Executor bridge windows vs. A-Wing Fighter

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-04 03:57pm

Axis Kast wrote:I do believe that the "Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels" by Bill Smith argues that Arvil Crynid did indeed slam his A-Wing into the Executor bridge on purpose - if that changes anything, which I'm assuming it does not.

Nothing important.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-06-04 04:02pm

Actually according to several sources i read, The RotJ novelisation in perticular, Executor was in the middle of moving closer to the battle when the bridge was hit. It takes a few minutes to transfer control to the secondard bridge and those few minutes where enough to over shoot it's intended position and crash into the DS. Also, though this is just a theory, i think that the Executor was moving to protect the DS from fighter runs into the superstructure but this is just a theory.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-04 04:12pm

A few notes: IIRC, someone once did an estimate of how fast the X wings were going in ROTJ based on how long ISD flyovers took. The end result was ~3 km/sec, so your estimate seems reasonable.

I have an image on my hard drive showing the impact directly after it penetrated the bridge, showing what happened once the Awing kept going and it's fuel and missiles went off: It came out on the other side. There is a very visable jet of white shooting out the neck and the side of the face corresponding with the A wing's impact. Anyone with hosting I can send this too and have it put up, contact me.

I question the A win'g's mass there, a F/A-18 is ~30 tons http://navysite.de/planes/f18.htm

Course it is a bit bigger, but SW ships have alot more on them (the density fo the fuel alone to power them and fit in that space should really up the mass)

But good work.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-04 04:15pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Actually according to several sources i read, The RotJ novelisation in perticular, Executor was in the middle of moving closer to the battle when the bridge was hit. It takes a few minutes to transfer control to the secondard bridge and those few minutes where enough to over shoot it's intended position and crash into the DS. Also, though this is just a theory, i think that the Executor was moving to protect the DS from fighter runs into the superstructure but this is just a theory.

Engine room SOP for an aircraft carrier if contact with the bridge is lost during a battle is as follows:

1) Curse loudly and at great length
2) Simultaneously open up the throttles on full
3) Go forward, balls to the wall, to get the hell out of there, as any ship in your way will get out of it, or be sunk as you keep going

I would fully expect the Executor to do the same thing. Only problem is that it had orientated so teh DS2 was in the way, and it wasn't budging.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-04 04:22pm

Axis Kast wrote:I do believe that the "Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels" by Bill Smith argues that Arvil Crynid did indeed slam his A-Wing into the Executor bridge on purpose - if that changes anything, which I'm assuming it does not.

It would only proved that Arvil floored it.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-04 04:27pm

Ender wrote:A few notes: IIRC, someone once did an estimate of how fast the X wings were going in ROTJ based on how long ISD flyovers took. The end result was ~3 km/sec, so your estimate seems reasonable.

The A-Wing is apparently 25-33% faster than the X-wing, so it looks like my estimate was pretty close.

I question the A win'g's mass there, a F/A-18 is ~30 tons http://navysite.de/planes/f18.htm

Course it is a bit bigger, but SW ships have alot more on them (the density fo the fuel alone to power them and fit in that space should really up the mass)

But good work.

Thank you.

The only mass quote I had handy for the A-Wing was a flavor text passage from an old WEG SWRPG adventure saying that the A-Wing was ten tons, so that's what I used. If anybody has a better mass quote for me, I'll be happy to recalc.

CorSec · Post by **CorSec** » 2003-06-04 05:41pm

Warlord Zsinj wrote:Why didn't Admiral Ackbar celebrate like the rest of the other people aboard Home One when the Executor got hit?

Two reasons: One, he was relieved that the Empire's second heaviest hitter had been taken out. Two, he had the rest of the battle to contend with.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-06-04 08:50pm

First off, Ackbar sagged back into his chair, to me, as a heavy weight was off his shoulders. (That's one hell of a weight.). Also, anyone that argues that the pilot intentionally slammed the A-Wing into the bridge is a moron.

