Millenium Falcon: Firepower?

[Isolder74]

If they had been, then Han wouldn't have needed to worry about dumping his Kessel spice load and pissing Jabba off, since he could have hidden the spice in the shielded holds. Either spice is extremely hard to shield from sensors (possible, but I don't think the EU books say anything about that)... or the secondary holds aren't shielded.

There are six lockers all-togther and togther they have 20% the volume as Solo's Main Hold


Simply put Solo had more Spice than shielded holds

Not quite. It doesn't say that Jabba was mad at Han for dumping part of his load of spice. He was mad for dumping his cargo of spice. Technically, that could be subject to interpretation either way, but it makes more sense to assume that he dumped his entire load.

If i remember right Solo had moved his spice from his shielded hold to accomidate another even more illegal cargo(not sure what it was have to look it up) that was not really profitable. He was then forced to dump his spice load in his escape pods to keep from getting arrested. He then tried to go back after the "heat" was off an retreive it but the Imp's had found is stash so was forced to leave.

the Falcon's Power generator was upgraded as well as the engines. The Falcon's power core was not standard. The Quad lasers come with their own dedicated power generators. Also Solo enlarged the Falcon's "fuel" tank to help accomidate the fuel drain that his super engines require. needless to say the Falcon(without its sensor shielded hold) can not carry as much cargo as a stock YT-1300 freighter. for a regular shipping company that would be bad but the point of the Falcon is smuggling High value cargo into illegal or shady areas so the loss of some cargo space to make the ship better able to deleiver its cargo would be a acceptable trade off.

[Slartibartfast]

The reason for existance of the quad-lasers doesn't affect in the slightest the observed power levels. Congratulations on a fine red herring.

I agree. Saying that the purpose of weapons doesn't affect their power IS a red herring. 40 watt lasers anyone?

[Slartibartfast]

All within the YT-1300 frame, without taking out the cargo space (kind of hard to be a successful smuggler if you don't have the cargo space).

Not a problem acutal as its allread in one of the Han Solo books that he did a second cargo hold to make room for everything that most of the frieghters normaly carry

Also, the basic definition of smuggler means that he transports very valuable, illegal cargo (unlike lawful traders who deal with safe bulk items). So lower cargo space isn't such a limitation.

[Slartibartfast]

and I'm not so sure I'd be comfortable hiding in them when some bored stormie might punch the jettison button in the cockpit just for laughs.

Why not? The worst thing that could happen to you is that you fall to the floor of the docking bay...

This, IMHO, points to the MF depending still for the most part on the main cargo hold for their money-making business.

What's the point of smuggling illegal goods if they are just as valuable per unit of weight as legal goods? While other traders carry dozens of tons of grain, Han would be making twice the profit by trading 500kg of rare illegal spices.

The likelihood of Han installing a main cargo hold and a larger power source/engine is slim, considering that there's not enough room for that, even if you cut out any quarters they had (which were probably small to begin with).

Why does it have to be larger? Why not just newer? Or just change the cheapass version for a more expensive model.

[Slartibartfast]

You are taking Solo's reasons for the installation of weaponry on the Falcon, and using this you are overriding what we've actually seen these weapons do: blow TIEs into pieces, just like what fighter weapons do that are rated under 10KT.

We have canon firepower evidence, and you're throwing it to the wind because Solo ought to have powerful guns.

You have canon evidence of firepower *lower limit*. It's something that is used widely in the whole site. It means that if you see me killing a rabbit with a .50 caliber elephant gun, doesn't mean that it can't kill anything larger than a rabbit. Sorry.

[greenmm]

and I'm not so sure I'd be comfortable hiding in them when some bored stormie might punch the jettison button in the cockpit just for laughs.

Why not? The worst thing that could happen to you is that you fall to the floor of the docking bay...

Which is bad when you're trying to hide from said stormies...

This, IMHO, points to the MF depending still for the most part on the main cargo hold for their money-making business.

What's the point of smuggling illegal goods if they are just as valuable per unit of weight as legal goods? While other traders carry dozens of tons of grain, Han would be making twice the profit by trading 500kg of rare illegal spices.

But considering how hard it's supposed to be to get said spice, how hard it is to get a ship into Kessel space undetected, and the "get-rich-quick-then-blow-it-before-the-next-job" lifestyle that Solo seems to live, wouldn't you expect him to haul as much spice as the Falcon could carry?

The likelihood of Han installing a main cargo hold and a larger power source/engine is slim, considering that there's not enough room for that, even if you cut out any quarters they had (which were probably small to begin with).

