Why make the DS2 so big?

[McC]

Vader does mention the "reports of the Rebel fleet assembling near Sullust" which perhaps was a diversion (or true, depending on how big you think the Alliance was I suppose).

Who's to say this isn't exactly what we see in ROTJ? If you follow the X-wing games, then the Rebel fleet does amass near Sullust before jumping to Endor. I see no reason to invent a phantom fleet of Rebel ships in this instance. The Rebel fleet simply was assembling near Sullust in order to launch their strike on Endor.

Mon Mothma said that the Empire was searching the galaxy "in a vain effort to engage us." So that must mean the Empire was spread out, the entire fleet wasn't there to protect the station.

Well, duh 30ish Star Destroyers does not an Imperial fleet make.

[dworkin]

Palpatine strikes me as a major oppotunist with the classic melodramatic villian weaknesses. As such he takes cosmically big risks. He has to build superweapons, gloat and cackle maniacly.

For example in EpI he gets the Trade Federation to attack his home. Not some random planet, his one! He also manages to improvise on the fly when the Queen turns up alive.

In EpII he allows the top master jedi into his presence! Even if his 'Sithyness' is masked from the jedi they still have their normal brains to work with. This is mainly (IMO) so he can get in some really good gloating when he betrays them all. And it seemed like rapping with Yoda and Mace was something he did on a regular basis since it was a relaxed, informal meeting.
He gets Count Dooku to secure the super weapon plans not because he foresaw things but because 'it may come in handy'. Of course as a super-villian he was naturally attracted to the thing.

In IV he's obviously had the thing made and it gets destroyed. He then presumably goes to his engineers and asks them if they could of made a bigger one. Bigger is always better to these guys.

Palpy "Could you and your men make a bigger Death Star?"
The engineer's confer a bit and come back with an answer.
Chief Engineer "Imperial Majesty, we could build one with a diameter of (450 km)."
Palpy "How about a (900 km) diameter?"
After a brief huddle the Chief responds
CE "It, could be done your majesty. The entire apparatus would be operational in about the same time but the full superstructure proper would take much longer. It, it would look unfinished, your majesty."

Palpatine then hatches his master plan to lure in all the rebels who matter with an 'uncompleted DS that's he's overseeing' plan. It certainly doesn't take a force user to realise they'll send their top people to do the job. This means Luke, Leia, Ackbar, etc. But he also needs a reason to lure Luke into a scenario where he won't be buzzing about in a starfighter or standing on a bridge. Which is why he orders the shield generator to be built on some planet or moon. He knows that the rebels will send Luke and Co. to blow it up because that's what heroes do. He'll capture and either kill/turn Luke, get in some truly excessive gloating and blow shit up. It's very risky, but that's just the sort of guy he is.

Palpatine "Excellent, build the big one."
Chief "Yes sire.", the engineers leave.

[The Kernel]

Ghost Rider, since we seem to be getting nowhere with the back and forth, how about I summerize my argument and we can go from there?

My Claim: The Death Star 2 was a wasteful project since it provided no long-term benefits to the Empire since they weren't at war with an external threat and its short-term purpose as lure for the Rebels could have been accomplished far cheaper and easier then with a 600 km battlestation. Heck, an exact copy of the first one would have worked.

Do you really dispute this claim? Do you think that it was really neccessary to build such a massive planetoid for the purpose of luring a few dozen inferior ships to an ambush?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Kurgan's fucking with continuity--the Rebel fleet which amasses at Sullust is the same that assaults Endor, and accounts for virtually the entire Rebel Alliance's naval resources.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Personally, i still think the DS2 was merely Palpy overcompensating forhis own...*ahem* short come-ings (wink wink )

No one would build a moon sized ship to lure anyone anywhere for any concievable reason, and to say that anyone would is illogical. And with no thraet powerful enough to counter the Imperial navy, which has small destroyers that arnt even verey impressive compared to the SSDs and yet could obliterate whole worlds easily, the whole idea of building such a thing is in and of itself silly.

Instead of the Death Star they should cal it Palpy's folly.

[Ghost Rider]

Ghost Rider, since we seem to be getting nowhere with the back and forth, how about I summerize my argument and we can go from there?

My Claim: The Death Star 2 was a wasteful project since it provided no long-term benefits to the Empire since they weren't at war with an external threat and its short-term purpose as lure for the Rebels could have been accomplished far cheaper and easier then with a 600 km battlestation. Heck, an exact copy of the first one would have worked.

