Had the Battle of Endor gone differently...

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-09-15 10:19pm

Here's a thought for everyone: suppose Luke and the Emperor died in the Battle of Endor while Vader survived. The question is, could Darth Vader hold the Empire together after the Emperor's death, or does everyone feel that the fragmentation of the Empire after Palpatine's destruction was inevitable?

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-09-15 10:28pm

No, Vader couldn't have held the entire Empire together as it would have splintered due to the rebel victory. But he would be leading what remained of the Imperium in a campaign agaisnt the break-aways.

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-09-15 10:34pm

If Vader live and had turn his son to his cause, then the empire would survived.. and instead of wasting his time on Deathstar, he just would have buildt more SSD.......

Morte · Post by **Morte** » 2002-09-16 03:03am

I doubt he could have held the Empire together. Vader was nothing[/i] compared to the Emperor in terms of political manipulation. Vader was merely the Emperor's 'enforcer', he simply didn't have the subtlety or tact to hold an Empire together.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-16 04:22am

To hold the Empire together Vader would need to use the same force tactics to boost moral, combat efficiency and loyalty that the Emperor used. He might be strong enough to do so, but I'm not real sure.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-16 07:05am

If he was smart he'd go running for Thrawn

If not it would fall apart

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-16 08:47am

He seemed fairly certain he could rule the galaxy in the Emperor's place though.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-16 10:58am

If he was smart he'd go running for Thrawn

But would Thrawn serve under Vader? Sure he could help Vader hold the Empire together; no one would stand up to the two of them. I doubt he'd be willing to serve the man who had just pulled of a coup. Thrawn was very very loyal to the Empire and the Emperor. He would go after the man who killed his liege.

The big question is could Vader have concealed it from everyone, thrawn included. If he could he would be the new emperor, no doubt about it. He was seen as the Emperor's right hand man. He could have used his authority to hold the empire together. If he can't it would simply be the same as before, Warlords tearing everthing apart. The Rebellion would be crushed without Luke.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-09-16 02:08pm

Vader, although powerful, is not a figure that would gain the title of emperor, not without many warlords breaking away first anyway. He couldn't take the place of the emperor but he would be in control of the most powerful faction.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2002-09-16 07:25pm

Vader survives, so I guess that implies that the DS II wasn't blown up with him on it. In that case, according to KJA, IG-88 would end up ruling the galaxy. Damn KJA.

IronicTwist · Post by **IronicTwist** » 2002-09-16 07:26pm

Morte wrote:I doubt he could have held the Empire together. Vader was nothing[/i] compared to the Emperor in terms of political manipulation. Vader was merely the Emperor's 'enforcer', he simply didn't have the subtlety or tact to hold an Empire together.

I agree that the political manipulation was necessary to transform the Republic into the Empire. However, once created, the Empire ran more on brute force than finesse. It's clear that the Imperial military feared/respected Vader in his own right, and not just as the Emperor's errand boy.

Remember that, despite their victory, the Rebels weren't doing so well by the time of RotJ. They didn't have a planetary base anymore. They were being hunted by the Imperial Navy. The Endor fleet was the biggest fleet they could muster, and it still couldn't hold it's own against the Imp ships guarding the Death Star (before DS starting using the superlaser). Vader would have been a very real threat, had he survived.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-09-16 08:55pm

If Vader had turned Luke to the Dark Side, they might be able to hold the Empire together, with the force. I say that, because the Force can be used to control things, and many of the Imperial warlords weren't skilled in it.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2002-09-16 09:29pm

Vader couldn't hold the empire together. He was just a toll of the emperor and wasnt smart enough to do any thing like rule the empire. Even if he killed the emperor, palpy would just come back in a clone and show Vader the true power of the dark side.

Morte · Post by **Morte** » 2002-09-16 09:42pm

IronicTwist wrote: I agree that the political manipulation was necessary to transform the Republic into the Empire. However, once created, the Empire ran more on brute force than finesse. It's clear that the Imperial military feared/respected Vader in his own right, and not just as the Emperor's errand boy.

True, Vader was greatly feared... but I think that that fear could only really manifest itself strongly with Vader's personal presence. The Emperor could send Vader anywhere in the galaxy to enfore order among wavering officers if he needed to. That was why Vader was effective.

If Vader had to rule the galaxy from Coruscant he would not be able to be everywhere at once, in fact he'd probably have to stay at Coruscant most of the time. While the officers in the navy would fear him and perhaps respect him the fact that he was half a galaxy away would mean that some of the more greedy and ruthless ones would take the chance of breaking away from the Empire. Like what happened after Endor anyway, perhaps at a slower rate.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-16 10:25pm

Vader dies when IG-88 turns off the life support. So had the Emporer died and Vader survived (regardless of what side he choose) Vader would die soon after the DS2 was completed. Actually IG-88 would have let the DS2 be completed, and Vader might not have been on board by then. But IG-88 goes about taking over the Galaxy and with the DS2 fully shielded and droid ship escorts, the Empire and the Rebellion both flounder and die.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-16 10:32pm

Leaving IG-88 asside.

