How powerful is Emperor Palpatine ?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-11-16 09:05am

Does anyone to know the full list of Emperor's powers ? In the EU books he seems like a demi-god. And the Rebellion game mentions that the full extent of Palpatines dark side powers is unknown.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-11-16 11:47am

The Dark Empire Sourcebook states (p. 39) that "Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure". It goes on to list the following powers: Absorb/dissipate energy, accelerate healing, control pain, detoxify poison, enhance attribute, hibernation trance, rage, reduce injury, remain conscious, resist stun, short-term memory enhancement, combat sense, danger sense, instinctive astrogation, life detection, life sense, magnify senses, receptive telepathy, sense Force, sense path, injure/kill, telekinesis, farseeing (i.e., prescience and clairvoyance), lightsaber combat, projective telepathy, accelerate another's healing, control another's pain, feed on dark side, Force lightning, inflict pain, return another to consciousness, transfer Force, affect mind, control minds, create Force storms, Dopplegänger, drain life essence, enhanced coordination, telekinetic kill, transfer life, and dim another's senses.

Three notable powers subsequently introduced which he almost surely possessed include the forbidden Jedi arts of malacia and mortichro (ref. the Databank) and the Sith discipline mechu-duru (ref. "The Emperor's Pawns"); one notable exception is the creation of Sith zombies, which he has been specifically stated not to have known (as detailed in the Wizards of the Coast web site's entry on Korriban). Generally speaking, however, it is a reasonable assumption that the Galactic Emperor either possesses a given ability, or could easily learn it.

The most intriguing demonstrations of his power are the circumstances surrounding the burial of HIMS Lusankya on Imperial Centre (some speculate that he "clouded men's minds" à la Shadow) and the circumstances surrounding the arrival of General Skywalker on Byss (which involved the Emperor opening a wormhole in hyperspace and projecting a Force storm across possibly thousands of light years, and somehow physically depositing General Skywalker in the hold of a Lictor-class dungeon ship with the Force storm, suggesting that he is in fact capable of teleportation).

PUBLIUS

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-11-16 08:57pm

I've always been skeptical about the Lusankya burying as an example of Palpatine's mental powers. It would require the mind controlling of billions of beings at once, and if Palpatine could do that, why did he even need the Death Star II to be fully operational? He could have just mentally commanded the Rebels to self-destruct! The entire idea rests upon the speculation of Corran Horn, who considered the alternative explanation that Palpatine had all witnesses killed to be more likely anyway.

There are other possibilities, too. Palpatine could have ordered the entire neighborhood destroyed and rebuilt, and lowered a cloaked Lusankya into the city structure before the rebuilding got under way. The secret could have been kept to very few with the use of droid labor for the rebuilding process.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-17 12:52am

Eframepilot wrote:There are other possibilities, too. Palpatine could have ordered the entire neighborhood destroyed and rebuilt, and lowered a cloaked Lusankya into the city structure before the rebuilding got under way. The secret could have been kept to very few with the use of droid labor for the rebuilding process.

Impossible. The Lusankya was buried directly under Imperial City, the very heart of the Empire and indeed the galaxy. It would be inconceivable that the Emperor would have the place evacuated and destroyed, then rebuilt with the Lusankya under it. He would never have maintained the security required (you be able to see the whole thing from space!). Perhaps if it had been in a remote spot like Danko (the factory place Dooku goes to to meet Sidious at the end of AOTC), but not Imperial City.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-17 12:55am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Impossible. The Lusankya was buried directly under Imperial City, the very heart of the Empire and indeed the galaxy. It would be inconceivable that the Emperor would have the place evacuated and destroyed, then rebuilt with the Lusankya under it. He would never have maintained the security required (you be able to see the whole thing from space!). Perhaps if it had been in a remote spot like Danko (the factory place Dooku goes to to meet Sidious at the end of AOTC), but not Imperial City.

On the contrary, he wouldn't necessarily have to hide it. Massive civil works projects aren't unknown even on Coruscant. It's possible he could have hidden it under that guise.

Though the force blinding is much more likely.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-17 12:56am

Gnome, you're wrong. The trial of Tycho takes place in the Imperial City, with no ill effects and likewise with the Imperial Palace. It took place near the mountains somewhere. Definitely not within the Imperial City.

This makes it even more likely that Wedge was just getting excited. Imagine an industrial sector razed, the cloaked Lusankya dropped in, and then a new residential zone declared and constructed after some rock/infrastructure is built of the Lusankya.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-11-17 12:59am

Forgive my ignorance.. but could it have been built entirely underground then?

But if Palpatine was that powerful.. does that mean Yoda and Ben were equally as powerful? Doesn't Luke mention somewhere that Yoda and Ben had to be just as powerful to calm the waves around them in the Force to hide from Palpatine? Luke also mentions that maybe the Dark Cave canceled out Yoda's positive influence on the Force radar, but that doesn't explain Ben, especially when he's constantly calling on the force.