Why does it have to be larger? Why not just newer? Or just change the cheapass version for a more expensive model.

Doesn't always work that way. I could take, for example, a 1980's Corvette and replace its 5 L V8 with a larger 5.7 L V8... but only because it was designed for that option. Were I to try and fit that 5 L V8, let alone the 5.7 L engine, into my first car (1985 Dodge Aries K-car), it wouldn't fit without massive modifications -- like moving the dashboard and console so that it was driven from the back seat -- because it's not designed for it. I probably couldn't even replace the old 2.5L 4-cyl with a V6, because of the limited space available.

That's the kind of problem they have to look at for the MF. They might be able to "soup-up" the factory engine, but at the cost of a reduced component lifespan, greatly increased fuel consumption, or drawing a higher power load off the power system. For the kind of speed upgrade the MF seems to have, it's more likely that the engine from a more massive ship was added (more thrust against same weight = faster accel = faster max speed when fuel runs out). But, since a larger ship will have more space dedicated to the engines, that means it'll take up more space in the MF (especially with the extra reinforcement to the frame to handle the increased thrust that exceeds the frame's original design tolerance). Same goes for power generation: a more powerful power generator is almost certain to be larger, use more fuel, or use a more powerful (and thus more expensive and harder to store) fuel -- and the first option is more likely to appeal to Solo. And don't forget the hyperdrive, which probably had to come again from a more massive ship, or it uses more fuel/power than the standard YT-1300 model, in order for the MF to be so fast. Same goes for the weapon systems and sensors. And don't forget, we're talking about major structural changes to make sure these new systems don't tear off their mounts, new/upgraded power distribution systems to carry power for the upgraded engines/weapons/sensors, upgraded repeater/display screens for the sensors (otherwise it'd be like hooking a modern pusle-doppler radar to a 1950's "blip" screen), and the other modifications needed.

It would be a lot easier if Lucasarts had come out with official blueprints for both the MF and for a standard YT-1300...

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I'll do my explanation of the Falcon. Solo probably replaced the engine with something more powerful, and possibly added an enlarged warp core, or added additional power cells in the cargo holds. Perhaps, they replaced some ofthe life-support systems, considering that with a faster hypredrive, the Falcon could make shorter trips. But, that's pretty dumb, so the life support might have been left alone. The shields were probably greatly imporved, as the Falcon took a hit from a megaton-level TL shot in TESB. However, in ANH, 4 TIE fighters almost took out the shields. I was thinking that when the Falcon left the DS hangar, the shields had to be recharged, and were still recharging during the scene. I'd probably say the shields are probably as good as shields on a ship 10 times the Falcon's size. Also, considering Han and Chewbacca were the only crew members, and an origional YT-1300 probably had more bunks, so some of the bunks could have been replaced with power cells for the ship systems. Being a smuggler, Han could have gotten hold of many black-market items, and put them on his ship. The smuggling compartments may have been coated with some special coating to block scans. Since they carried illegal cargo, it makes sense for them to be able to easily jettison. The concussion missiles also could have been an illegal addition, and possibly could fit many sizes and types of missiles. Now, onto the cannons. They are probably backed by many additional power cells, and with many places to put these cells, I'd say to could reach into the dozen kiloton range at maximum power, with possible other weapon emplacements. The armor has obviously been enchanced, and exposed wires are seen on the hull. I was tinking that they were recently added for enchanced sensors and other systems, and that many access panels were removed for easier repairs.

Now, feel free to nitpick my expanation, and you can find deckplans of a YT-1300 at http://www.deckplans.00sf.com/, and read more about the Faclon at Robert Brown's page.

[greenmm]

I'll do my explanation of the Falcon. Solo probably replaced the engine with something more powerful, and possibly added an enlarged warp core, or added additional power cells in the cargo holds. Perhaps, they replaced some ofthe life-support systems, considering that with a faster hypredrive, the Falcon could make shorter trips. But, that's pretty dumb, so the life support might have been left alone. The shields were probably greatly imporved, as the Falcon took a hit from a megaton-level TL shot in TESB. However, in ANH, 4 TIE fighters almost took out the shields. I was thinking that when the Falcon left the DS hangar, the shields had to be recharged, and were still recharging during the scene. I'd probably say the shields are probably as good as shields on a ship 10 times the Falcon's size. Also, considering Han and Chewbacca were the only crew members, and an origional YT-1300 probably had more bunks, so some of the bunks could have been replaced with power cells for the ship systems. Being a smuggler, Han could have gotten hold of many black-market items, and put them on his ship. The smuggling compartments may have been coated with some special coating to block scans. Since they carried illegal cargo, it makes sense for them to be able to easily jettison. The concussion missiles also could have been an illegal addition, and possibly could fit many sizes and types of missiles. Now, onto the cannons. They are probably backed by many additional power cells, and with many places to put these cells, I'd say to could reach into the dozen kiloton range at maximum power, with possible other weapon emplacements. The armor has obviously been enchanced, and exposed wires are seen on the hull. I was tinking that they were recently added for enchanced sensors and other systems, and that many access panels were removed for easier repairs.

