Empire Evil or Rebels good at propaganda?

[Connor MacLeod]

We should point out that aside from the obvious fact that droids are manufactured (more akin to the breeding of animals than anything else)

We can also point out that the purchase/exchange of droids is so commonplace that noone thinks poorly of it (Luke did not object to his Uncle's purchasing of droids from the Jawas!) What about restraining bolts or threats of shutdown, or Luke giving orders to Threepio or other droids? What about the fact Luke went out and hunted down Artoo after he left - clearly suggestngi he did not want to stay?? Am I to believe these actions make the Empire evil, but not Skywalker? Get real.

In fact, Luke did not think twice about giving Threepio and Artoo (without Threepio's knowledge, at least) to Jabba in Return of the Jedi!!

I would also like to ask whether or not there is proof the Rebels freed their own droids, or pay them for their work in the alliance (I bet not )

[zombie84]

I dont think anyone in the galaxy considers droids to be sentient--"If droids could think, there'd be none of us here". They're considered smart tools and not much more.

[Lord of the Farce]

Likewise, its claims about memory wipes are highly insubstantial; a terrorist organisation whose stated purpose is to destroy the legitimate government of the galaxy by any means necessary (including assassination and raising revenue by gunrunning) is hardly a credible source for commentary on legality.

Oh, I know. I was just pointing out the hypocracy of the RA's claims concerning droids.

[Rogue 9]

Well, the Empire as it existed in the movies, and for perhaps fifteen to twenty years after Endor, was led by individuals who were nearly undeniably evil. Zinje, Ysanne Isard, Thrawn, the clone Emperor (duh), Daala (a debatable case, but I'd say so), the various High Admirals, Supreme Generals and what have you, and so on and so forth. Strongmen (Zinje), sadists (Isard, the Emperor), cold plotters (Thrawn), and/or destructive maniacs (Daala, the warlords) all.

I'd say that the turnaround point for the Imperial Remnant lies with Gilad Pellaeon. Quite frankly he's one of my favorite characters in the EU, and I think its a pity that more pages weren't devoted to his character and story. It sounds like an interesting one. He always struck me as the dutiful officer, a lower rank man who wound up in charge through conspicuous bravery more than anything else. But before him? Oppression and rule through terror ( remember the Tarkin Doctrine?) were the order of the day. Evil.

[FTeik]

"Rule by fear of force, instead by force itself."

That was the Tarkin-Doctrin.

What do you guys think authority in real life is based on?

You don´t need police-officers and soldiers and so on for those parts of the population, who are of good will, but for those, who aren´t.

Was the emperor evil? Certainly yes.

Was the empire evil? No. People are good or evil (often both) depending on their actions and the circumstances of their actions and i´m certain most people, who supported and served the empire did so for its supposed benefits and values, not to become slaves to an uper-class of darksiders.

[Peregrin Toker]

I'd say that the turnaround point for the Imperial Remnant lies with Gilad Pellaeon. Quite frankly he's one of my favorite characters in the EU, and I think its a pity that more pages weren't devoted to his character and story. It sounds like an interesting one. He always struck me as the dutiful officer, a lower rank man who wound up in charge through conspicuous bravery more than anything else.

This raises the question: Wasn't he to some extent guilty himself for associating with the evil Empire rather than the Rebellion, even though he at heart was a honourable man?

[consequences]

Since people are bred like animals, I fail to see the distinction between an organic sapient species, and an artificially created one. Also, does this mean that clones, being manufactured, have no rights?

The mere fact that at least one droid has been stated to be manumitted implies that the droids could have rights, but that except in very special cases, the galaxy's population could care less about them. There is only one droid that I know of in the EU that has been freed(Squeaky, from Wraith Squadron) and the circumstances of that imply that it was a propaganda move on the rebel's parts to encourage other droids to hijack freighters and present them to the rebellion.

Publius, I'd like some proof that droids are non-sapient.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

... such as the R2 series and C3PO series, not to mention those specials like IG-88 and Guri seem to have sentience, and the humans try to deny it (I've seen Lobot try to deny it in Tyrant's Test by setting a set of sentience criteria that basically meant no artificial creation could do it, no matter how advanced.)

But certainly not ALL droids are sentient, for example a MSE-6 mouse droid - which if C3POs are humans, a MSE-6 is really a rat in comparison. Which kind of leads to a problem as to how sophisticated the logic has to be in a artificial creation before it is considered sentient.

[Lord Pounder]

Droids, if not given regular memory wipes do develop personalities. The NJO pointed this out when the gave a droids perspective of a memory wipe, or destruction at the hands of the Vong.

IIRC i can only remember of 3 non-slaved droids in the entire SW. IG-88, Squeaky from the Wraith books and the droid from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

[Publius]

Since people are bred like animals, I fail to see the distinction between an organic sapient species, and an artificially created one. Also, does this mean that clones, being manufactured, have no rights?

