The best snub-fighter pilots

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-19 09:29am

Okay, then his name just plain sucks...

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-12-19 09:41am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Okay, then his name just plain sucks...

Dammit, and I was gonna use it as my porn movie name!

-- Joe Momma

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-12-19 10:22am

doesnt matter what anyone says, Corran Horn is a douchebag. doesnt matter how great he is at anything im never investing a any of my money on any EU product that features him except in very minor roles.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-19 10:32am

Horn should have been killed during the NJO.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-12-19 11:13am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Horn should have been killed during the NJO.

Weren't they goin to kill him off, but Stackpole whined like a wee girl about it?

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-12-19 11:17am

Grr! I still haven't been able to find a copy of The Unifying Force! And I can't get one online due to lack of credit card!

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-12-19 11:50am

The unifying Force wrote:
Shimmra : j00 4r3 Teh Suxx0r!

Luke Skywalker: LMFAO! Sek07 is 1337!

Nom Anor: Boo Im a ghost!

Jacen Solo: Do what now?

Unnamed Japanese Televsion Game Show Host: SUPER FUN Dance WHackY tIMe FUN HOUR!

(everyone dances)

Han Solo and Leia: Good Guys win. Yaaay!

There now you dont need to buy the book.
-------------------------------------------------

Remember when Vader took his TIE Advanced out in Shadows of the Empire? He literally smoked five or six X Wings effortlessly and then grew bored with the lack of challenge before returning to the Executor.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-12-19 12:14pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:
The unifying Force wrote:<snip>
There now you dont need to buy the book.

That was a dirty trick.
But luckily I didn't read any of it!

It's pretty fucking obvious that the Jedi win, it's the how, why, etc I wanna know.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-12-19 01:08pm

Corran's arrogance is his main character flaw, and it's what prevented him from being able to use the Force properly early on. It's why I can relate to the character and I like him... he's like me and thinks like I do.

He probably has some kind of bewildered and stupid look on his face each time his reality comes crashing apart when he's wrong and nearly gets himself killed as a result. That's how I imagine it each time I read it, anyway... I know that's how I'd look. Ever sit back and just notice how often that happens? Or how often he assumes attention is centered on him when it isn't? Right after the Lusankya busted out, Corran just couldn't shut up after being told repeatedly to do so. This isn't a character flaw?

Also notice how Erisi made advancements toward him and he allowed himself to believe that such advancements to him are to be expected, even though she was a traitor. (Again, something I could fall victim to.

)

In short, if you don't like Corran, you probably wouldn't like me in person, either.

(Mind you, I'm probably not as bad as he can be, but I can certainly relate to the way he thinks.)

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-12-19 01:33pm

Joe Momma wrote: Except he misses a very basic clue and is thus almost killed by Kun before Mara Jade arrives to save the day. And during the climactic battle with the Jen'Saraii, he realizes that Luke is such a vastly superior fighter (when he's paying attention to what he's doing, unlike their earlier sparring match) that all Luke needs him for "is to hold his cloak."

And yet, he's present in all the climatic scenes set up in Jedi Academy, he's the one who broke Exar Kun power by smashing his statue with two proton torpedoes, in one of the most contrived scenes ever, he's the one who doesn't fear the call of the Dark Side when facing off against the pirates.

Plus, let's not forget one more thing. Super, Long, Lightsabre. No doubt, modelled after that crapper who turned to the Dark Side, who incidently IIRC, fought Corran Horn.

Luke turned to him during the investigation into the deaths at the Jedi Academy because Corran used to be a cop. Is this any different from asking Leia for info about politics? And when Luke's put into a coma by Kun, Corran realizes he drastically misjudged his enemy and would have seen this coming if he hadn't been so confident in his initial conclusions that he ignored important clues.

Read the sections involved again. Luke wasn't turning to him for advice, it was almost as if Luke was seeking reassurance from an relatively unknown pilot, even if he is famous as Rogue Nine. Rogue Nine essentially dictated the terms to Luke.

Furthermore, the fact that Corran is apparently so important in the Jedi Academy setup, and the fact that he could and did conduct an independent investigation into Exaar Kun, and understood more about him than anybody else doesn't suggest a thing?