Now, feel free to nitpick my expanation, and you can find deckplans of a YT-1300 at http://www.deckplans.00sf.com/, and read more about the Faclon at Robert Brown's page.

Interesting deckplans, actually. However, this YT1300 Tradesman... did he create this one, or did he have some sort of "official"/canon source for creating the deckplan? Because, IMHO, it looks like he pretty much copied his MF deckplan with a smaller engine.

Basically, the only difference I can see between your explanation and mine is where the extra space is coming from, and what tradeoffs Han had to make to cram those improvements into his hull.

[Knife]

Who says that all the cargo space besides the main hold is not filled up with extra's. The only interior shots in the movies that deal with cargo space is the main hold, but we know there are more. So extra equipment could be stored, built, whatever there. The shield issue in ANH and ESB can be explained by in ANH the shields were spread around the ship to defend against multiple vectors. And in ESB, all the threats were behind the Falcon and the shields could have been cocentated in that area.

[Slartibartfast]

and I'm not so sure I'd be comfortable hiding in them when some bored stormie might punch the jettison button in the cockpit just for laughs.

Why not? The worst thing that could happen to you is that you fall to the floor of the docking bay...

Which is bad when you're trying to hide from said stormies...

So you're afraid to hide in the secret compartment, because some bored trooper might press a button and expose you? As opposed to not hiding there at all in the first place? I don't get it.

I really doubt there's a button in plain sight labeled "secret cargo bay jettison" with an arrow pointing to the compartment.

This, IMHO, points to the MF depending still for the most part on the main cargo hold for their money-making business.

What's the point of smuggling illegal goods if they are just as valuable per unit of weight as legal goods? While other traders carry dozens of tons of grain, Han would be making twice the profit by trading 500kg of rare illegal spices.

But considering how hard it's supposed to be to get said spice, how hard it is to get a ship into Kessel space undetected, and the "get-rich-quick-then-blow-it-before-the-next-job" lifestyle that Solo seems to live, wouldn't you expect him to haul as much spice as the Falcon could carry?

That seemed to be the problem in the first place. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to jettison it - what's the point of a secret compartment if you're gonna jettison everything in it everytime there's a *risk* of being caught?

The likelihood of Han installing a main cargo hold and a larger power source/engine is slim, considering that there's not enough room for that, even if you cut out any quarters they had (which were probably small to begin with).

Why does it have to be larger? Why not just newer? Or just change the cheapass version for a more expensive model.

Doesn't always work that way.

That doesn't equal "it can't work that way". Stating that there's a possibility that it should be larger, doesn't mean it can't be the same size or smaller.

... snipped examples of it not working that way...

In the case of the MF, the downside of its modifications seem to be the need of lots of maintenance, some unreliability, etc. Larger size is only *one* option. You could also throw away some unwanted component that came from factory and is not necessary. And the devices of a SW starship don't appear to be mechanical, so there wouldn't be the need of doing all kinds of adaptation. Plugging a new hyperdrive could be accomplished simply by using a round-to-square convertor, hardwiring some stuff, re-calibrating certain parameters of the device, etc. Not necessarily welding lots of pipes, swivels, etc.

It would be a lot easier if Lucasarts had come out with official blueprints for both the MF and for a standard YT-1300...

Heh, yes that's true.

[Slartibartfast]

Anyway, what's the problem? If a ship is dedicated to cargo, it means it has lots of space. The hyperdrive might be twice as large, taking up some of the cargo space. Since the original hyperdrive and power cells and whatever would be equivalent to about 10% of the cargo space, they would lose another 10% of the cargo space, which isn't a big loss.

The way everyone's making it sound is like a new hyperdrive would take half of the cargo bay which is silly. If the original bay can carry about 100 tons, why not use 10 or so tons (or in cubic meters or whatever) to improve equipment? Big deal!

[Isolder74]

Anyway, what's the problem? If a ship is dedicated to cargo, it means it has lots of space. The hyperdrive might be twice as large, taking up some of the cargo space. Since the original hyperdrive and power cells and whatever would be equivalent to about 10% of the cargo space, they would lose another 10% of the cargo space, which isn't a big loss.