"People are bred like animals"? If by that you mean that human beings reproduce sexually, then you are quite correct. If by that you mean that human beings are domesticated animals like horses and oxen, then you really must provide some justification for such a brazen claim. Human beings -- and, by extention, other sapient beings -- are ends unto themselves, whereas robots are designed and created to perform specific functions, and have no purpose whatever beyond those functions. They are no more than complicated tools.

Clones are no more comparable to 'droids than Negro slaves are. Clones are demonstrably and empirically members of the same species as non-clones, and are therefore entitled to the same fundamental rights. 'droids are machines and no more; clones are living, sapient individuals. The two categories are dissimilar.

The mere fact that at least one droid has been stated to be manumitted implies that the droids could have rights, but that except in very special cases, the galaxy's population could care less about them. There is only one droid that I know of in the EU that has been freed(Squeaky, from Wraith Squadron) and the circumstances of that imply that it was a propaganda move on the rebel's parts to encourage other droids to hijack freighters and present them to the rebellion.

Squeaky's manumission is hardly proof that 'droids are sapient individuals, sir. It is rather proof that one idiosyncratic machine was manumitted under the "laws" of a terrorist organisation which charged that the Empire was guilty of "'droid abuse" and alleged that regular memory wipes are criminal acts (strangely, this hardly prevented CDR Antilles from erasing his astromech's memory when it annoyed him); you might compare this to a fanatical animal rights group "manumitting" and "granting citizenship" to a cow. Would you accept the suggestion that Incitatus proves that horses could have rights and become Roman senators?

Publius, I'd like some proof that droids are non-sapient.

It is you who contended that their rights were infringed by enslavement. It is therefore you who is obligated to demonstrate that they have rights in the first place.

PUBLIUS

[FTeik]

You are very convinced of yourself, considering, that your (our) evolution has lead to intelligence by accident.

I´m tempted to call you a protein-chauvinist.

[Crazedwraith]

Squeaky's manumission is hardly proof that 'droids are sapient individuals, sir. It is rather proof that one idiosyncratic machine was manumitted under the "laws" of a terrorist organisation which charged that the Empire was guilty of "'droid abuse" and alleged that regular memory wipes are criminal acts (strangely, this hardly prevented CDR Antilles from erasing his astromech's memory when it annoyed him)PUBLIUS

When is it stated that rebels think memory wipes are criminal?

Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn and NJO Dark tide: Onslaught both state that that regular memory wipes for R-series astromschs is standard procedure. Indeed if you don't the fighter/driod computers become so intertwined its impossible to run diagnostics without going through the astro.

[Ghost Rider]

When is it stated that rebels thinbk memory wipes are criminal?

Most of the evils against droids along with memory wipes is detailed in the Farlander Chronicles.

[Ender]

Did they know that at the time?

Yes.

And would not launching it kill MORE NR citizens?

No. They launched it to test its effectiveness.

[Ender]

We should point out that aside from the obvious fact that droids are manufactured (more akin to the breeding of animals than anything else)

We can also point out that the purchase/exchange of droids is so commonplace that noone thinks poorly of it (Luke did not object to his Uncle's purchasing of droids from the Jawas!) What about restraining bolts or threats of shutdown, or Luke giving orders to Threepio or other droids? What about the fact Luke went out and hunted down Artoo after he left - clearly suggestngi he did not want to stay?? Am I to believe these actions make the Empire evil, but not Skywalker? Get real.

In fact, Luke did not think twice about giving Threepio and Artoo (without Threepio's knowledge, at least) to Jabba in Return of the Jedi!!

I would also like to ask whether or not there is proof the Rebels freed their own droids, or pay them for their work in the alliance (I bet not )

You realize I can turn every single bit of that around and make a direct comparison to slavery in America, right?

Its slavery. Its done by both sides, but it is still slavery.

[Kuja]

Not quite the same situation. Bail Organa was one of the cosigners of the Corellian Treaty, and a key figure in the Rebellion.

Did Mon Mothma represent the population of Chandrila when she signed that treaty? Nope.

Did Garm Bel Iblis throw Corellia's support behind the Rebellion? Nope.

Why then, should we expect Bail Organa to have spoken for the population of Alderaan when he signed?

His daughter was heavily involved in rebel operations, as was at least one noblewoman that we know about.

All COVERTLY.

The likelihood that this could have been kept a secret from the Alderaanian population at large, especially when the Rebel Alliance has been referenced as patterning its style of uniform of that of Alderaan's former military is very slim.

Wow, somebody liked Alderaan's uniforms and copied them. That's a REAL connection there.

[consequences]

They were led by Alderaan's leaders, used there uniforms, and fought with their weapons. Its a fucking duck already.

