Which side are you on?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 02:48am

Alderaan was, to quote Vader from the radio dramatization, "one of the foremost worlds of the Inner Systems." Bail Organa was a Rebel sympathizer. This did not extend to his whole population, nor did it merit the destruction of the entire planet. Given that Alderaan had no weapons, an assault shuttle full of stormtroopers would have been quite sufficient.

Then there's the Tarkin Doctrine. Ring a bell?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-17 02:53am

Uh...Alderaan had no weapons?

They may have been a peaceful people...but the novel states they were a match for any core world and the fact that Leia and her ship was armed say other wise.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-02-17 02:59am

Rogue 9 wrote:Alderaan was, to quote Vader from the radio dramatization, "one of the foremost worlds of the Inner Systems." Bail Organa was a Rebel sympathizer. This did not extend to his whole population, nor did it merit the destruction of the entire planet. Given that Alderaan had no weapons, an assault shuttle full of stormtroopers would have been quite sufficient. Then there's the Tarkin Doctrine. Ring a bell?

A platoon of stormtroopers versus a planet? Really. Do you really think Alderaanians really are as peaceful as their propaganda? What are those defensive troopers on that corvette? Think there really won't be any at where Organa works? Really.

This is also part of Rebel policy. The Rebels, most annoyingly in the X-Wing series, tends to promote the idea there are no real innocents, that in not fighting against 'evil' you are condoning it. According to some, like Elscol Loro in Bacta War, you can't even CHOOSE to remain with the Empire. Stackpole tries and dresses that position up so it doesn't sound so bad, but read below for an extension of that policy:

Now, let's apply that rule from the Imperial POV for Alderaan. There is no evidence of anybody in Alderaan rising up against Organa, right? Therefore, they are all condoning the Rebellion, and supportive of it. If you have a planet made up of all Rebels, then vaping it mere efficiency, right?

Besides, I have no doubt Tarkin was not in the top of tolerance moods against a Rebellion that recently stole his pet and nearly killed him.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 03:00am

Fine, but I'd figure Imperial Intelligence would be able to see through a lie so obvious as that if it was a lie, making its telling on Leia's part exceedingly stupid. Not to mention Bail Organa's part to Lord Tion (reference: A New Hope radio dramatization). And then there's the Another Chance. I dunno, where does it say that they're militarily a match for any other core world? (As opposed to being considered more cultured or having better support for the arts or whatever else they do with the lack of gigantic defense budget.) [/i]

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-02-17 03:02am

No Weapons? The blatant mothballing of their weapons on a convoy for future use doesn't invalidate this at all? Clearly it would have been incredibly difficult to auto-pilot Another Chance into an uninhabited star, or just dismantle the damned ship and its cargo, so sending it out into interstelar space where it was eventually recovered by the Rebel Alliance was the only way to remove the weapons from Alderaan.

Alderaan was an object lesson to the people of the galaxy, saying "If you let your leaders act against us, you will all suffer". Overkill? Sure, but its the equivalent of shooting 250 American's as a deterent to the rest of the population of the U.S.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 03:04am

You don't talk percentages with human (well, there were Caamasi on Alderaan, so lets say sentient) lives. Well, actually given your custom title you might.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-02-17 03:20am

If you accept that each human life is basically priceless, then 1 death is the same as a hundred thousand or a million. In that case, as soon as you cross the line, there is no going back, and no redemption. This is pretty much utterly impractical for anything resembling a governing body, as it is always going to be necessary to sacrifice individuals on the altar of expediency.

If you believe that the value of human life is quantifiable, then by definition, the happiness and continued existence of .0001% at best of your population is a small price to pay for the stability of the remainder. This is the basic premise that every governing body in history has chosen to operate by, to varying extents.