The way everyone's making it sound is like a new hyperdrive would take half of the cargo bay which is silly. If the original bay can carry about 100 tons, why not use 10 or so tons (or in cubic meters or whatever) to improve equipment? Big deal!

Good points the Falcon isn't HUGE but it does have alot of interior space. the area seen in the movies is NOT the main CARGO HOLD. It may be refered to as the main hold but their is a larger hold in front of the engine area. it has a large caro lift near the center and i would imagine the door is there for something besides show.

[Isolder74]

and I'm not so sure I'd be comfortable hiding in them when some bored stormie might punch the jettison button in the cockpit just for laughs.

How would the stormie even know where the button is in the first place if the holds are hidden its probablaly a good bet the "dump" button would be too.

[Howedar]

You are taking Solo's reasons for the installation of weaponry on the Falcon, and using this you are overriding what we've actually seen these weapons do: blow TIEs into pieces, just like what fighter weapons do that are rated under 10KT.

We have canon firepower evidence, and you're throwing it to the wind because Solo ought to have powerful guns.

You have canon evidence of firepower *lower limit*. It's something that is used widely in the whole site. It means that if you see me killing a rabbit with a .50 caliber elephant gun, doesn't mean that it can't kill anything larger than a rabbit. Sorry.

I have canon evidence of a yield, and I have official evidence of a maximum yield. Try again, newbie.

[Slartibartfast]

You are taking Solo's reasons for the installation of weaponry on the Falcon, and using this you are overriding what we've actually seen these weapons do: blow TIEs into pieces, just like what fighter weapons do that are rated under 10KT.

We have canon firepower evidence, and you're throwing it to the wind because Solo ought to have powerful guns.

You have canon evidence of firepower *lower limit*. It's something that is used widely in the whole site. It means that if you see me killing a rabbit with a .50 caliber elephant gun, doesn't mean that it can't kill anything larger than a rabbit. Sorry.

I have canon evidence of a yield, and I have official evidence of a maximum yield. Try again, newbie.

Newbie my ass. Now you're cleverly blending your first claim of "canon" with your second claim of "official". Newbieness isn't a matter of tenure, it's a way of thinking, so stop doing it.

Did I say you DIDN'T have an official *higher* limit? I said you didn't have a CANON higher limit. Learn to fucking read.

[Akm72]

Good points the Falcon isn't HUGE but it does have alot of interior space. the area seen in the movies is NOT the main CARGO HOLD. It may be refered to as the main hold but their is a larger hold in front of the engine area. it has a large caro lift near the center and i would imagine the door is there for something besides show.

There is insufficient room in front of the engine for a large cargo hold. I'm well aware of the various official deck-plans for the Falcon, and a very simple test of how good they are is to look at how much room they've made available for engine in the aft-quarter. Any plan that doesn't have large engines just doesn't agree with canon evidence from the film and should be discarded; The blockade runner shows what sort of percentage of volume that should be used for engine in a fast starship, and as the Falcon is supposed to be FASTER it must have a similar fraction allocated to engine.

[greenmm]

Good points the Falcon isn't HUGE but it does have alot of interior space. the area seen in the movies is NOT the main CARGO HOLD. It may be refered to as the main hold but their is a larger hold in front of the engine area. it has a large caro lift near the center and i would imagine the door is there for something besides show.

There is insufficient room in front of the engine for a large cargo hold. I'm well aware of the various official deck-plans for the Falcon, and a very simple test of how good they are is to look at how much room they've made available for engine in the aft-quarter. Any plan that doesn't have large engines just doesn't agree with canon evidence from the film and should be discarded; The blockade runner shows what sort of percentage of volume that should be used for engine in a fast starship, and as the Falcon is supposed to be FASTER it must have a similar fraction allocated to engine.

Exactly.

There's a website out there that gives tips on creating deck plans for starships, in particular deck plans for fan-created ships for SW, which talks about the problem that starships need large engines. I'm trying to find the link, but I may have forgotten to bookmark the spot (in which case, I need to smack my head against some cement walls for a few hours...) 10% of the ship would make a very slow Falcon, one easily caught and intercepted by even the sluggish B-Wings and Y-Wings, let alone the nimble A- and X-Wings or even the TIE fighters, and wouldn't have the maneuverability demonstrated. In fact, the site recommended more along the lines of 30-40% of the volume for the engines.

