Most Faithful Literary Addition

[Stormbringer]

Dressing up an attempt to contradict the numbers given by the author, which in themselves were thought to be dangerous to Leia and none of them found unrealistic. Not to mention their use in a few strikes and in a few light cruisers does not prevelence make.

Wedge and most of the fleet had never encountered them until a specific assault by Thrawn which he heard of through Commander Varth.

Of course there is a degree of rationalizing to it because the number Mara gives doesn't fit very well with canon or even the rest of the trilogy. Thrawn had stormtrooper-clones in back water sleeper cells, unimportant garrisons, and was taking them time to use them for experiments.

And the clone-pilots only made their debut at that battle. That does not mean they were confined to that battle alone. And indeed it's suggested they were becoming more common on the frontlines.

Actually the whole point at the beginning of the trilogy is that the Empire was inferior and simply lacked the ships to carry out Thrawn's campiagn. The two-hundred Dreadnoughts are obviously intended to do just that.

Actually, it was that the Empire (and the Republic) were desperately short of ships and any advantage was likely to tip the balance of power. Given as we see in the HoT duology a lot of ships were needed simply for garrison duty and routine patrols.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Mara gives doesn't fit very well with canon

The whole fucking point.

Thrawn had stormtrooper-clones in back water sleeper cells

Sorry, but a cell of Fel clones somewhere is not indicative of magically inventing an order of magnitude higher figure, try again.

them for experiments.

A single prototype warlord who was the experiment in himself also is not indicative of a massively larger number of clone cylinders than Mara gave.

That does not mean they were confined to that battle alone.

Shifting the Burden of Proof.

And indeed it's suggested they were becoming more common on the frontlines.

Proof? By your own admission the Trilogy focuses nearly entirely on Thrawn's superiority fleet and occasionally some other taskforces. Why does that insist on any different number of clone cylinders.

Actually, it was that the Empire (and the Republic) were desperately short of ships and any advantage was likely to tip the balance of power.

Which is why Thrawn was resorting to hiring criminals to steal shit like Star Galleons and robbing the New Republic of largely species-specific warships like Mon Calamari ships, while the New Republic's only deficiency was in shipping.

Burden of proof is on you to show that the ship-starvation was mutual. Especially since DESB says otherwise and fingers the problem on Palpatine's recalls.

Given as we see in the HoT duology a lot of ships were needed simply for garrison duty and routine patrols.

Wow, use a book ten years chronologically in the future to prove a point. And that's stupid, because member worlds have their own defenses, even under the Empire--neither the NRDF nor the Imperial Navy have to supply those defense and patrol forces. Hell, if you paid attention to the HoT you're citing, the member worlds even almost started civil war with the ships I'm talking about. Christ you're dense.

[Stormbringer]

The whole fucking point.

Which means that Mara is likely wrong, not that Zahn screwed up.

Sorry, but a cell of Fel clones somewhere is not indicative of magically inventing an order of magnitude higher figure, try again.

Oh yes, he's going to stash away a major percentage of his super pilots and soldiers when he's in the middle of a fairly desperate war.

A single prototype warlord who was the experiment in himself also is not indicative of a massively larger number of clone cylinders than Mara gave.

Given that it was not a single clone but rather part of a program. That alone suggests he's got a fair amount of excess capacity.

Shifting the Burden of Proof.

The Last Command hints that, and Isard's Revenge confirms, that clone pilots at Billigirini (sp?) and in significant numbers. Again proof that clones aren't so rare as you'd have us believe.

Proof? By your own admission the Trilogy focuses nearly entirely on Thrawn's superiority fleet and occasionally some other taskforces. Why does that insist on any different number of clone cylinders.

Gee, the fact that Thrawn was sending clones to the front on a regular basis?

Which is why Thrawn was resorting to hiring criminals to steal shit like Star Galleons and robbing the New Republic of largely species-specific warships like Mon Calamari ships, while the New Republic's only deficiency was in shipping.

Wow, an admiral that's short of ships trying to acquire some, shocking.

As for the New Republic ships, everyone was unhappy about pressing them into cargo service but it was done because of political needs. In fact several character were down right pissed off at the need to remove the warship from the fighting.