Here is a way that Vader could have taken the reigns of the Empire and managed to keep it intact. His first goal would be to find every storehouse of the Emporer's goods. Once that was acomplished Vader would soon come across the Guardian of Wayland. Vader can spin doctor a story in which Luke kills the Emporer and both die. Vader of course steps up to take control. Vader now has a dark jedi at his side to assist in keeping the Empire under control. But that is not all Vader relies on. He can make effective use of the various Emporer's Hands such as Mara Jade to assasinate the most likely potential warlords. The message will be clear, try and leave and die. Vader's next step would be taking control of the military while instilling loyalty. By this time Vader has seen what Thrawn can do. What Thrawn is doing in the Unknown Regions is important, but holding the Empire together is even more so. Vader can bring Thrawn back into "civilization" and charge Thrawn with keeping the military loyal and effective. If Vader is smart, he will give Thrawn a free reign on the military.

Vader now has lieutenants to keep order, the ultimate super weapon, and the best military strategist there is to keep the military under control.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-17 12:21am

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't the Tales of/from... series have their status downgraded. If someone could clarify that please feel free to.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-17 12:23am

Stormbringer wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't the Tales of/from... series have their status downgraded. If someone could clarify that please feel free to.

Sort of. The ones involving Boba Fett & family have been downgraded to the extent that his origin is no longer accurate, but the rest of the books and even the rest of his stories are considered to be part of the continuity (ie. his eventual escape from the Sarlaac, his capture of the Butcher of Malasat, etc.).

Morte · Post by **Morte** » 2002-09-17 12:37am

Alyeska wrote:Vader now has lieutenants to keep order, the ultimate super weapon, and the best military strategist there is to keep the military under control.

Would Thrawn perhaps want the Empire for himself, contending that Vader is too interested in power alone, not in saving the galaxy as Thrawn seems to think he is doing? I remember in one of the Thraw trilogy books Thrawn tells one of his officers that he is not Vader, he does not kill for no reason. It seems that Thrawn doesn't hold Vader in very high esteem...

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-09-17 12:53am

True he doesn't hold Vader's tactical ability in high esteem, but on the other hand he clearly was respectfull of him. What I mean he never considered C'boath a threat to him because he was erratic, however Vader pissed off? Only the Emperor could contol that maelstorm, and Thrawn knew that while the Emperor lived, and he was in his favour, he had nothing to fear from Vader.

Morte · Post by **Morte** » 2002-09-17 01:05am

Crown wrote:Only the Emperor could contol that maelstorm, and Thrawn knew that while the Emperor lived, and he was in his favour, he had nothing to fear from Vader.

I though we were talking about when the Emperor was dead?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-17 09:57am

Morte wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Vader now has lieutenants to keep order, the ultimate super weapon, and the best military strategist there is to keep the military under control.
Would Thrawn perhaps want the Empire for himself, contending that Vader is too interested in power alone, not in saving the galaxy as Thrawn seems to think he is doing? I remember in one of the Thraw trilogy books Thrawn tells one of his officers that he is not Vader, he does not kill for no reason. It seems that Thrawn doesn't hold Vader in very high esteem...

Thats the exact reason why Vader gives Thrawn complete control of the military. Vader will be to pre occupied with trying to hold the Empire together that he can't afford trying to exert control over the military besides possibly the DS2. He needs Thrawn to control the military. With a free hand to reshape the military, Thrawn does not have the need to worry about massive interferance from Vader. If anything Thrawn will continue to manipulate Vader as he had been doing to the Emporer. Vader is to valuable alive as a figurehead behind the Empire, someone to be feared and respected at the same time. Thrawn ought to be smart enough to know how to use the situation to further the goals of the Empire. Notice how Thrawn had chosen Paleon (sp), someone who truly believed in the New Order, someone who did value soldiers lives, someone with a conscious. Thrawn for the most part seems to be honorable, and through manipulation of Vader (and with the fact Vader has less choice then the Emporer did) the Empire might advance at a faster rate then it had ever before. Imagine the Rebellion suddenly loosing all legitimacy when reforms and introduced.

Morte · Post by **Morte** » 2002-09-18 03:18am

So basically you're saying that Vader won't be holding the Empire together, Thrawn will...

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-18 08:42am

So basically you're saying that Vader won't be holding the Empire together, Thrawn will...

*Nods, Thrawn knows what he's doing, he was born to command and belive me... it shows

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-18 02:45pm

Morte wrote:So basically you're saying that Vader won't be holding the Empire together, Thrawn will...

No, Vader is holding the civilian aspect of the Empire together and keeping the warlords under control while Thrawn improves the military and makes it fanatically loyal. Vader and Thrawn will be manipulating eachother, and with some of the changes IMO would happen, the Rebel alliance would loose its entire support base.

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Had the Battle of Endor gone differently...

could Darth Vader have held the Empire together after Palpatine's death?

Had the Battle of Endor gone differently...

what about luke