And... if the YT-1300 had been designed from the beginning to be that fast and agile, then not only would Han and Lando never had to upgrade it, but no one would find the MF's appearance deceptive in comparison to its actual speed and maneuverability.

[Akm72]

Exactly.

There's a website out there that gives tips on creating deck plans for starships, in particular deck plans for fan-created ships for SW, which talks about the problem that starships need large engines. I'm trying to find the link, but I may have forgotten to bookmark the spot (in which case, I need to smack my head against some cement walls for a few hours...) 10% of the ship would make a very slow Falcon, one easily caught and intercepted by even the sluggish B-Wings and Y-Wings, let alone the nimble A- and X-Wings or even the TIE fighters, and wouldn't have the maneuverability demonstrated. In fact, the site recommended more along the lines of 30-40% of the volume for the engines.

This website?
http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/index.html

And... if the YT-1300 had been designed from the beginning to be that fast and agile, then not only would Han and Lando never had to upgrade it, but no one would find the MF's appearance deceptive in comparison to its actual speed and maneuverability.

Yet for the Falcon to be a good starting point for a fast smuggling ship it'd be damn useful if it was reasonably powerful to begin with, and stressed to tolerate the additional load of a large cargo pod.

[Howedar]

Newbie my ass. Now you're cleverly blending your first claim of "canon" with your second claim of "official". Newbieness isn't a matter of tenure, it's a way of thinking, so stop doing it.

Did I say you DIDN'T have an official *higher* limit? I said you didn't have a CANON higher limit. Learn to fucking read.

Joined: 10 Sep 2002

At any rate, official is as good as canon unless directly contradicted. Now unless you can show me right the fuck out of the movie where any fighter-range weapons demonstrated yields that show that the ICS is not an accurate protrayal of OT weaponry of this size, then you can shut the hell up.

[greenmm]

Yes!!!!

That's the one.

But again... if the Falcon is already fast, then Solo loses the shock value, because he won't have as much of a speed advantage. So, that points to the original YT-1300 being a slower ship.

[Akm72]

But again... if the Falcon is already fast, then Solo loses the shock value, because he won't have as much of a speed advantage. So, that points to the original YT-1300 being a slower ship.

How about this for some speculation; The original Falcon might've had a lot of power to move heavily-loaded cargo pods, but didn't have the acceleration compensators and/or hull stength to deal with actual high Gs.

Shame my speculation only has the canon weight of a wet leaf in a hurricane

[Cal Wright]

I'm sure the stock YT1300 freighter is a turd in comparison to most other ships, maybe not other freighters, but to starfighters and most definitely the Falcon. I just posted a passage out of the ESB novelisation that states the Falcon has outrun TIE Fighters.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm sure the stock YT1300 freighter is a turd in comparison to most other ships, maybe not other freighters, but to starfighters and most definitely the Falcon. I just posted a passage out of the ESB novelisation that states the Falcon has outrun TIE Fighters.

In X-Wing: Alliance, once the novelty wears off it soon becomes apparent that the Falcon would be better if it was the Otana.

[Cal Wright]

I'm sure the stock YT1300 freighter is a turd in comparison to most other ships, maybe not other freighters, but to starfighters and most definitely the Falcon. I just posted a passage out of the ESB novelisation that states the Falcon has outrun TIE Fighters.

In X-Wing: Alliance, once the novelty wears off it soon becomes apparent that the Falcon would be better if it was the Otana.

That game bent the Falcon over and gave it to it up the ASS! X-Wing Alliance was an awesome game until you took control of the Falcon. Then it became slow and sluggish. It had a top speed of 104mglt, just edging out an X-Wing. That's crap though. If you want to see what the Falcon can really do, play the first Rogue Squadron. Not Rogue Leader, it handles like a fucking washtub. The first one though, I was literally dancing around the train posts in the Chandrilla level while blasting bombers and squints. Yee Haw!

[Slartibartfast]

Newbie my ass. Now you're cleverly blending your first claim of "canon" with your second claim of "official". Newbieness isn't a matter of tenure, it's a way of thinking, so stop doing it.

Did I say you DIDN'T have an official *higher* limit? I said you didn't have a CANON higher limit. Learn to fucking read.

Joined: 10 Sep 2002

Newbieness isn't a matter of TENURE. Again, learn to fucking READ what I write.

At any rate, official is as good as canon unless directly contradicted. Now unless you can show me right the fuck out of the movie where any fighter-range weapons demonstrated yields that show that the ICS is not an accurate protrayal of OT weaponry of this size, then you can shut the hell up.

Again, learn to fucking READ what I write.