The fact that they were unable to build even a modest transport capacity suggests that the Republic can't possibly enjoy much of an advantage over Thrawn and the other warlords. If they had such an overwhelming advantage as you claim then surely they could have spared the space to build frieghters.

Wow, use a book ten years chronologically in the future to prove a point. And that's stupid, because member worlds have their own defenses, even under the Empire--neither the NRDF nor the Imperial Navy have to supply those defense and patrol forces. Hell, if you paid attention to the HoT you're citing, the member worlds even almost started civil war with the ships I'm talking about. Christ you're dense.

If Han or Palleon were talking about current politics that would matter. As it stands, the references were very

He was remarking that he never appreciated how many ships the Empire had to deploy simply to garrison systems and prevent internal civil wars. Given that Paelleon remarks that it's nice for the Remanent that they no longer have to keep planets in line by force in the same books I think they're germane references.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The whole fucking point.

Which means that Mara is likely wrong, not that Zahn screwed up.

Oh yes, the only figure he gives us is purposely wrong and Stormbringer's inventions are right and exactly the conclusion Zahn wanted us to reach! My mistake.

Oh yes, he's going to stash away a major percentage of his super pilots and soldiers when he's in the middle of a fairly desperate war.

What major percentage? Now you're just imagining delusional bullshit.

Given that it was not a single clone but rather part of a program. That alone suggests he's got a fair amount of excess capacity.

1.) Wrong. Pelleaon stated emphatically that the program was a failure because Tierce was just a tactically brilliant stormtrooper. There's nothing preventing Tierce from being the beginning and end of a program, and its up to you to justify any other subjects, and that these token projects are in anyway indicative of Mara being wrong and taking up massive numbers the necessitate disregarding her. You need a compelling reason to throwaway the only data with have on the subject, and you haven't brought anything but absurd boogeymen and outright delusions to the table to justify that. Sorry, but that doesn't work.

2.) Capacity implies that the clones were supposed to form a significant percentage of the army and such. I say that they're shock troops and to beef up his assaults, which Mara's cylinder count works for.

[The Last Command hints that, and Isard's Revenge confirms, that clone pilots at Billigirini (sp?) and in significant numbers. Again proof that clones aren't so rare as you'd have us believe.

Oh my God! Clone TIE pilots! How does this imply millions more cylinders than we're told of? Leia was aware of the clone assaults and such and felt Mara's count was appropriate. In fact, since she was able to plot a possible incubation time just knowing the cylinder count, its possible they already had a projected quantity of clones and the cylinder count made it.

Gee, the fact that Thrawn was sending clones to the front on a regular basis?

The fact that Thrawn's little taskforce does not an Imperial Army make. You'll need more compelling evidence that there Mara's count must be wrong, rather than handwaving and merely saying it must be so.

Wow, an admiral that's short of ships trying to acquire some, shocking.

You must be fucking stupid. You're restating the conclusion. That's the whole point, Thrawn was desperate for ships and had to steal some that his crews wouldn't even be able to operate efficiently.

As for the New Republic ships, everyone was unhappy about pressing them into cargo service but it was done because of political needs. In fact several character were down right pissed off at the need to remove the warship from the fighting.

Nice handwaving. The NRDF wasn't as desperate as the Empire, ever, and had the capacity to post some Mon Calamari cruisers on shipping duty.

The fact that they were unable to build even a modest transport capacity suggests that the Republic can't possibly enjoy much of an advantage over Thrawn and the other warlords. If they had such an overwhelming advantage as you claim then surely they could have spared the space to build frieghters.

Or they snatched up territory faster than infrastructure grew to supplant it. By this logic the fact that Palpatine when resurrected was content to use smugglers to haul freight to Byss means the New Republic must've had the edge. And this "overwhelming advantage" is a fucking strawman. You said they were both desperate for warships and that the Dark Force would turn the seesaw either way. That's bullshit because the desperate warship shortage was on the Empire's side, and that's a fact. Stop obfuscating the point.

He was remarking that he never appreciated how many ships the Empire had to deploy simply to garrison systems and prevent internal civil wars. Given that Paelleon remarks that it's nice for the Remanent that they no longer have to keep planets in line by force in the same books I think they're germane references.