As a side note, the destruction of Alderaan probably didn't noticeably impact the galaxy wide death rate for that day.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 03:34am

"It was as if a million voices suddenly cried out in terror... And were suddenly silenced." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi. You were saying?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-02-17 03:48am

I said daily statistics, not how many people died in that 10th of a second. In that tenth of a second, the death rate spiked by a factor of at most, 36000ish.
The fact that you say the quantity of deaths matters invalidates your basic argument, as clearly the well-being of a vastly larger population would matter more.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-17 03:50am

Rogue 9 wrote:"It was as if a million voices suddenly cried out in terror... And were suddenly silenced." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi. You were saying?

That's the dumbest counter I've ever heard.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 03:54am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:"It was as if a million voices suddenly cried out in terror... And were suddenly silenced." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi. You were saying?
That's the dumbest counter I've ever heard.

You obviously haven't seen very many counters. I can dig through the archives and remind you of some doozy Trek ones.

Heck, no need for the archives, I daresay Stewart at SDI's are far worse.

If that many deaths were really insignificant against the backdrop of death in the galaxy, Obi-Wan would not have felt it so strongly.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-17 03:56am

It was because they all happened at the same time and place.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-17 12:26pm

Shogoki wrote:No, they just let local wars between planets run rampant, wondering if it would be profitable to stop them, and then they wondered if they should stop the Vong, much the same way someone doesn't wonder if he should use the gun in one's hand on the lion currently mauling one's throat because the bullets were expensive. Of course, as long as the citizens were the ones being slaughtered and not them, it was not so bad.

Actually, the military arm was very much trying to stop local wars between planets and AFAIK, did not consider the "profitability" of it. If you were referring to the incident in Spectre of the Past, you should note that the NRDF had their hands legally tied until they figured out a way to spook the agressor force.

As for the NR senators being idiots against the Vong, that has been long conceded but does not reflect on the 'Old Guard' core that remained from the Rebellion -- people who generally saw the danger for what it was worth.

And the Death Star was only to be used against rebel planets, so it would not have been used had it not been for the Rebels, in the first place, since they where the only faction actually troubling the empire on such a scale.

AFAIK, the Death Star was a product of the Tarkin Doctrine and would have been constructed anyways even if not for the Rebel Alliance. It certainly may have been used if a rebellion did break out to set an example.

I'm not saying i sympathize with the Empire, but the RA are not saints, either, if the rebels had been destroyed there would probably have been peace until they Vong came around, and they would have been promptly vaped.

Who said the Rebellion were saints? No-one here is seriously arguing that.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-17 12:32pm

Shogoki wrote:And I’m sure the RA just went: "Hey, Galactic Empire defeated here, who calls shotgun to rule the galaxy?”.
I meant the people that rule the NR are the same ones that sponsored the RA or managed it at a very high level; they didn't just get hired for the job.

Ah, I misunderstood your original post. I thought you meant the NR was funding the RA, not that the leaders of the NR were the ones who originally funded the RA.

Sure, guys from all over the outer rim just decided to hate the empire, even though it had little presence around there, and didn't realize or care about the mostly good quality of life of the people in the core planets, maybe not brainwashed, but there's some heavy anti-empire propaganda.

Yes, there is propaganda, did you expect otherwise? But the Rebellion is unlikely to be able to launch such a huge campaign as you imply and get away with it.

I don't think they put down the money required to buy all that equipment either.

Bel Iblis built his fleet more or less from scratch, if you recall. Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with my point that they didn't appear to be in it for power.

You have to be very naive to believe that setting up a half-assed imitation of a galaxy wide regime that has just recently fallen apart is going to work; except for the elite who rules the place, which is exactly what happened.

OTOH, she was a senator with considerable experience and her adoptive father also knew the failings of the Old Republic; surely Leia would have known this when they attempted to structure the New Republic.

Well, i kindda give you this one, still, the RA's stunt caused more death and blood shed than the Empire did while it was at peace, both during the war, and after they won it, with their stupid aristocratic beaurocracy and lack of ability to make the most simple decisions.

Yes, it caused an enormous amount of bloodshed. So did the American Civil War, and the American Revolutionary War wasn't bloodless either.