Territorial holdings & population of the Empire, etc.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-19 10:26am

HDS, did you read his earlier comments? He's trying to maintain the spirit if possible without consulting too many EU sources, because he's engaging Scooter and he knows he'll try and use the mere existance of EU sources as a pretext for dismissing his arguments.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-19 10:41am

I don't know why anyone bother's accomodating Scooter's fantasies about the admissibility of the EU at all, frankly.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-19 10:54am

Vympel wrote:I don't know why anyone bother's accomodating Scooter's fantasies about the admissibility of the EU at all, frankly.

Maybe it's akin to boxing with one arm tied behind your back?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2004-01-19 12:13pm

Stofsk, yes, exactly. I try to use EU sources as rarely as I can and speculate on the canon (then giving notes on EU). Except some thingies worth mentioning (the not-line-of-sight artillery ability of the SPHA-T is one of those), I don't spend much of the webpage on EU.
His Divine Shadow
I speculate on the canon first. If I need to, I mention the EU source data. And, as I already said, I will include the WEG stats for additional support.

No it doesn't, the problem is you are over intreprepting everything that is said, it's just a colloquialism.

Well why the hell would one subjugate UNinhabited worlds with the Death Star? I don't get it. Maybe that's my English. To my mind, the Tarkin quote is enough to claim that he's speaking about inhabited systems.
I see no reason as to why the Republic should be that much smaller
That is not so.

The Republic was built on tolerance. It was a vast network of tens of thousands of systems, and even more species, each with a distinct perspective.

AOTC novel. Tens of thousands would NOT be used if the Republic had HUNDREDS up to a million.

In the time of Qui-Gon Jinn, ten thousand Jedi Knights in service to the Republic carried on the struggle each day of their lives in a hundred thousand different worlds spread across a galaxy so vast it could barely be comprehended.

This TPM nov. quote regards the number of worlds the Jedi service on. Although it is not open-stated that it is the number of Republic member worlds, that is implied, IMHO.
Another issue is that we have thousands of Senators in the Republic Senate. Now, if that is even 9.000 senators, each Senator would have had to be a representative of 100 systems to make a near million for Republic members.
But that is not so even as I assume that, using EU data:

Some Senators represent only a single world, while so-called sectorial Senators represent multiple worlds within the same sector.

A total of 1,024 repulsorlift platforms lined the interior space of the Senate rotunda.

starwars.com
Whatever, the Republic is not that huge. Of course, if we're only speaking of members.

Not to mention the vaugeness of that statement

Vagueness? Two statements above. The "Jedi service" one is not that clear, but the other is enough TMM.

"That implies that the Empire can't have 1.000.000 fully inhabited member systems."

That's not MY words. I speak for the "A" guy in the Q&A. "Q's are composed from RSA arguments (yes, he does not admit the Empire has 1.000.000 members, because the Republic did not have such number

) and other stuff as well.

everything else I've seen is just vauge stuff thats mentioned in the same spirit as one might say

Vague stuff like Han Solo's "I've been across the Galaxy" is really something that can be thrown away due to Han's boasting. But when statements are NOT made by characters speaking, but rather by the author's depictation, it is not something that can be easily disregarded.

when we have the figures in the forms of dry enyclopedic facts

Yes, and I do know the EU data. I already told why I am not using it.

it's an game. Called Cold War. Trying to beat the opponent on his field, y' know

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2004-01-19 01:41pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:HDS, did you read his earlier comments? He's trying to maintain the spirit if possible without consulting too many EU sources, because he's engaging Scooter and he knows he'll try and use the mere existance of EU sources as a pretext for dismissing his arguments.

Yes there is that ofcourse, but I don't see why one should even humor scooter by pretending to give a shit about his "rules"

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2004-01-19 01:58pm

Well why the hell would one subjugate UNinhabited worlds with the Death Star? I don't get it. Maybe that's my English. To my mind, the Tarkin quote is enough to claim that he's speaking about inhabited systems.

All I remember Tarkin say is the deathstar will bind the million worlds of the empire together or something along those lines, that just reeks of collquialism to me, he might as well have said that the deathstar will bind the empire together because he was not trying to bring forward any accurate representation of the Empires size and scope beyond that it was in the million range.