Do you really dispute this claim? Do you think that it was really neccessary to build such a massive planetoid for the purpose of luring a few dozen inferior ships to an ambush?

My dispute is that it needed to be more so to draw the Rebels in and to prevent the original's flaw as well as serve if need be a much more powerful battlestation.

First, it was meant to draw the needed people into an area to be killed, since Vader's failure the Emperor realized Luke was not nearly as suceptible and it was going to take more to turn him. Thus that said threat had to be big.

An smaller Death Star would've served if not for the factor he wanted something to symbolize his might. Losing the DS1 was a slap the Emperor never accepted thus building a larger, grander DS2 was his ego slacking...but it also served a tactical purpose in that it was a more viable weapon and was better in every respect. No weak points when completed goes a long way to it's viability should it survive.

Second, it was meant to draw every powerful insurgent into a single area where in he could destroy them, swiftly without drawing out the Civil War longer then he saw needed.

Literally it would have served it's purpose, and is something that has a viable future use if needed afterwards.

[Kurgan]

Kurgan's fucking with continuity--the Rebel fleet which amasses at Sullust is the same that assaults Endor, and accounts for virtually the entire Rebel Alliance's naval resources.

I interpreted it as a diversion since we've never told it's Sullust (wherever it is they're jumping from) in the film (maybe in the novelisation? been awhile) and because Palpy's next line is "it is of no concern" as if he knows it's just a ruse.

I stand fucking corrected then. ; )

[Sarevok]

Personally, i still think the DS2 was merely Palpy overcompensating forhis own...*ahem* short come-ings (wink wink )

No one would build a moon sized ship to lure anyone anywhere for any concievable reason, and to say that anyone would is illogical. And with no thraet powerful enough to counter the Imperial navy, which has small destroyers that arnt even verey impressive compared to the SSDs and yet could obliterate whole worlds easily, the whole idea of building such a thing is in and of itself silly.

Instead of the Death Star they should cal it Palpy's folly.

There were some valid reasons for building the death star. The Death Star is theoriticaly invincible and could destroy shielded planets instantly instead of requiring week long bombardmen by entire fleets.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Personally, i still think the DS2 was merely Palpy overcompensating forhis own...*ahem* short come-ings (wink wink )

No one would build a moon sized ship to lure anyone anywhere for any concievable reason, and to say that anyone would is illogical. And with no thraet powerful enough to counter the Imperial navy, which has small destroyers that arnt even verey impressive compared to the SSDs and yet could obliterate whole worlds easily, the whole idea of building such a thing is in and of itself silly.

Instead of the Death Star they should cal it Palpy's folly.

There were some valid reasons for building the death star. The Death Star is theoriticaly invincible and could destroy shielded planets instantly instead of requiring week long bombardmen by entire fleets.

And so what? There are, what, millions...tens of millions of ships in the Imperial Navy? Lets say it takes fifty thousand ships, they'd still have hundreds of thousands of ships maybe millions elsewhere. I know it seems to make sense, but upon closer inspection, if i were Emperor i'd just have superlasers put on SSDs...oh wait, they did, yes the Elcipse and Sovereign classes. C'mon, Palpu wasnt a genius, he was an idiot who watsed vast resources building something that could've been scaled down to fit much less expensive vessels.

And even if, the Death Star was demonstrably not invincible, nor was the other penis substitute, er...i mean battlestation. In fact they were destroyed very easily by mere fighters, and a raggedy freighter. No SSD or ISD has ever been destroyed by mere fighters that i know of, which only shows that normal warships are far superior to these crackpot 'superweapons' Palpy seemed obsessed with.

It's like Hiter at the end of WWII, he just wouldnt let the 'Vengence Weapon' thing die when it was proven that his ideas and those of his fellows were insane and perverted by racism. Same thing, different megalomaniac, one common thread: the only time either saw a hard on was when he was in a gym shower. HA! HA! I'm priceless!

[Galvatron]

There were some valid reasons for building the death star. The Death Star is theoriticaly invincible and could destroy shielded planets instantly instead of requiring week long bombardmen by entire fleets.

And so what? There are, what, millions...tens of millions of ships in the Imperial Navy? Lets say it takes fifty thousand ships, they'd still have hundreds of thousands of ships maybe millions elsewhere. I know it seems to make sense, but upon closer inspection, if i were Emperor i'd just have superlasers put on SSDs...oh wait, they did, yes the Elcipse and Sovereign classes. C'mon, Palpu wasnt a genius, he was an idiot who watsed vast resources building something that could've been scaled down to fit much less expensive vessels.