Again, the most revolting aspect of Mary Sueing is how the important characters, and the story arc revolves around an unimportant character. Its self gratification, and is something that all GM, Fanfic authors and writers must take care to avoid.

[QquoteWhich is why he needed Luke to save his ass from the Jen'Saraii, Mara to save him from Kun, Elegos to bail him out after his headlong rush to confront the Hutt crimelord, his fellow Jedi to save him from the Vong during the first part of Stackpole's NJO duology, etc..[/quote]
Stick to I Jedi please, because first of all, the fact remains that in the X-wing series, Corran Horn is just a part of the team, whereas in the NJO duology, he was Mary Sued to the extent that the arc revolves around him, despite the fact that he isn't vital to the effort. He's the one who's popular, the old guru and wise one who teaches others the folly of their ways, the one who has the patience and wit and wisdom and blah blah blah. However, in the duology, he has the *right* to do it, because by then, he has evolved into an important part of the Jedi setup.

Furthermore, the fact that Luke had to abandon his efforts to rescue him, thus becoming a "sidekick", indicates otherwise.

And after he gave Luke that lecture, he later realized how wrong he was while infiltrating the pirate group and even turned to Elegos for help. There half a chapter later in I, Jedi where Corran's basically freaking out because he realized just how close he came to falling despite his speech to Luke.

And so? He still doesn't fear the call of the Dark Side. Remember, he triumphed over it, and it left no visible scar on him. Compare this to Luke brush with the Dark Side in the movies and Dark Empire. In the movies, he became aware of his heritage with Darth Vader and this burned away his illusions about life once more. In Dark Empire, falling to the Dark Side has taught him much fear and caution. Again, the key is character development when adversity occurs. Otherwise, its becomes the standard episode fare, and its worse because in this case, its the hyping of a frankly, unimportant character.

Mary-Sueing is the reason why some many people write Fanfics and write themselves into it, or have the main character and project his/her own traits into them. In literature, especially in a franchise like Star Wars, its unavoidable that Mary Sueing will occur. All writers have their own bias, their own favourite characters and their own conceptions, especially if they like the franchise universe in the first place. However, it becomes horrendous when the presence of a minor character twists the whole story towards it like a black hole. And that's the whole problem actually, when writers introduce their own characters, how to make it a major character instead. Look at Grand Admiral Thrawn, a construct of Zahn. His enduring popularity has propelled him into a major character of the series, such that an entire race, timeline and portion of the galaxy is dedicated to his memory. Corran Horn just isn't important enough in I Jedi to do what he does.

Indeed, consider that Mary Sue come from Star Trek, where an ensign named Mary will have the power to save the day, dictate to (was it kirk or Picard?), and be the nice one everybody loves or loves to hate.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-12-19 03:39pm

PainRack wrote:Plus, let's not forget one more thing. Super, Long, Lightsabre. No doubt, modelled after that crapper who turned to the Dark Side, who incidently IIRC, fought Corran Horn.

Yes, and it's explicily stated as being based on Gantoris's lightsaber. I'm not sure what your point is there, other than Corran saw a rival's penis extension and had to have one too (which is in-character for him).

Painrack wrote:
Joe Momma wrote:Luke turned to him during the investigation into the deaths at the Jedi Academy because Corran used to be a cop. Is this any different from asking Leia for info about politics? And when Luke's put into a coma by Kun, Corran realizes he drastically misjudged his enemy and would have seen this coming if he hadn't been so confident in his initial conclusions that he ignored important clues.
Read the sections involved again. Luke wasn't turning to him for advice, it was almost as if Luke was seeking reassurance from an relatively unknown pilot, even if he is famous as Rogue Nine. Rogue Nine essentially dictated the terms to Luke.

Furthermore, the fact that Corran is apparently so important in the Jedi Academy setup, and the fact that he could and did conduct an independent investigation into Exaar Kun, and understood more about him than anybody else doesn't suggest a thing?

Um, maybe it suggests he used to conduct such investigations professionally back when he was with Corellian Security? Luke was aware of Corran's identity and former line of work after all. IIRC, Corran had even had some specific experience with psychopaths like Kun before, which isn't surprising given his undercover work with Corellian criminals.

