Evacuation

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-02-07 12:25am

Would it even be possible to evacuate Coruscant in the time of the Empire with whatever resources you need? How many people would be evacuating? How long would it take you?

What about all of the Core Worlds? How many ships would it take? What kind of ships would you use to safely bring all citizens to safty using hyperdrive equipped ships?

Weird question but it could be vital to a fanfic I am writing.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2004-02-07 01:04am

Well, most sources say that Coruscant's inhabitants number in the trillions. Now given in the NJO this didn't happen. Things to take into consideration is lenght of time. I'll assume it's not indefinite or you wouldn't be asking. If the Empire really had to evacuate the planet, they'd have thier shuttles and transports ferrying the loyal citizens out. So let's do this, to help you out. If it's the Empire they will take thier loyal citizens. Human first, non human if they feel like it. Plus they are more miltarized, so they could probably hold off most attacks long enough. Coruscant itself has numerous defeneses not to mention her double grid like planetary shield.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-07 11:47am

No problem, all the high-level Imperial personnel will have their own ships. Or did you want to evacuate all n trillion people?

Remember, there will also be elderly people, patients on intensive care, homeless people, etc. Evacuating a hospital is a major operation that requires all the manpower a city has, including crisis teams and units from neighbouring cities, and still takes several hours. Evacuating all hospitals and all the homes for elderly people would take several days. Doing this while the rest of the city is also being evacuated, which means traffic jams, panic, etc., would be a horrific undertaking.

The city I used to live in has ~3000 hospital beds. On weekdays there are 26 ambulances in service, which can be reinforced by crisis teams, which have a transport capacity of ~40. There are some backup units, so let's say the total capacity is 100. That means every unit has to drive 30 times from the hospital to the spaceport and back. Every turn would take them about an hour, with loading and unloading, and I didn't account for traffic jams. Then you would have to transport trillions of people to a safe planet. Not only do you need the capacity to do that, but you have to take into account the number of transports that can be loaded simultaneously.
I don't think it is possible to complete the whole operation within less than two days.

You will also have to take care that sensitive data is erased, secret material destroyed, political prisoners killed, ... I'd say it would take several days to evacuate all but an insignificant fraction.
If you want to return to the planet, you have to leave troopers to prevent looting from the people that stayed.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-02-07 06:33pm

What about the comlete evacution of all the Core Worlds, only the loyal Imperial though in a reasonable amount of time, say enough time so the people are evacuated before a fleet coming from the outer rim gets to them.

Ronaldo · Post by **Ronaldo** » 2004-02-07 11:13pm

Cal Wright wrote: Plus they are more miltarized, so they could probably hold off most attacks long enough. Coruscant itself has numerous defeneses not to mention her double grid like planetary shield.

The New Republic put up a pathetic defense of Coruscant when the YV attacked. Had the YV tried that attack during the reign of the Emperor they would have most likely been defeated. Coruscant had excellent defenses and should not even needed to have been evacuated.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-02-08 02:01am

Techno_Union wrote:What about the comlete evacution of all the Core Worlds, only the loyal Imperial though in a reasonable amount of time, say enough time so the people are evacuated before a fleet coming from the outer rim gets to them.

If a fleet is coming in from the Outer Rim without opposition, you have a day, maybe less, to evacuate. The more effective a long-range defense you can put in their way, the longer you have, though I assume they will defeat the Navy eventually if you're actually evacuating hundreds of trillions of beings--one would assume you'd only take that step if you knew for sure you couldn't stop them.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-02-08 03:57am

Ronaldo wrote:
Cal Wright wrote: Plus they are more miltarized, so they could probably hold off most attacks long enough. Coruscant itself has numerous defeneses not to mention her double grid like planetary shield.
The New Republic put up a pathetic defense of Coruscant when the YV attacked. Had the YV tried that attack during the reign of the Emperor they would have most likely been defeated. Coruscant had excellent defenses and should not even needed to have been evacuated.

Did you even read Star by Star? The NRDF put up a massive fight. Three of the five waves of Vong ships were wipped out. Over 30,000 ships and skips were deployed against Courscant in the battle for Courscant.

Also it takes quite a while for ships to cross the SW Galaxy. The NJO is very clear on this poitn. Under ideal conditions down well charted trade lanes, a fast ship can blast clear across the Galaxy in a day or two. But large FLEETS moving between even closish planets can take quite a time. Both times fleets launched from Borialis to attack Courscant, the trip took a day or two. So you should have plenty of time to plan an evacuation if you can bring in enough ships. Courscant has a Trillion people on it and that is going to rquire an aweful lot of planing. Where are the people going to be sent for example?