So Publius, since you believe that clones are inherently superior to droids, being biological, how can you condone their being bred as war slaves for the Old Republic, an action that received no condemnation from any individual in SW that we have seen? What are your criteria for establishing sapience anyway? What's your problem with machines, anyway, did a toaster molest you as a child or something?

So you are saying that slave owners throughout history have not attempted to breed favorable specimen together to improve the general stock.

[Publius]

So Publius, since you believe that clones are inherently superior to droids, being biological, how can you condone their being bred as war slaves for the Old Republic, an action that received no condemnation from any individual in SW that we have seen?

Do not attack strawmen, sir.

Clones are no more comparable to 'droids than Negro slaves are. Clones are demonstrably and empirically members of the same species as non-clones, and are therefore entitled to the same fundamental rights. 'droids are machines and no more; clones are living, sapient individuals.

Nowhere in this statement is there any thing which remotely can be interpreted as condoning the use of clones as "war slaves". In fact, this statement implicitly compares clones to Negro slaves, and at the same time maintains that they "are entitled to the same fundamental rights". This is decidedly contrary to the position you propose. Please document your reasons for attributing this position to this author.

What's your problem with machines, anyway, did a toaster molest you as a child or something?

Please refrain from irrelevant argumenta ad hominem, sir.

So you are saying that slave owners throughout history have not attempted to breed favorable specimen together to improve the general stock.

Do not attack strawmen, sir.

Since people are bred like animals, I fail to see the distinction between an organic sapient species, and an artificially created one.

"People are bred like animals"? If by that you mean that human beings reproduce sexually, then you are quite correct. If by that you mean that human beings are domesticated animals like horses and oxen, then you really must provide some justification for such a brazen claim.

Nowhere in this statement is there any thing which suggests that people have not previously attempted to eugenically "improve" human stock. You stated that "people are bred like animals", not "people were bred like animals". Your choice of words restricts your argument to the present time. Please provide examples from the present time that justify your claim that "people are bred like animals".

PUBLIUS

[Connor MacLeod]

You realize I can turn every single bit of that around and make a direct comparison to slavery in America, right?

Its slavery. Its done by both sides, but it is still slavery.

Right. I keep forgetting we Americans could routinely reprogram and mind-wipe other humans without much trouble, and that the slaves wanted to be enslaved and never tried escaping- oh wait....

[Kuja]

They were led by Alderaan's leaders,

COVERTLY.

used there uniforms,

COVERTLY.

and fought with their weapons.

Weapons that can be found on virtually any planet in the SW galaxy.

Its a fucking duck already.

So far I haven't seen a single scrap of evidence supporting the notion that the majority of Alderaan's population was involved in the Rebellion, only leaps of logic that if several of their leaders were, all of them must have been.

[Ender]

You realize I can turn every single bit of that around and make a direct comparison to slavery in America, right?

Its slavery. Its done by both sides, but it is still slavery.

Right. I keep forgetting we Americans could routinely reprogram and mind-wipe other humans without much trouble, and that the slaves wanted to be enslaved and never tried escaping- oh wait....

Please show me where you made the point of mind wipes in the post that was a response to.

[Johonebesus]

Publius, I have a question. Is your argument as follows: "it is irrelevant whether droids were sentient; they have no rights because they were constructed rather than born and it does not matter if they were sentient at all"? Because I think the folks arguing with you are assuming that sentience grants basic rights, and it is the form of the body that is irrelevant. Therefore, if C3P0 is sentient, he should have fundamental rights, period. Or are you arguing that droids were not truly sentient? I think most would agree that if C3P0 was not really sentient and self aware, it was not a slave but a complicated tool.

[Robert Treder]

At least one of Publius' arguments, if I may venture an explanation, stems from Kantian ethics, I believe. And that argument is that droids are "means," rather than "ends," in that droids exist only to serve as tools to accomplish some end, rather as serving as the end themselves. Humans, by contrast, are ends unto themselves, Kant argues, and it is immoral to use them as a means to an end.
It would not be immoral to use a droid (ie enslave it) since it serves no other purpose than to be used. Sentience doesn't factor in, at least not in this aspect.

Publius will feel free to correct me if I have misinterpreted his position.

[NecronLord]

Star Wars -> Movie Novellization -> Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization / Droids & Androids
Pg. 33 : Thoughts of escape did not enter his mind. Such a concept was utterly alien to a mechanical. The more intelligent a robot was, the more abhorrent and unthinkable the concept. Besides, had he tried to escape, built-in sensors would have detected the critical logic malfunction and melted every circuit in his brain.

Am I the only one who finds the concept of freeing a droid rather strange, given that they have no desire for freedom, except in the case of random glitches and errors?

Given what Obi Wan says in AotC, I would go so far as to say they usually have no free will, even C3PO would not want to be released.