Again, the most revolting aspect of Mary Sueing is how the important characters, and the story arc revolves around an unimportant character. Its self gratification, and is something that all GM, Fanfic authors and writers must take care to avoid.

Now that I wouldn't argue with.

I was taking issue with claims that Corran was being depicted as supremely skilled, for which I don't think there's much evidence. Corran being an inappropriate center of attention in some stories, I do agree with.

I didn't think it was as bad in most of I, Jedi because he was supposed to be the main character. Retroactively inserting him in the JA books was undoubtedly Mary Sueing at times, but I also got the impression that was more indicative of Stackpole's attempts to fix some of the awful idiocies in that trilogy. I think the worst example of Mary Sueing had to be the second book of Stackpole's NJO duology where he more-or-less single-handedly decided the fate of Ithor.

In addition to your examples of overstated importance, I'll also add the fact that Corran felt he had to take on a secret identity at the Jedi Academy because otherwise everyone would be too distracted by having such a famous guy around.

And after he gave Luke that lecture, he later realized how wrong he was while infiltrating the pirate group and even turned to Elegos for help. There half a chapter later in I, Jedi where Corran's basically freaking out because he realized just how close he came to falling despite his speech to Luke.
And so? He still doesn't fear the call of the Dark Side. (SNIP) Otherwise, its becomes the standard episode fare, and its worse because in this case, its the hyping of a frankly, unimportant character.

I wasn't arguing that the character is well written either. I'm just pointing out that the criticisms of Corran supposedly being more skilled than every other character are erroneous.

Still, I'd note that maybe it had less of an effect on Horn because he never truly crossed over to the Dark Side, unlike Luke. He'd also been exposed to a lot of ugly things during his time as a police officer and had been forced to confront similar issues during his time as an undercover cop, so it was in some ways already familiar philosophical territory for him.

-- Joe Momma

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-19 03:42pm

Okay, he's still not Superman. Character/personality flaws: As already stated, he's overwhelmingly arrogant but his self-illusions are not reality, and if you read carefully you will see that. This is a major limitation. Power limitations: These do exist, thank you. For his Jedi abilities: No telekinesis. Can't call his lightsaber to him, can't levitate, can't boost a jump, hell he can't even toss a pebble to distract a stormtrooper! For piloting: This comes back to the arrogance. Fighter jocks are supposed to be arrogant. He thinks he's the best, but he's easily outclassed by Wedge, Tycho, Fel, Luke, Janson, Hobbie, and likely a whole pile of others.

Oh, and about the extra-long lightsaber: Gantoris had one, and didn't at least one other character try to build one? Its not a Corran-only thing.

Edit: Posted at the same time as Joe. Some parts of our posts are probably redundant, but I'm too lazy to delete.

Just so you know why.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-12-19 11:42pm

Shrug, he is special in that way. He's not super-uber at all.

Frankly, I never really like Corran, until the NJO came out, and that's only because the situations and roles he played in the NJO fitted his situation as a major character.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-12-20 12:54am

Darth Vader. Come on! Granted, he appears to relie quite heavily on the Force, but that's legal.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-12-20 08:30am

I'd just like to point out ti the corran bashers that I, Jedi was written from the 1st person perspective of Corran therefore his arrogance is shading everything. If you just take the time to extract your self from corran's biased point of veiw you will see that he's clearly not better than any one else during the book. Tycho easily outflies him even Ooryl almost outflies him and Luke would have easlily laid the smack-down on him if he'd been concentrating on the fight.

Captain_Birdseye · Post by **Captain_Birdseye** » 2003-12-20 07:26pm

Darth Vader is the best pilot around. He has his own personal customised fighter, thats how good he is. Plus the minor advantage that he has force power puts him on top of the rest. He doesn't need to waste time putting on a fighter pilot suit hence he can scramble at a moments notice.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-12-22 09:03pm

PainRack wrote:And yet, he's present in all the climatic scenes set up in Jedi Academy, he's the one who broke Exar Kun power by smashing his statue with two proton torpedoes, in one of the most contrived scenes ever, he's the one who doesn't fear the call of the Dark Side when facing off against the pirates.

Um, as I recall, he only blew up the statue at the very end, after the other students had long since dealt with it. As I remember it, he was getting his ass kicked, and only Mara Jade, and Kun deciding to go after the other students, saved him.