And does that then mean Vader was actually more powerful than the Emperor if he could sense Ben? Or was it because Vader was more finely attuned to Ben's presence?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-11-17 01:01am

I assume distance has something to do with it. After all, Vader didn't detect Kenobi when he was orbitting Tatooine.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-11-17 01:02am

Howedar wrote:I assume distance has something to do with it. After all, Vader didn't detect Kenobi when he was orbitting Tatooine.

But, I forget where, but Luke says something how Ben could actually be on Vader's personal destroyer and not be seen, Ben probably purposely revealed himself to Vader on the Death Star.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-17 01:03am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Gnome, you're wrong. The trial of Tycho takes place in the Imperial City, with no ill effects and likewise with the Imperial Palace. It took place near the mountains somewhere. Definitely not within the Imperial City.

Well unless the book says something the Chronolgy doesn't, the Lusankya made her escape very close to the Imperial Palace. In fact, Luke can clearly see the Manarai Mountains from the Imperial Palace (at the center of Imperial City) in HttE.

Relevent quote:

"As the members of Rogue Squardron flew a mission above Imperial City, a panicked call suddenly came from the Manarai Mountains district. [...] Despite the efforts of Rogue Squadron to stop it, the Lusankya tore a gaping hole out of Imperial City's heart, killing millions." - P.75, Essential Chronology.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-17 01:07am

Trytostaydead wrote:And does that then mean Vader was actually more powerful than the Emperor if he could sense Ben? Or was it because Vader was more finely attuned to Ben's presence?

Actually, what it means is that Yoda and Ben Kenobi are good at hiding themselves. Stealth is not necessarily an indication of their respective strengths, it's a matter of their skill at stealth and detection.

As for Obi-wan being detected, it's pretty obvious that he let himself be seen so as to prevent Vader from blocking the rest of the group's escape.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-11-17 02:13am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:"As the members of Rogue Squardron flew a mission above Imperial City, a panicked call suddenly came from the Manarai Mountains district. [...] Despite the efforts of Rogue Squadron to stop it, the Lusankya tore a gaping hole out of Imperial City's heart, killing millions." - P.75, Essential Chronology.

That could be caused by Lusankya flying low over the city. The backblast from its main engines can't possibly be good for a planet.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-17 02:16am

Crayz9000 wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:"As the members of Rogue Squardron flew a mission above Imperial City, a panicked call suddenly came from the Manarai Mountains district. [...] Despite the efforts of Rogue Squadron to stop it, the Lusankya tore a gaping hole out of Imperial City's heart, killing millions." - P.75, Essential Chronology.
That could be caused by Lusankya flying low over the city. The backblast from its main engines can't possibly be good for a planet.

Actually, it was using a repuslor lift system for most of the ascent as I recall.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-11-17 05:24am

Trytostaydead wrote:Forgive my ignorance.. but could it have been built entirely underground then?

No, as 2 Shipyards claimed to have built Executor, so it was built at one of them.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-17 08:12am

Trytostaydead wrote:does that mean Yoda and Ben were equally as powerful?{/qupte]

Presumably. You don't get to be Jedi Master by being a slouch or a pushover. On the other hand, you don't get to be a Sith Lord and Ruler of the Galaxy by selling cookies.

Doesn't Luke mention somewhere that Yoda and Ben had to be just as powerful to calm the waves around them in the Force to hide from Palpatine?

Except if they were just as powerful why would they bother hiding, particularly since each of them is vulnerable to a ISD fleet performing a BDZ? What the fuck was Yoda doing on Dagobah if he could hide from the Emperor even on Coruscant?

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-11-17 02:23pm

Trytostaydead wrote:Doesn't Luke mention somewhere that Yoda and Ben had to be just as powerful to calm the waves around them in the Force to hide from Palpatine?

General Skywalker's knowledge of the relative strengths of the Galactic Emperor, Master Yoda, and General Kenobi is largely speculative. Consider that Senator (and then Supreme Chancellor) Palpatine has been shown several times to have been within a few metres of the numerous Jedi, including the entire Jedi High Council, without ever betraying the slightest hint of his true nature.

If General Skywalker's comment is to be taken as accurate, then by logical extension, it makes the Galactic Emperor more powerful yet, as he successfully hid himself from the entire Jedi Order -- Master Yoda and General Kenobi included -- at its zenith while occupying the same planet for well over a decade, a feat far in excess of Master Yoda's and General Kenobi's self-concealment on distant worlds hundreds of thousands of light years away from the Galactic Emperor's throne world.