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-02-08 04:26pm

Lets say the Empire has already made plans for an evacuation if they ever needed one, so there would be 3 hyperlanes (specialy created for the evacutaion) from the core worlds to 3 bases on the outer rim one would be the Kamino system and the other 2 would be on opposite sides of the galaxy in the unknown territories, all able to hold trillions of people if needed. All the bases would be expecting the evacuees and would be prepared to house all of them in stations or planets. I might have it to where a base near Byss could have evacuees and then they would be moved to the other bases in the outer rim.

The only way I could see a complete evacuation of the Core Worlds is if the Empire's defense fleets were unable to hold off or completly destroy their enemies. In the fanfic I am writing, there will probably be a force that could challenge the Empire's forces.

Ronaldo · Post by **Ronaldo** » 2004-02-08 11:51pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:
Ronaldo wrote:
Cal Wright wrote: Plus they are more miltarized, so they could probably hold off most attacks long enough. Coruscant itself has numerous defeneses not to mention her double grid like planetary shield.
The New Republic put up a pathetic defense of Coruscant when the YV attacked. Had the YV tried that attack during the reign of the Emperor they would have most likely been defeated. Coruscant had excellent defenses and should not even needed to have been evacuated.

Did you even read Star by Star? The NRDF put up a massive fight. Three of the five waves of Vong ships were wipped out. Over 30,000 ships and skips were deployed against Courscant in the battle for Courscant.

Also it takes quite a while for ships to cross the SW Galaxy. The NJO is very clear on this poitn. Under ideal conditions down well charted trade lanes, a fast ship can blast clear across the Galaxy in a day or two. But large FLEETS moving between even closish planets can take quite a time. Both times fleets launched from Borialis to attack Courscant, the trip took a day or two. So you should have plenty of time to plan an evacuation if you can bring in enough ships. Courscant has a Trillion people on it and that is going to rquire an aweful lot of planing. Where are the people going to be sent for example?

All of that hard fighting by the NR's fleet was meaningless once they decided to lower the shield to allow the refugee ships to land. At least that is how I remember it happening. The NR could have held onto Coruscant if the politicians would have let the military do its job. Coruscant fell because of the inept leadership of the NR. I did not mean to criticize necessarily the performance of the NR fleet during the engagement.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-02-09 12:02am

Cal Wright wrote:Well, most sources say that Coruscant's inhabitants number in the trillions. Now given in the NJO this didn't happen. Things to take into consideration is lenght of time. I'll assume it's not indefinite or you wouldn't be asking. If the Empire really had to evacuate the planet, they'd have thier shuttles and transports ferrying the loyal citizens out. So let's do this, to help you out. If it's the Empire they will take thier loyal citizens. Human first, non human if they feel like it. Plus they are more miltarized, so they could probably hold off most attacks long enough. Coruscant itself has numerous defeneses not to mention her double grid like planetary shield.

Well, it's safe to say that many who foresaw what would happen got off Coruscant well before the Vong came a knocking towards the end of Star by Star.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2004-02-09 02:06am

Ronaldo wrote:
Cal Wright wrote: Plus they are more miltarized, so they could probably hold off most attacks long enough. Coruscant itself has numerous defeneses not to mention her double grid like planetary shield.
The New Republic put up a pathetic defense of Coruscant when the YV attacked. Had the YV tried that attack during the reign of the Emperor they would have most likely been defeated. Coruscant had excellent defenses and should not even needed to have been evacuated.

No argument there. However, for the sake of argument, let's say something like in the infinities line there are multiple Death Stars. Say the Empire is right at the end of Jedi and the warlords scrabbled and got SSDs, and Death Stars. So they're all going to jump Coruscant at one time. Let's just make some bullshit up. However, I think you get the point. Just for a FYI situation to how the Empire could evacuate.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2004-02-09 02:13am

Chris OFarrell wrote:

Did you even read Star by Star?

Yeah. Unlike you, I got past the front cover. One of the few EU books worth reading.

The NRDF put up a massive fight.

No they didn't. They ran around like chickens with thier heads cut off.

hree of the five waves of Vong ships were wipped out. Over 30,000 ships and skips were deployed against Courscant in the battle for Courscant.

Isn't that the part where they actually for once, did a surprise attack? Once the element of surprise was over, the NR went back to the normal position of 'bitch'?

Also it takes quite a while for ships to cross the SW Galaxy.