The scenes are quite clear. First the X-Wing directly behind him gets blasted. As soon as the explosion from the bolts and the fighter go off, the ship began barrel rolling. The pilot was in a close up yelling with his eyes shut. The novelisation makes no mention, in fact it was taken down by torpedo hits. Either way. Iceberg, I don't know shit when it comes to math, so I can't help ya there. Heh. It would seem the ship was probably going full throttle though, and I would assume without going back and watching that the SSD was moving forward as well to engage any rebel ships seeing how it impacted into the DS II.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-04 10:12pm

The sw.com databank section on the SSD confirms what we've been saying for years: The SSD, once it lost the bridge, was "embraced" by the DS2's gravity well.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-04 11:31pm

Lord Poe wrote:The sw.com databank section on the SSD confirms what we've been saying for years: The SSD, once it lost the bridge, was "embraced" by the DS2's gravity well.

I thought that didn't work based on the speed at which it descended and the mass of the DS.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-06-05 12:52am

err.. isn't the total only 8e10 joules? a kiloton would be 4.185e12 joules.

That would be only ninteen tons, not kilotons.

Plus, you're still ignoring the momentum of the A-wing (its a physical impactor, remember. Refer to Mike Wong's shield page for the difference between beam weapons vs projectiles, and the role of momentum in the TESB asteroid incident.)

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-05 12:55am

Connor MacLeod wrote:err.. isn't the total only 8e10 joules? a kiloton would be 4.185e12 joules.

That would be only ninteen tons, not kilotons.

Oh, bollocks.

Plus, you're still ignoring the momentum of the A-wing (its a physical impactor, remember. Refer to Mike Wong's shield page for the difference between beam weapons vs projectiles, and the role of momentum in the TESB asteroid incident.)

Yes, mea culpa. I neglected the momentum because I couldn't remember the formula to calculate it.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-06-05 12:55am

Iceberg wrote: Also, as I said, this is actually a conservative number, because it doesn't include the energy released by various energetic components of the A-Wing cooking off (concussion missiles, tibanna gas for the lasers, the engines, the power core, the hyperdrive, for examples), which might increase the result by as much as an order of magnitude.

The A-wing was still mostly intact when it impacted, IIRC. I doubt it would have contributed to the penetration at all. It might contribute after the fact to the damage we saw immediately afterwards, though.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-06-05 12:56am

Iceberg wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:err.. isn't the total only 8e10 joules? a kiloton would be 4.185e12 joules.

That would be only ninteen tons, not kilotons.
Oh, bollocks.

Plus, you're still ignoring the momentum of the A-wing (its a physical impactor, remember. Refer to Mike Wong's shield page for the difference between beam weapons vs projectiles, and the role of momentum in the TESB asteroid incident.)
Yes, mea culpa. I neglected the momentum because I couldn't remember the formula to calculate it.

Mass x velocity, IIRC

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-05 12:57am

OK.

40 million kg*m/sec.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-06-05 01:04am

The velocity figure might be accurate (I think it could possibly be higher, though.. maybe it can be observed later) but I question the mass figure. Where are you pulling this from, exactly?

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-05 01:16am

Connor MacLeod wrote:The velocity figure might be accurate (I think it could possibly be higher, though.. maybe it can be observed later) but I question the mass figure. Where are you pulling this from, exactly?

Like I said before, flavor text from an old SWRPG module (blasted shoddy memory). If I had anything more authoritative, I'd have used that instead...

If anybody can either come up with the name of the module or a more authoritative mass figure for the A-Wing, I'll be happy to recalc.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-06-05 04:49am

Iceberg wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:The velocity figure might be accurate (I think it could possibly be higher, though.. maybe it can be observed later) but I question the mass figure. Where are you pulling this from, exactly?
Like I said before, flavor text from an old SWRPG module (blasted shoddy memory). If I had anything more authoritative, I'd have used that instead...

If anybody can either come up with the name of the module or a more authoritative mass figure for the A-Wing, I'll be happy to recalc.

Do what Mike did for the Falcon on the Millenium Falcon kinematics page. Assume Iron composition, 95% empty, and calculate the volume of the fighter. Although if its anything like the Acclamator, this is probably neglecting the mass added ot the ship by fuel density (which is much denser than the ship itself, IIRC its "orders of magnitude" denser.)

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-06-06 12:40am

Hm, it might be possible to determine the velocity of the fighter from watching as it approaches in the "too late!" scene. It'd require all that subtended angle stuff that [BL]Phalanx was using for B5 acceleration figures, but it'd produce a more verifiable figure than a 4 km/s guess.