Point Blank Range

[Lord Pounder]

No I am making no leap. I am quoting Thrawn. According to him the loss of Battle Meditation is what lost them the battle. Now if you want to throw that out fine. Then how can we accept his opinion that the battle could have been won by him.

When did he express such an opinion?

In HttE is likened the over use of Battle Medititation as to that of using borg emplanted crew in a battle computer. He claimed that the fleet relied too much on the Emperor's will to drive them. Later in the book Pellaeon check the performance records and it showed at least a 10% jump in every area.

[NeoGoomba]

No, I meant the opinion that Thrawn could have won the battle himself, which I don't recall him making.

[TC Pilot]

I do believe that his first duty would be to FOLLOW ORDERS! His orders would be to use Battle Med so that the Emperor wasnt too distracted while gettings himself a new apprentice.

I'm not surprised. People nowadays don't quite grasp the ridiculously broad range of powers an imperial Grand Admiral has. While they do inevitably answer to the Emperor and Supreme Commander Vader, the Grand Admirals are bestowed with the authority to command the entire Imperial Navy. Every TIE Fighter, Star Destroyer, and pissant crewman is subject to their authority. If they so wished they could have had Pellaeon's head on a silver platter. It's with that kind of authority someone like Zaarin can even convince his fleet to turn on the Emperor.

And, of course, with Declaan fully aware of Palpatine's demise, suddenly he no longer has anyone to answer to. He can do whatever the hell he wanted. Takel and Makati were well within their rights to flee the battle. Certainly Declaan is well within his to rush to the aid of his fallen Imperial Highness.

No I am making no leap. I am quoting Thrawn. According to him the loss of Battle Meditation is what lost them the battle. Now if you want to throw that out fine. Then how can we accept his opinion that the battle could have been won by him.

You're missing a fairly obvious problem: Thrawn was not at Endor, and was preoccupied with mopping up the traitor Zaarin or in the Unknown Regions somewhere. All he would have to go on was the accounts of the surviving Imperials, Pellaeon included.

Now, don't you think our friend Pelly would have an interesting viewpoint on the situation at Endor?

[Batman]

One small problem-Pellaeon didn't know about Battle Meditation until introduced to the concept by Thrawn as an explanation for the abominable performance of the Imperials at Endor. And he remained highly dubious about the idea until he saw the improvements Cbaoth's BM meant for Thrawn's fleet.

[TC Pilot]

Yeah? So? Thrawn had to base his theory off of information he got on the battle, information he would have only gotten from people who fled with Pellaeon or the man himself.

And clearly, Pellaeon would have a strong personal bias to favor of the idea that the Imperial fleet was reduced to a pitiful mass of simpering cadets and plauged by chaos, disorganization, fear, and desperation born from a doomed situation.

[Batman]

Yeah? So? Thrawn had to base his theory off of information he got on the battle, information he would have only gotten from people who fled with Pellaeon or the man himself.

None of which would point to Battle Meditation being the cause on account of them not knowing about it. All that information would show was that the Imps performed abysmally. To conclude that they did so because of BM requires to know it was there to begin with, which Pellaeon didn't.

And clearly, Pellaeon would have a strong personal bias to favor of the idea that the Imperial fleet was reduced to a pitiful mass of simpering cadets and plauged by chaos, disorganization, fear, and desperation born from a doomed situation.

And yet he refuses the notion that they were and indeed is dubious about the very idea until undeniable evidence is presented to him.Pellaeon couldn't blame his failure on extenuating circumstances he didn't know existed, and refused to BELIEVE existed until the evidence was shoved in his face.

[TC Pilot]

None of which would point to Battle Meditation being the cause on account of them not knowing about it. All that information would show was that the Imps performed abysmally. To conclude that they did so because of BM requires to know it was there to begin with, which Pellaeon didn't.

Um...ok, you're correct in that all Thrawn had to go off of was the fact the Imperials performed abysmally....

...and the fact he was a powerful Sith Lord.

Which is what makes it, you know, a hypothesis. He didn't just state fact to Pellaeon. He decided the use and subsequent loss of Battle Meditation was the best explanation for how the Empire's best soldiers could lose so badly. That's how theories work.