From ANH...

General Tagge: "Until this battlestation is fully operational, we are vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize."
General Motti: "Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battlestation."

TESB made it pretty clear that planetary defenses could not only withstand orbital bombardments, but also allow the defenders to retaliate with surface-based artillery.

[18-Till-I-Die]

General Tagge: "Until this battlestation is fully operational, we are vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize."
General Motti: "Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battlestation."

TESB made it pretty clear that planetary defenses could not only withstand orbital bombardments, but also allow the defenders to retaliate with surface-based artillery.

So what's your point? So they loose some ships, so what? They're the EMPIRE for the love of God, i cant think of anyone with more ships, with the exception of Lensman or the Culture.

Lets say they have about a million ships (this is a bare minimum of corse), and they loose fifty thousand. So what? They obviously have the resources and manpower to build a thousand times that number! Or thywould if the Emperor wasnt such a moron he poured resources and manpower into building sustitutes for his own sagging phallus...

Face it, Galvatron, his shortcomings were stunting the growth of the virgin Empire.

HA, HA, HAAA! Oh...oh, i'm just too priceless! I'm a riot!

[Ghost Rider]

General Tagge: "Until this battlestation is fully operational, we are vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize."
General Motti: "Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battlestation."

TESB made it pretty clear that planetary defenses could not only withstand orbital bombardments, but also allow the defenders to retaliate with surface-based artillery.

So what's your point? So they loose some ships, so what? They're the EMPIRE for the love of God, i cant think of anyone with more ships, with the exception of Lensman or the Culture.

Lets say they have about a million ships (this is a bare minimum of corse), and they loose fifty thousand. So what? They obviously have the resources and manpower to build a thousand times that number! Or thywould if the Emperor wasnt such a moron he poured resources and manpower into building sustitutes for his own sagging phallus...

Face it, Galvatron, his shortcomings were stunting the growth of the virgin Empire.

HA, HA, HAAA! Oh...oh, i'm just too priceless! I'm a riot!

No aside from being an idiot, if they can resist a planetary bombardment, they can either retreat with minimal losses or make it so that opertaion would not be worth the effort or do have any idea of cost of why military operations have for planning or how an EMPIRE is maintained.

So stop making pointless handwaving and provide evidence to prove him wrong.

[18-Till-I-Die]

No aside from being an idiot, if they can resist a planetary bombardment, they can either retreat with minimal losses or make it so that opertaion would not be worth the effort or do have any idea of cost of why military operations have for planning or how an EMPIRE is maintained.

So stop making pointless handwaving and provide evidence to prove him wrong.

I'm sorry, i just couldnt help myself .

Ok, proof, coming up. Four facts that make the Death Star nothing but a useless peice of junk.

Fact: the Eclipse and Sovereign classes of SSDs could be equipped with superlasers and not a single one was ever lost to fighters that i know of, only because of the Glaxy Gun and the fall of the Empire. Proving they are better in every way to the Death Star and less expensive.

Fact: buiding numerous superlaser equipped SSDs was less expensive than the Death Star, and ISDs were far less expensive. With the resources required to build one Death Star, let alone two and let alone two of varying sizes, you could build and equip and man countless millions of Star Destroyers, and god knows how many SSDs and World Devastators, which were the only effective thing to ever come ou of the Emperor's flawed superweapon program, by the way. With that kind of firepower a sheilded planet is irrelivent.

Fact: no ISD or SSD was ever destroyed by anything less than another ship or an ambush, thus proving they are better defended than the Death Star, which was destroyed by fighters and one was taken out by a low-grade smuggler's ship.

Fact: shields cant stay up forever because of the energy restraints. You need only wait until they come down, and then blitzkreig the planet. At best, you'd loose a few dropships and maybe a Destroyer or two but you'd get the job done, at worst you loose the landing force and have to come back latter. Quadrillion of beinsg exist in the Empire, manpower is only a problem if you make it one, like you try to build a 900km battefortress when the whole idea is moot (see below).

Now, i dont know if this is a fact, but it is implied that only a few worlds have the money to maintain a shield, and thus they are rare. I havent put it under facts becuase i may be incorrect.

Finally...

Correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think that any shileded Rebel base was ever seen other than the one at Hoth which was shown to be easily taken by conventional ground forces. Sinec the only competition against the Emperor was the Rebel Alliance, and i dont think (i may be wrong) they had many shields other than local ground shields, the whole idea of a shield busting superlaser is moot. Most worlds can be taken by AT-ATs, Stormtroopers, and repulsortanks, or if sheilded they can be taken by continued bombardment, all of which is cheeper than a Death Star of any size.