Don't drag that bullshit in here. The Falcon (a far superior ship to the Defiant) can cross the galaxy in approx. 12 hours to a day. Say whatever you want, but in Star Wars, the galaxy isn't anything more than a hop jump and a skip away. This isn't the Federation.

The NJO is very clear on this poitn. Under ideal conditions down well charted trade lanes, a fast ship can blast clear across the Galaxy in a day or two. But large FLEETS moving between even closish planets can take quite a time.

It's very clear that most writers of EU don't have the true grasp on things. The RotJ novelisation makes it quite clear that a fleet needs nothing more than precision. Time is irrelevant.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-02-09 05:26am

Cal Wright wrote:
No they didn't. They ran around like chickens with thier heads cut off.

And clearly you didn't read it then. Command broke down between Bel'Ilbs fleet group and the NR high command. However this does not equate to them not putting up a massive fight. Bel'Ilbs and Wedge were constently engaged with the Vong over the days they advanced on Courscant, Wedge performing a running attack on their rear, Bel'Ilbs sitting at the front and blasting through and into the refugee to get to the Vong. Hell when they finaly reached Courscant after the running battle, Bel'Ilbs simply stoped his ships dead in their path and used them as static battlestations, blasting at everyone as the Vong formation moved past and through him, all but killing his fleet in the effort to stop their momentum. Then the Vong had to blast their way through the orbital weapons stations and minefields, suffer the surface to space turbolaser barrages as they advanced onto the planets surface.

The New Republic did not run around without co-ordination or not put up a terrific fight, they made the Vong pay for every inch of space they took towards Courscant. Go and bloody read the book this time.

Isn't that the part where they actually for once, did a surprise attack? Once the element of surprise was over, the NR went back to the normal position of 'bitch'?

What? No thats the *TOTAL VONG LOSSES* in the attack. 60% of their fleet was destroyed by the New Republic defence and the New Republic was BADLY outnumbered in this battle. The NR was overwhelmed through shear numbers, Vong waves just flung again and again at the defenders until they smashed through. This tactic came back to haunt them later in the NJO, from Destinies Way onward, when it was shown the Vong now lacked anything like the fleet numbers they needed to guard their new space thanks to Lah wasting away so much of their fleet.

Don't drag that bullshit in here. The Falcon (a far superior ship to the Defiant) can cross the galaxy in approx. 12 hours to a day. Say whatever you want, but in Star Wars, the galaxy isn't anything more than a hop jump and a skip away. This isn't the Federation.

Ok wise guy.

1. Nothing in here was said about the Defiant and I don't have a fucking clue why you brought ST into this.
2. The Falcon is not a fleet.
3. Go and fucking READ the NJO books you claim to have read. The NJO is the first real example in SW of massive empire war, two massive factions with massive fleets in an all out war. And its made VERY clear that sending fleets across the Galaxy is a very large undertaking that can take weeks depending on where you start and where you want to go. Ships jump from hyperspace lane to hyperspace lane to get where they want to go. Well charted and scouted out routes. In some cases, the Corellian Trade spine for example, they streach very long distances and on a fast ship (and the Falcon is one of the fastest) you can move massive distances in a matter of hours. In other cases, especialy for large groups of Capital ships, it can and will take days or even weeks. There is ample examples of this in the EU. Such as:

The first NR assault on Courscant from Borialis. The Rebel fleet launched for Courscant and took over a day to reach it, despite being (in terms of galactic distances) extreemly close to each other and the NR having every reason to move as fast as possible.

The Vong attack on Mon Cal from Courscant/Yun'tisar in 'The Unifying Force'. Much is made in this book of trade routes serving as the path between the core and outer rim. Much as a highway, you speed down it, then jump from system to system to reach your target. The Vong for example spead down the Perlemian Trade Route, suffering minefields each time they droped out of hyperspace to reorient for another leg, then jumping to the two logical planets to stage an attack on Mon Cal from, Toong'l and Caluula.

Hyperspace routes are very importaint in Destinys way, when they make traps for the Vong and are able to lure them into apparently 'dead end' systems with only one safe hyperspace route in, though there are several more. THis will also come back in Unifying as the NR uses newly discovered routes into the Courscant system to arrive without warning.

Dark Tide II, Ruin. Borsk Feylea makes the same kind of comments that you have been making about hyperspace. In response, he loads up a holograph of the Galaxy showing just how dynamic hyperspace travel is between worlds. Hence of course the use of navicomputers to work out routes to take.

Of course Zokma Sekot, the living planet is clear proof of this. In the unknown regions, its hyperdrive malfunctions and it gets thrown into the mid rim. But it has to jump around in small jumps until it gets back onto a trade route which can take it to hyperspace.