PUBLIUS

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-17 04:09pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:"As the members of Rogue Squardron flew a mission above Imperial City, a panicked call suddenly came from the Manarai Mountains district. [...] Despite the efforts of Rogue Squadron to stop it, the Lusankya tore a gaping hole out of Imperial City's heart, killing millions." - P.75, Essential Chronology.

Rogue Squadron novels call all of Coruscant's cityscape except for Invisec Imperial City. Furthermore, since Manarai is admittedly low in population (the top is bare rock) and since it is not located near the commercial/residential core, the burden of proof is on you that there aren't any industrial sectors in Imperial City.

Furthermore, Padme's Apartment was likely in Galactic (Imperial) City and it a dozen kilometers off there was the industrial sector.

Furthermore, the Lusankya is 17.6 kilometers in length and possesses engines with relativistic wash capable of accelerating it at 1000s of Gees. The Lusankya need not be in the heart nor even in most part located under Imperial City to tear a hole in it. Also, the mere millions of deaths suggests that the sector where it was buried could've been less populated.

Conceded that it was near Imperial City however.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-17 06:49pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Rogue Squadron novels call all of Coruscant's cityscape except for Invisec Imperial City.

Is this perhaps because most of Rogue Squadrons missions take place above Imperial City, which does indeed have a defined border (as seen in the Essential guide to Planets and Moons)?

Furthermore, since Manarai is admittedly low in population (the top is bare rock) and since it is not located near the commercial/residential core, the burden of proof is on you that there aren't any industrial sectors in Imperial City.

Besides there not being any label of such in the EGTP&M, it's more important that even in an area that is industrialized, to remove the entire cityscape and rebuild over a starship with a new one without anyone witnessing seems unfathomable. Millions of people live near where the Lusankya was buried, after all. And it is more likey even millions more move in, out, and above a sector so close to the Imperial Palace every day.

Furthermore, Padme's Apartment was likely in Galactic (Imperial) City and it a dozen kilometers off there was the industrial sector.

Prove this assumption. Padme would not need her apartment to be near the Senate building in order to get there quickly.

Furthermore, the Lusankya is 17.6 kilometers in length and possesses engines with relativistic wash capable of accelerating it at 1000s of Gees.

I was under the assumption it relyed heavily on its repulsor lifts to escape.

The Lusankya need not be in the heart nor even in most part located under Imperial City to tear a hole in it. Also, the mere millions of deaths suggests that the sector where it was buried could've been less populated.

As it is though, the EC states that the Lusankya's exit was near the center of Imperial City, the EGTP&M says that the Imperial Palace is, "Just north of the Manarai Mountains" and indeed Luke can see them from the Imperial Palace in HttE.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-17 07:45pm

Eframepilot wrote:I've always been skeptical about the Lusankya burying as an example of Palpatine's mental powers. It would require the mind controlling of billions of beings at once, and if Palpatine could do that, why did he even need the Death Star II to be fully operational? He could have just mentally commanded the Rebels to self-destruct! The entire idea rests upon the speculation of Corran Horn, who considered the alternative explanation that Palpatine had all witnesses killed to be more likely anyway.

There are other possibilities, too. Palpatine could have ordered the entire neighborhood destroyed and rebuilt, and lowered a cloaked Lusankya into the city structure before the rebuilding got under way. The secret could have been kept to very few with the use of droid labor for the rebuilding process.

Chances are it was a combination of things, and since most of the people in the area would be very loyal to the Emperor they'd also likely be very easy for him to influence, as opposed to the Rebels who where dead set against him.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-11-18 12:24pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
Trytostaydead wrote:Forgive my ignorance.. but could it have been built entirely underground then?
No, as 2 Shipyards claimed to have built Executor, so it was built at one of them.

The Executor was built at Fondor, and the Lusankya was constructed by KDY at Kuat

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-11-18 05:43pm

Sea Skimmer wrote: Chances are it was a combination of things, and since most of the people in the area would be very loyal to the Emperor they'd also likely be very easy for him to influence, as opposed to the Rebels who where dead set against him.

Perhaps. My idea was that the Emperor set up some sort of fake construction project as a cover and lowered the cloaked ship in; the "fake" buildings would of course be under Imperial control anyway, since Intelligence wouldn't want civilians hitting the lowest floor buttons on their elevators and finding themselves in a Star Destroyer. The Emperor's influence could have acted as a "look the other way" effect, and also explain why no one noticed that the Executor was built twice. I don't think that billions of people watched the ship being lowered and had their memories wiped by a wave of the Emperor's hand, though. "There is no giant spaceship of mass destruction descending from the sky..."

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-18 10:41pm

Does anybody else think the topdeck of the Executor looks a whole lot like a cityscape? Perhaps constructing buildings on top of it was unnecessary? Sure, parts of it would be covered, but it seems like some of the ship would "blend in" with the rest of the area.