Question about TIEs

[Howedar]

The Falcon's weapons are not known to be able to flak-burst. For that matter, if memory serves the entire idea of flak-bursting TL's has been discredited. Several novels mention flak weapons, but they do not state they are one and the same. THe other problem is that shields are not necessarily some magical wall, but instead a field with volume. The "flak bolts" would be contact with the outer edge of a shield, enough to disrupt the cohesion of the bolt.

I could be totally off base on that though, I really don't follow the TL nature discussions too closely. I like to keep my eyebrows.

[Darth Wong]

A falcon shot hitting a TIE fighter shield:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/TIE-Shields.jpg

I almost hesitate to ask...but I will anyway.

How does this picture illustrate that the explosion is due to shielding, and not just the flak effect oft depicted in SW? Does the proximity flak effect only occur in the presence of shielding, or can it occur in other instances as well? It's a distinctive property with blasters that I was never sure about.

Two points:

1) The flak-burst effect is highly contentious, and has not been confirmed to exist at all.

2) Watch the sequence. Notice how every single bolt which doesn't come close to a TIE fighter flies off into the distance, with no "flak-bursting" in evidence. If these bolts had a flak-bursting distance, then why do almost all of them fly away without bursting?

If the bolts are "flak-bursting", then it's a mighty fine coincidence that the flak-bursting only just happens to occur when the bolt nearly hits the fighter and comes into the range where you'd expect a shield to be, and never occurs with shots that don't come close to the target.

[airBiscuit]

1) The flak-burst effect is highly contentious, and has not been confirmed to exist at all.

It may be a misnomer to refer to it as flak, even though it seems appropriate, since I am sure that there is nothing equivalent to a shrapnel effect, and probably no harmful blast radius.

Yet, the arena where this effect is most visible, and something that I had observed for a long time, was the battle of Hoth. For instance, the thru-the-cockpit view of Luke's snowspeeder, you could see the AT-AT's cannon bursts popping close alongside the speeder. From what I could tell thus far, the snowspeeders aren't shielded, but might instead have a thin layer of armor.

2) Watch the sequence. Notice how every single bolt which doesn't come close to a TIE fighter flies off into the distance, with no "flak-bursting" in evidence. If these bolts had a flak-bursting distance, then why do almost all of them fly away without bursting?

If the bolts are "flak-bursting", then it's a mighty fine coincidence that the flak-bursting only just happens to occur when the bolt nearly hits the fighter and comes into the range where you'd expect a shield to be, and never occurs with shots that don't come close to the target.

Actually, it very much makes sense to me that it would occur only very close to the fighter, because I don't believe that these bolts can be proximity fused. Also, I don't think that the bursts have any real value as far as the weapon goes (no shrapnel or damaging explosion)...I think it's a side effect of bolt destabilization.

I will grant you that these bursts will, generally, only occur very close to a ship, so if I were to take a stab at conjecture on how this could be, without shields, I would say that a blaster bolt that grazes close to a metallic hull sets up a charge gradient between the bolt and the hull. The free electrons in the blaster bolt plasma rip free of their confinement and arc out from the bolt toward the hull. The resultant stream of electrons destabilizes the confinement matrix (whatever it is), causing the bolt's energy to burst. Kind of like popping a balloon.

A phenomena that might be similar to this is ball lightning. Even though its properties are not fully understood, the reported sightings of ball lightning indicate that after they hover or bounce around for tens of seconds, they suddenly burst in a flash. Sometimes silently, sometimes with a loud pop. Lightning is recognized as a form of plasma, and ball lightning is some sort of natually produced confinement matrix that suspends the plasma for an indefinite period of time. I can't claim that proximity to a charge potential or metallic surface will cause it to pop, though. Still, it brings an interesting comparative picture to mind since some ideas are that blaster bolts are also confined plasma.

[Darth Wong]

Yet, the arena where this effect is most visible, and something that I had observed for a long time, was the battle of Hoth. For instance, the thru-the-cockpit view of Luke's snowspeeder, you could see the AT-AT's cannon bursts popping close alongside the speeder. From what I could tell thus far, the snowspeeders aren't shielded, but might instead have a thin layer of armor.

See the shot when one of the snowspeeders behind Luke is hit. You can see something arcing all over the speeder well after impact, with an effecf similar to that of a shielded ISD being hit by an ion cannon.

Actually, it very much makes sense to me that it would occur only very close to the fighter, because I don't believe that these bolts can be proximity fused. Also, I don't think that the bursts have any real value as far as the weapon goes (no shrapnel or damaging explosion)...I think it's a side effect of bolt destabilization.