And yet he refuses the notion that they were and indeed is dubious about the very idea until undeniable evidence is presented to him.Pellaeon couldn't blame his failure on extenuating circumstances he didn't know existed, and refused to BELIEVE existed until the evidence was shoved in his face.

Which is irrelevant. Thrawn doesn't need to be told Palpatine used battle meditation to hypothesize Palpatine used battle meditation. Obviously.

Even then, what other alternative is there? How else could Thrawn get his information on Endor? From the warlords? Rebels? The Ewoks?

[Lord Pounder]

Thrawn was a grand admiral right? Do was Declaan. Would it be fair to say thet Grand Admirals on occasion got togeather to share strategy.

Also in HttE Thrawn claims he knew a "Great many of the Emperors Secrets" i think it's safe to assume that Thrawn knew about Battle Medditation while such information would have been held back from the rank and file.

[FTeik]

Thrawn should have known about BM since OutboundFlight (where the real C'Baoth used it to great effect).

[TC Pilot]

And where he had virtually zero contact with C'baoth before nearly being strangled to death and nuking Outbound Flight

[Cykeisme]

Good lord, man, are you dense or something?

Pellaeon was ignorant of the existence of mass Force-influence, and when confronted with the concept of it, was resistant to the idea that it had anything to do with fleet performance.

How the hell did you make the leap to Pellaeon jumping at a chance to blame abysmal performance on it?

Are you deliberately hanging on to a completely debunked position?

[TC Pilot]

How the hell did you make the leap to Pellaeon jumping at a chance to blame abysmal performance on it?

I didn't.

And people here think TFN forums are bad...

[Batman]

How the hell did you make the leap to Pellaeon jumping at a chance to blame abysmal performance on it?

I didn't.

Now, don't you think our friend Pelly would have an interesting viewpoint on the situation at Endor? Wink

And clearly, Pellaeon would have a strong personal bias to favor of the idea that the Imperial fleet was reduced to a pitiful mass of simpering cadets and plauged by chaos, disorganization, fear, and desperation born from a doomed situation.

Wether you intended to or not you definitely came across as saying that yes, Pellaeon would have made that jump.

[TC Pilot]

Um...ok, you're correct in that all Thrawn had to go off of was the fact the Imperials performed abysmally....

Which is irrelevant. Thrawn doesn't need to be told Palpatine used battle meditation to hypothesize Palpatine used battle meditation. Obviously.

And clearly, Pellaeon would have a strong personal bias to favor of the idea that the Imperial fleet was reduced to a pitiful mass of simpering cadets and plauged by chaos, disorganization, fear, and desperation born from a doomed situation.

Note the complete lack of anything saying Pellaeon knew about or agreed with the Battle Meditation theory.

It's not my fault you woefully misread and misunderstand what other people write.

[Batman]

Thank you for completely missing the point. Nobody ever argued Thrawn knew about the Battle Meditation because Pellaeon told him so.
Your 'interesting viewpoint' and 'strong personal bias' comments, especially in the context they were made, however look like you think Pellaeon would use battle meditation as an excuse for the abysmal performance. Which he can't do if he doesn't know about it in the first place.

[TC Pilot]

Alright, that's enough of that. Let's just call it even.

[Cykeisme]

Um...ok, you're correct in that all Thrawn had to go off of was the fact the Imperials performed abysmally....

Which is irrelevant. Thrawn doesn't need to be told Palpatine used battle meditation to hypothesize Palpatine used battle meditation. Obviously.

And clearly, Pellaeon would have a strong personal bias to favor of the idea that the Imperial fleet was reduced to a pitiful mass of simpering cadets and plauged by chaos, disorganization, fear, and desperation born from a doomed situation.

Note the complete lack of anything saying Pellaeon knew about or agreed with the Battle Meditation theory.

It's not my fault you woefully misread and misunderstand what other people write.

What the hell? You're trying to say that by ignoring Batman's statements that debunk your garbage, your points are still valid?

Let's just call it even.

[TC Pilot]

Nope. Trying to say he misunderstood me and I misunderstood the misunderstanding.

Understand?

Essentially, no, I never said Pellaeon would jump to accept the Battle Meditation theory. I'm only saying Pellaeon would give a biased account of the battle that would suggest to Thrawn Battle Meditation was the deciding factor in the battle.