AOTC novel. Tens of thousands would NOT be used if the Republic had HUNDREDS up to a million.

I never saw a problem with that quote, given already existing evidence this again just strikes me as someone saying "the republic is big, very big"
I never felt the need to take it to the point where it meant less than a million, or millions..
Ofcourse that is in light of evidence you might not be allowed to take into consideration.

Another issue is that we have thousands of Senators in the Republic Senate. Now, if that is even 9.000 senators, each Senator would have had to be a representative of 100 systems to make a near million for Republic members.

As per the quote you showed below I should point out that Amidala represented 36 full-member worlds, or atleast she represented Naboo amonst the other 36, and those worlds combined had over 40,000 settled dependencies, thats 635 systems per senator if so, and thats the "lightly populated chommell sector".
But, I believe each seat in the senate represent a sector, so Amidala represents her entire sector in the senate as one.

A total of 1,024 repulsorlift platforms lined the interior space of the Senate rotunda.

It would seem that each seat in the senate represents not a world, but a sector and their worlds, I say so because the ICS quote seems to hint that the republic has over a thousand sectors, the empire had even more sectors:
========================
Pg. 5: Even in this sturdy vessel, however, a thorough home constituency tour could last a lifetime in Padme's lightly populated Chommell Sector, which comprises 36 full-member worlds, more than 40,000 settled dependencies, and 300,000,000 barren stars. With more than 1,000 sectors, the galaxy's deceptively fragile harmony depends on efficient dvision of authority within the multi-tierd government, and upon the wisdom of its roving officials.
========================
-Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections

Using the worlds Amidala and her seat is representing I get a figure of 36,864 full member worlds and 40,960,000 other worlds.
Ofcourse this is using the Chommell sector as a sort of average, when it's actually lightly populated.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-19 02:04pm

ISB indicates no less than 4000+ Sectors in the Empire at her height (multiple regions each containing thousands--bare minimum is 2000 for each of 2 sectors).

Keep in mind the Galactic Senate is not straight-sectorial representation--the TradeFed had a seat, and presumably the other corporate consortiums as well, and consider the Mining Guild owns billions of uninhabited planets across the Rim...

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2004-01-20 07:27am

His Divine Shadow

All I remember Tarkin say is the deathstar will bind the million worlds of the empire together

Yes. Doesn't that imply worlds are populated?

Why would Tarkin refer to UNpopulated worlds, especially in his dialogue with Leia which touches the loyalty of inhabited systems.

saying "the republic is big, very big"

Hm. Given what you say:

36,864 full member worlds

That is more than consistent with all what I said. I wasn't counting all worlds of the Republic, too, only member worlds.
If we lift that up to a 100.000 member worlds (per "Jedi service" quote wich now also consistent with what you say), we'll get the number I used for Republic member world estimate.
I don't see any contradiction between what you say and what the novels say.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2004-01-21 10:52am

Okey-dokey.
His Divine Shadow and Illuminatus Primus, thank you for your comments and criticism.
The EU data which you noted is included, as well as some other corrections made.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-21 01:06pm

Where did I say the Empire has less than a million inhabited worlds?
It was you who said this right?

Is was a statement in a question that was to be refuted. It is for this reason that I propose you use different colors for question and answer.
If possible, you could also give page numbers for your quotes.

Then there are some wording problems. You say
" Also, if the Empire had less member worlds, that would contradict the EU."
It would sound better to say that your claim is supported by EU, because EU cannot contradict canon.
Below you state that " it is BTW contradiction with the EU". Again, it would sound better to say that your statement is additionally supported by EU.
This way you might evade Mr.A's attacks against your using of EU evidence on these points.

I did not understand the meaning of

we know no other interplanetary states that the Galactic Empire (in EU there exist Hutt sectors,

There is a verb missing. Plus, there is only one Hutt sector, and I would put a "the" after "exist".

The Millennium Falcon definitely went into light-speed. It's probably somewhere on the other side of the galaxy by now.

This does sound like an exaggeration, since it can't be that fast.

I really like your site, I just want to point out possible points of attack before you go intp battle; that is why I might seem a little bit nitpicky here.