I will grant you that these bursts will, generally, only occur very close to a ship, so if I were to take a stab at conjecture on how this could be, without shields, I would say that a blaster bolt that grazes close to a metallic hull sets up a charge gradient between the bolt and the hull. The free electrons in the blaster bolt plasma rip free of their confinement and arc out from the bolt toward the hull. The resultant stream of electrons destabilizes the confinement matrix (whatever it is), causing the bolt's energy to burst. Kind of like popping a balloon.

No such arcing was observed. Moreover, you are assuming a large net-positive charge for the TIE fighter hull, which is absurd; it would be electrically neutral, just like any other metallic object.

A phenomena that might be similar to this is ball lightning. Even though its properties are not fully understood, the reported sightings of ball lightning indicate that after they hover or bounce around for tens of seconds, they suddenly burst in a flash. Sometimes silently, sometimes with a loud pop. Lightning is recognized as a form of plasma, and ball lightning is some sort of natually produced confinement matrix that suspends the plasma for an indefinite period of time. I can't claim that proximity to a charge potential or metallic surface will cause it to pop, though. Still, it brings an interesting comparative picture to mind since some ideas are that blaster bolts are also confined plasma.

Plasma does not self-confine itself, and there is no conceivable mechanism through which it would. It is naturally self-repulsive. As for ball lightning, its mechanism is still somewhat of a mystery but most leading theories point to some kind of atmospheric interaction involving particle suspensions. Plasma by itself will simply not behave that way, as demonstrated in countless experiments, not to mention all electromagnetic theory. In space, no such event will occur.

[airBiscuit]

See the shot when one of the snowspeeders behind Luke is hit. You can see something arcing all over the speeder well after impact, with an effecf similar to that of a shielded ISD being hit by an ion cannon.

Hmmmmm. Sounds like it's worth a look-see.

No such arcing was observed. Moreover, you are assuming a large net-positive charge for the TIE fighter hull, which is absurd; it would be electrically neutral, just like any other metallic object.

I was suggesting that the charge was induced by a grazing or closely-passing bolt, not that the hulls are ionized to begin with. The ionization would be localized and happen only for an instant. If there is some form of confinement field in the blaster bolt (the "galvening" part mentioned in the SW Databank), then a parallel brush by something with conductive properties (not a head-on hit) might cause a sudden large electrostatic potential to be induced which destabilizes the bolt to self destruction.

While it's true that you don't see a blue shot of lightning arcing, maybe that's due to the near instantaneous burst of the blaster bolt close to the hull, removing the electron potential that was there just a brief moment before.

Plasma does not self-confine itself, and there is no conceivable mechanism through which it would. It is naturally self-repulsive.

I was not suggesting that. Something else would have to be formed around it to confine it. This could take many forms.

As for ball lightning, its mechanism is still somewhat of a mystery but most leading theories point to some kind of atmospheric interaction involving particle suspensions. Plasma by itself will simply not behave that way, as demonstrated in countless experiments, not to mention all electromagnetic theory. In space, no such event will occur.

You are correct on those accounts, but I think my point was misunderstood. I am not asserting that this is plasma only. As you say, there are other ingredients worked into the picture. In a naturally occurring case, you'd have atmospheric or soil-derived particle suspensions. In an *artificial* case, you might be able to devise something else, perhaps electromagnetic in nature.

[Darth Wong]

I was suggesting that the charge was induced by a grazing or closely-passing bolt, not that the hulls are ionized to begin with. The ionization would be localized and happen only for an instant.

This assumes that the bolt has net charge and that the magnetic field generated by its movement will create net charge in the TIE fighter hull rather than simply inducing some current flow.

If there is some form of confinement field in the blaster bolt (the "galvening" part mentioned in the SW Databank), then a parallel brush by something with conductive properties (not a head-on hit) might cause a sudden large electrostatic potential to be induced which destabilizes the bolt to self destruction.

Not really.

While it's true that you don't see a blue shot of lightning arcing, maybe that's due to the near instantaneous burst of the blaster bolt close to the hull, removing the electron potential that was there just a brief moment before.

How would that eliminate the need for the arc?

I was not suggesting that. Something else would have to be formed around it to confine it. This could take many forms.

All of which would add more mass.

[Stark]

A bit OT, but whether or not TIEs have shields (and indeed if fighter shields are combat effective at all) is less important to me than the apparently better combat performance of TIEs. Unless Luke or Han is around, TIEs seem to do well, like the bunch in ANH that shot the crap out of Red Squadron. Since the shields don't seem to do much but save you from glancing hits, something the smaller profile of TIEs do anyway, the superior manuevuerability of the fighter and skill of the pilots seems more important. All the EU anti-Imperial noise might have made TIEs cannon fodder in all the crappy games, but doesn't mean the Imperial pilots are *really* committing ritual suicide every time they strap in.