Or the Falcon in Destinies Way. GOing from Mon CAl to the Imperial Remaint. They took quite a lot of time to cross what isn't THAT far in Galactic terms, having to drop out a lot of the time to chage their course. And of course the Vong didn't help, when they cross the Perlemian Trade Route they ran into a Vong interdictor.

And when Wedge launched his attack on Bilbringi, Pelleaon had an interdictor on picket duty on the main routes into Bilbringii. Given the extreemly small influence and range of the Gravity well projectors, the hyperspace route it was guarding must not be that wide in physical terms if they were planing on pulling all ships out that were on the route. We also have the clear showing of the Vong and Allied ships using specific routes to get in and out. And the fact that they had to conqure certian planets for staging points and to gain hyperspace access to other systems, they couldn't just bypass the systems and make their own route, they HAD to conquer enemy systems to gain a hyperspace route in.

In short, while the Falcon may have gotten halfway across the Galaxy in a day between two planets, it doesn't mean that the Falcon could get to ANY planet in the Galaxy in half a day. It could easily take a VERY long time.

Other books are also clear on this. The one that comes to mind imediatly in Courtship of Princess Leia. The best routes and speeds to Daithmor from Courscant would have taken the Hapien fleet two weeks to get there. Luke used the force to navigate the fleet there and shaved off half the time the best navicomputers could come up with. In fact that navigation issue is gone into with a certian amount of depth in that chapter IIRC.

And I'm quite sure I can find quite a few other examples if you REALY want them.

It's very clear that most writers of EU don't have the true grasp on things. The RotJ novelisation makes it quite clear that a fleet needs nothing more than precision. Time is irrelevant.

No its very clear that YOU don't have a grasp on things. Sullest was chosen as the jump off point for the attack on Endor BECAUSE of the very fact that it was a straight in hyperspace route to Endor. Imperial intel knew this quite well. Remember Vader saying 'What of the reports of the Rebel fleet massing at Sullest' to the Emperor?

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-02-09 06:04am

Did not most higher canon sources put the population of Coruscant in the (1) trillion? Or more exactly in the 960 billions?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-09 08:17am

The highest number for Corscunt population I have seen is 200 trillion.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-02-09 08:23am

I know that there are three digit trillions figures lurking around. What I asked was, is the one trillion figure that of higher rank among the many levels of oficiality of the EU materials?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-02-09 08:27am

I dont think the EU ever gave exact numbers for Corscunt population.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2004-02-09 08:47am

Dr. Saxton wrote:The population density of Imperial City is certainly at least several hundred times that of Perth. The total population of Coruscant must be at least of the order of several thousand trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000), and certainly no less than several hundred trillion.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/astro.html#coruscant

Ronaldo · Post by **Ronaldo** » 2004-02-10 01:45pm

Wild Karrde wrote:
Dr. Saxton wrote:The population density of Imperial City is certainly at least several hundred times that of Perth. The total population of Coruscant must be at least of the order of several thousand trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000), and certainly no less than several hundred trillion.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/astro.html#coruscant

Most of the official sources that I have seen give Coruscant a population of approximately 1 trillion. The Galactic Campaign sourcebook or Planets sourcebook for the new RPG gives Coruscant a total population of 1 trillion, which is absurdly low. I don't think the NJO gives a concrete figure, but I think it is implied that there aren't more than a few trillion people at most on the planet.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2004-02-10 02:32pm

The EU has consistantly gotten Coruscant's population numbers wrong.

Even if you take NJO's number of several trillion as high-end that would leave about 99% of the city planet completely deserted.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-02-10 02:40pm

Wild Karrde wrote:The EU has consistantly gotten Coruscant's population numbers wrong.

Even if you take NJO's number of several trillion as high-end that would leave about 99% of the city planet completely deserted.

Especially since the total casualties for the entire war is estimated to nbe about 350, 375 trillion I think.

The bright side being that there's going to be plently of living space to go around in the SW galaxy for a while, though...

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2004-02-10 03:28pm

JME2 wrote:Especially since the total casualties for the entire war is estimated to nbe about 350, 375 trillion I think.

I'm pretty sure TUF stated 375 Trillion.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-02-10 03:42pm

Mlenk wrote:
JME2 wrote:Especially since the total casualties for the entire war is estimated to nbe about 350, 375 trillion I think.
I'm pretty sure TUF stated 375 Trillion.

I just don't have TUF handy so I can't verify it myself.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2004-02-10 03:53pm

I'll look it up when I get home tonight