a hidable percentage of the military budget.

*snip*

The Empire largely nationalized KDY and Tagge Corp to my knowledge by Yavin. Both of which appear to be larger in scale than Baktoid Armor.

[Aaron2]

Top-secret project.

Simply put, they could not have kept the Death Star Project secret if the cost was not a hidable percentage of the military budget.

I make a distinction between knowledge of an Imperial battlestation and knowledge of an Imperial battlestation with the abiliity to destroy a planet. Perhaps only the nature and existance of the DS's super-laser was a secret. Without it, the DS isn't much to be alarmed about.

The Empire largely nationalized KDY and Tagge Corp to my knowledge by Yavin. Both of which appear to be larger in scale than Baktoid Armor.

Again, its a question of timing. The X-Wing was an imperial design IIRC, and it was brand spanking new at Yavin. Weeks, months or years before Yavin; it makes a difference.


Aaron

[Illuminatus Primus]

I make a distinction between knowledge of an Imperial battlestation and knowledge of an Imperial battlestation with the abiliity to destroy a planet. Perhaps only the nature and existance of the DS's super-laser was a secret. Without it, the DS isn't much to be alarmed about.

It would certainly concern the Rebellion anyway. And the mere mention of the "Death Star" name gave an Imperial officer the impulse to immediately kill Leia--a member of the Imperial Senate! The very code-name was secret--the whole project was very secret. And it isn't just about not causing a fuss--if it is a huge percentage of Imperial resources, it becomes much easier for the Rebels to gain information on the project. Its much easier to hide "leak-through" and "fund funneling" than a huge allocation of resources. Yet the Rebels never found its location and only learned of its existance through difficulty. In one of the "Tales..." series, I believe Garm Bel Iblis discoveres with someone else the very existance of the Death Star project--it was highly classified. The Death Star was even black after its construction--the Empire disavowed all knowledge of its existance and actually claimed Alderaan blew itself up!

Again, its a question of timing. The X-Wing was an imperial design IIRC, and it was brand spanking new at Yavin. Weeks, months or years before Yavin; it makes a difference.

Red herring. The X-Wing was merely developed as a prototype by Incom--several executives and engineers escapes with schematics for a possibly production version. The design was never procured by the Empire.

The point is, the Empire as the Republic outfought and outmilitarized the Seperatists--and the remnants of their corporate entities were largely sold off to Republic corporate loyalists or nationalized. Baktoid Armor, a Trade Fed partner, could be expected to build the Death Star during wartime (and just the Geonosians, too) while fullfilling all the normal war contracts without missing a beat.

The Republic outproduced and outfought Baktoid's Trade Fed and many other corporate organs of similar size. And the Empire has significantly militarized since the Clone Wars.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Look at the movies. AOTC states the Genosians were planning to build the Death Star. I seriously doubt they have even a tiny portion of the resourses of the Empire.

[Aaron2]

The point is, the Empire as the Republic outfought and outmilitarized the Seperatists--and the remnants of their corporate entities were largely sold off to Republic corporate loyalists or nationalized. Baktoid Armor, a Trade Fed partner, could be expected to build the Death Star during wartime (and just the Geonosians, too) while fullfilling all the normal war contracts without missing a beat.

The Republic outproduced and outfought Baktoid's Trade Fed and many other corporate organs of similar size. And the Empire has significantly militarized since the Clone Wars.

Yes, the Republic/Empire beat the Seperatists, but we don't know if they did so due to outproducing them. Remember, not only did the Republic control the Jedi but the Seperatists were controlled by the Emperor's henceman. Hardly a fair fight. The Clone army seen at Geonosis was only of a tiny fraction of the projected size of the Empire's armed forces at its peak (ROTJ).

How long would it have taken for the Geonosians to build a DS? No one knows.

I still stick to my contension that the main Imperial growth occured after the disollusion of the Senate. The legal hoops the Imperials went through supressing the rebellion on Raulteer (sp) plus the fear of "sympathy" in the Senate speak of an Empire that isn't quite in complete control.

EP 3 will provide some light on the subject.

Aaron

[Illuminatus Primus]

Alright, so you honestly believe that the Republic's wartime output was less than the Geonosians?

As for how long? I sincerely hope you don't think it'd be decades or such. Galaxy-wide offensives and conflicts have always stretched in the two-to-three year range. I can't imagine it taking longer than two years. And remember, GL says the Geonosians were going to construct it.

It becomes next to impossible to hide a project that large of a percentage of their budget.

The vast lump of circumstancial evidence suggests the Death Star was insignificant. Including a quote from WEG that 20 Sector Groups of materiel was devoted to the Death Star project, while the Empire has thousands of Sector Groups in ANH.

[PainRack]

No direct confirmation means that's what happened.

They never say that Alderaan was the first to be blown up. No one knew about it--that's WHY they built the DS there, and thus blowing it up amounted to no real show of force.

The DS was constructed from raw materials on site--it had no real shipyard. Thus the low-tech nitpick (w/out evidence, I'll add) is irrelevent.

The slaves just helped process raw materials and due simple droid-supervision and special jobs--no matter how much automation, there would always be some menial sentient labour that a couple million slaves and criminals would do well for.

Furthermore, your arguement is based on false-premises. The fact it was built at a penal colony never means it was built without high cost, which the EU is quite frank about. Not having to pay some workers wouldn't make it cheap by far. Regardless of how it was built, it would have to be hidden in budget anyway.

No.But the novelisation and radio drama all tends to the belief that the Death Star became operational and that Alderaan was its first test planet to be attacked.Yes,the penal colony could still have been destroyed but I tend to disbelieve the penal colony ideology.


Let's face it.Slave labour isn't a good labour source to draw upon.Even with the automation of the Empire.Without the existing industrial infrastructure present,which one would not expect to see at a penal colony,it just boggers the mind to think of a Death Star being built.

[Aaron2]

No.But the novelisation and radio drama all tends to the belief that the Death Star became operational and that Alderaan was its first test planet to be attacked.Yes,the penal colony could still have been destroyed but I tend to disbelieve the penal colony ideology.

I'm curious. Where was this whole penal colony thing written?


Aaron

[PainRack]

By the evil one.KJA.

[Illuminatus Primus]

*snip*

No direct contradiction = subjuctive discardment of Official sources.