Ok moron, your original point was this:

Actually, it was that the Empire (and the Republic) were desperately short of ships and any advantage was likely to tip the balance of power. Given as we see in the HoT duology a lot of ships were needed simply for garrison duty and routine patrols.

You just stated the Republic doesn't have to hold its own members hostage by force (ie. they don't need the permanent-occupation force Sector Groups). So how does that in any fucking way have anything to do with the Republic's need for ships, if they didn't have that need? If anything, that proves my point, because Thrawn's Empire would've needed even more ships just to constantly occupy their own territories whereas the Republic would not.

[Illuminatus Primus]

To sum up: Stormbringer will overgeneralize, obfuscate the point, exaggerate, and shift the burden of proof in order to toss out pieces of evidence (particularly in this case, hard figures) in place of shit he just makes up and handwaves to excuse.

There is no compelling reason to simply throw-out the evidence.

[Stormbringer]

Oh yes, the only figure he gives us is purposely wrong and Stormbringer's inventions are right and exactly the conclusion Zahn wanted us to reach! My mistake.

Or he deliberately had Mara's estimate be far lower than the actualy for dramatic purposes.

1.) Wrong. Pelleaon stated emphatically that the program was a failure because Tierce was just a tactically brilliant stormtrooper. There's nothing preventing Tierce from being the beginning and end of a program, and its up to you to justify any other subjects, and that these token projects are in anyway indicative of Mara being wrong and taking up massive numbers the necessitate disregarding her. You need a compelling reason to throwaway the only data with have on the subject, and you haven't brought anything but absurd boogeymen and outright delusions to the table to justify that. Sorry, but that doesn't work.

You don't generally call one man a program.

2.) Capacity implies that the clones were supposed to form a significant percentage of the army and such. I say that they're shock troops and to beef up his assaults, which Mara's cylinder count works for.

It does. Yet he clearly was not confining the clones to simply serving as assualt troops since he was using them as navy crewers, TIE pilots, armor officers in addition to using them for Stormtroopers. You theory that they were to form some select elites units with in the army doesn't add up.

Oh my God! Clone TIE pilots! How does this imply millions more cylinders than we're told of? Leia was aware of the clone assaults and such and felt Mara's count was appropriate. In fact, since she was able to plot a possible incubation time just knowing the cylinder count, its possible they already had a projected quantity of clones and the cylinder count made it.

And when did I say that it implied millions of cylinders? I'm saying Mara's estimatation of a minimum of twenty thousands should be treated as the bare minimum and that it's more likely had a significantly larger number. Which when combined with the faster rate of cloning suggests the numbers of clones were far higher than the Repbulicans estimated.

The fact that Thrawn's little taskforce does not an Imperial Army make. You'll need more compelling evidence that there Mara's count must be wrong, rather than handwaving and merely saying it must be so.

And you are simply dimissing the fact that Thrawn was sending troops to the front to abitrarily narrow the possible number of clones.

You must be fucking stupid. You're restating the conclusion. That's the whole point, Thrawn was desperate for ships and had to steal some that his crews wouldn't even be able to operate efficiently.

Well fucking hell, that's what I said. Thrawn was desperate ships. What the fuck is the point of dragging this in circles for?

Nice handwaving. The NRDF wasn't as desperate as the Empire, ever, and had the capacity to post some Mon Calamari cruisers on shipping duty.

Yes, they did. For the simple reason that they didn't have the necessary shipping even for vital supply runs. That suggests that they've been totally ignoring merchant construction in favor of warships which in turn suggests they have a desperate need of warships.

You just stated the Republic doesn't have to hold its own members hostage by force (ie. they don't need the permanent-occupation force Sector Groups). So how does that in any fucking way have anything to do with the Republic's need for ships, if they didn't have that need? If anything, that proves my point, because Thrawn's Empire would've needed even more ships just to constantly occupy their own territories whereas the Republic would not.

No, actually the New Republic had to spend a great deal of time simply preventing their members from killing each others as well as fending of the warlords.

There is no compelling reason to simply throw-out the evidence.

There is no reason to throw out evidence. But neither is there a reason to take Mara's dubious guesstimate as a concrete and utterly reliable figure either. Even Mara herself didn't claim it was more than an estimate.