[Ghost Rider]

I'm sorry, i just couldnt help myself .

Ok, proof, coming up. Four facts that make the Death Star nothing but a useless peice of junk.

Fact: the Eclipse and Sovereign classes of SSDs could be equipped with superlasers and not a single one was ever lost to fighters that i know of, only because of the Glaxy Gun and the fall of the Empire. Proving they are better in every way to the Death Star and less expensive.

I see...ESD are able to destroy planets?

No?

Guess they aren't better in the same role.

Fact: buiding numerous superlaser equipped SSDs was less expensive than the Death Star, and ISDs were far less expensive. With the resources required to build one Death Star, let alone two and let alone two of varying sizes, you could build and equip and man countless millions of Star Destroyers, and god knows how many SSDs and World Devastators, which were the only effective thing to ever come ou of the Emperor's flawed superweapon program, by the way. With that kind of firepower a sheilded planet is irrelivent.

And where would you find the men to man these countless ISDs?

Using future weaponry to prove prior weaponry is obsolete is circular logic.

I may as well claim the Acclaminators are pointless and useless because not more then 10 years later they can construct ISDs.

Fact: no ISD or SSD was ever destroyed by anything less than another ship or an ambush, thus proving they are better defended than the Death Star, which was destroyed by fighters and one was taken out by a low-grade smuggler's ship.

Piss poor slippery slope given the circumstances required in both events.

Or do you have a different view that it took a Force user getting a lucky shot to destroy the DS1 which they rebels found as the only viable possiblity.

And the second was incomplete thus had access ways to the core.

Fact: shields cant stay up forever because of the energy restraints. You need only wait until they come down, and then blitzkreig the planet. At best, you'd loose a few dropships and maybe a Destroyer or two but you'd get the job done, at worst you loose the landing force and have to come back latter. Quadrillion of beinsg exist in the Empire, manpower is only a problem if you make it one, like you try to build a 900km battefortress when the whole idea is moot (see below). Now, i dont know if this is a fact, but it is implied that only a few worlds have the money to maintain a shield, and thus they are rare. I havent put it under facts becuase i may be incorrect.

You use supposition but no proof to explain why would the Empire ever even concieve of the Superlaser and just send wave after wave of their own men till a shielded planet goes down.

And you still ignore what the Empire had to do.

If one planet goes amok and decides to hold itself in...sending an ISD against a shielded planet would not work...sending a sector group would, but a complete waste of resources and manpower. The Death Star satisifies the Tarkin doctrine but also serves as a point that you only need one vessel to enter and destroy a planet shielded or otherwise.

Especially in light of ESB where a theatre shield prevent on some level of bombardment of Hoth. This wasn't even begun to be the level of power that the Alderaan shield withstood for a fraction of a second.

And given a pack of rag-tag rebels could acquire a shield that could effectively halt a bombardment of no less then 10 ISDs and a SSD..you're telling me their rare somehow?

Finally...

Correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think that any shileded Rebel base was ever seen other than the one at Hoth which was shown to be easily taken by conventional ground forces. Sinec the only competition against the Emperor was the Rebel Alliance, and i dont think (i may be wrong) they had many shields other than local ground shields, the whole idea of a shield busting superlaser is moot. Most worlds can be taken by AT-ATs, Stormtroopers, and repulsortanks, or if sheilded they can be taken by continued bombardment, all of which is cheeper than a Death Star of any size.

Shield busting laser was the point against systems such as Alderaan wherein it was shown that it would take ISD many hours to bust through something of that strength.

The point of said weapon was not just against the Alliance but against anyone.

Also how are they to land on shielded planet...the one in ESB only had a shield that encompassed a specific area.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well i think you're misinterpeting some of my statements but i will sumarize. A handfull of less powerful superlasers is simply less expensive and more tactically attainable than one huge one that is so freakin' prophibitive it doesnt even make senses.

More over the number of sector groups that can be built for the cost of one Death Star is mind boggling...at least a shitload, which i presume is a hair more than a metric fuckload. But seriously, even if they could only build half the ships it seems, they coudl easily man them by requiting from the millions of worlds within the Empire. I read on Star Wars Technical Comintaries that there are at least a million wolrds. Hell, the populationof Corascant alone could feed a whole fleet.

Building more ships as opposed to a few big ones is better in the long run, and was demonstrated by the continued defeats of the Empire's superweapons, including both Death Stars.