Theed powerplant vs lightsabre

[Darth Servo]

Then Maul should have been able to deflect that entire "wall" away with his lightsaber, if it was made up of a simple "laser"

If he'd had a lightsabre big enough, and if he'd wanted to, maybe.

Qui-gon was sitting down meditating within a couple feet of Maul. If Maul's saber could have penetrated the shield, Qui-gon wouldn't be sitting there. If the lightsabers would effortlessly pass through the field, Maul and Qui-gon would have continued the fight through the field. Maul didn't even try to slice out the field generators in the wall suggesting they were protected by the force field.

I see. So does "wall" mean something else to you people in Wales besides a physical barrier?

Wall needn't mean physical barrier. You can have a wall of water - but you can still walkthrough it (Getting wet, of course)

Semantic whore. Thats verbal symbolism. When most intelligent people say "wall" they mean something you can't get through (Like rabid Trekkies' wall of ignorance).

And the forcefields in Trek act this way as well.

OK, if youreally want to insist on it I'll conceed Trek forcefields are identical to the Theed forcefields in TPM. Lightsabres will be useless against Trek force fields (Which also makes them useless against Borg shields, since Seven of Nine used Borg shields to walk through Trek forcefields in raven). Guess MoO was entirely wrong in his post then. Oh well.

Even though Hugh couldn't get through the shield in I, Borg? Even though the E-E shields easily delfected borg shots in First Contact? Nice hasty generalization fallacy you've constructed there Edam.

But they DON"T LOOK THAT DIFFERENT, which stays right in your ballpark, Sparky.

TPM forcefields: are called lasers

Which is simply SW slang and proves jack shit.

act like we know lasers can act.

Bullshit. How could a wall of lasers possibly provide protection from whatever was inside the powerplant (radiation, heat, whatever), especially since those barriers open and close on a predictable pattern.

Furthermore, when the walls openend, the first opening appeared in the middle. If they were lasers, the wall would have dissappeared instantly. The generators rotated a bit when the walls activated and deactivated. If they were lasers, the turning generators would have been pointless.

I've never seen a laser behave in a manner similar to those walls. You just won't admit that you're full of shit, yet again.

[Slartibartfast]

So, according to you, the field is like a weak thin membrane,

No, the field is what it is stated to be. Anything else is your desperate attempts to find a flaw in my claims by re-writing them to something you have an easier time with.

That's funny, you're the only one that sounds desperate. You screw up with your analogies and then claim others are misinterpreting them.

Maul did not try to push his blade all the way through the field - he touched it. Anything else is supposition.

Ok, another concession, he didn't push it "all the way", implies that he pushed somewhat. Photons = no resistance. To push you need resistance, which means that the field is solid.

Fighter craft weapons aren't turbolasers, they are called Blasters or Lasers interchangeably. And turbolasers are also sometimes called lasers for short. Concession accepted.

Weapons that are all based on similar principles - ie, use a laser internally. Give that concession back.[/quote]

"That was no laser blast! Something hit us."

So the Falcom somehow managed to get inside the laser-chamber where it would be vulnerable to laser blasts? I think I'm keeping that concession.

Geez, according to you, maybe the inner workings of the force fields have some kind of LASER to activate them, analogous to some kind of fiber-optic circuitry. That means that the actual rays aren't LASERs, in the same way that blasters aren't LASERs.

Ah, so you argue that the bullets aren't rifled, but that the phaser rifles must have rifled barrels that make the bullet spin. Nitpicky but a concession anyway.

Sorry, I assumed you have the intelligence to think it through properly. If phaser rifle barrels are rifled then it is to make the phaser particles spin in the beam. You can give that concession back as well.[/quote]

I've given up thinking that you have intelligence at all! You like to have a double standard, specially when playing the name game, and that is so dishonest. But I had given up on you having honesty also, so whatever.

The burden of proof is on you to show us that phaser beams spin. Because if you don't provide any, we have to assume by default that the name RIFLE means that they fire bullets through a rifled barrel. That's the nature of the name game.

Oh, so he tapped on it.

Strawman. He touched the field. You can keep changing my claims as much as you want, but all you are doing is ignoring canon. The fields are lasers. Live with it, or prove lasers aren't lasers. That's another concession you need to return to its rightful owner.

Oh, so he touched it.

Check this out:

It's more like someone tapping on a glass window than trying to put their hand through it.

I'm not changing your claims. If the field is not solid, the saber would go thru it, even if only a milimiter (the field wouldn't deform to keep the saber on one side). Prove that when I tap a glass window, my hand goes through it a milimiter or even less.

[Slartibartfast]

OK, if youreally want to insist on it I'll conceed Trek forcefields are identical to the Theed forcefields in TPM.

Thank you, at last we can let this rest.

Don't forget that a force field needs to be at least as strong or stronger than the thing they're trying to stop, which Trek fields aren't.

Also remember that Trek shields are switched on and off several times each second (frequency) allowing certain things to pass. Unfortunately SW fields don't have this "feature". Guess they don't need to fire thru them or use transporters, oh well, their loss.

None of these conditions contradict that the workings are more or less the same, by the way (if SW wanted they could arrange for frequencies in their fields, but that would be just stupid)

[The Dude]

I mean, lets look at it logically - the books are based on the scripts, so the scripts are superior to the books. The films are based on the scripts so the scripts are superior to the film - logically identical, but known to be wrong.

Where did you come up with the notion that the logic was based on what came first?

The scripts and the films are George Lucas' own work. It should be obvious that George Lucas' vision of Star Wars (as represented by his scripts and films) is more authoritative than the interpretations of other parties (Brooks et al)

Additionally, the script is only one degree of separation from the ultimate canon (films), whereas the novelization is two:

novelization <-> script <-> film

I've acknowledged that there is an electron component which need not be deadly. The lasers are deadly. The electrons are a side effect (And that's only if you insist on accepting the subjective description over the objective one. Take the objective one, and the electrons are just the wild thoughts of a Jedi padawan watching his mentor get killed)

Absolute bullshit. The numerous and uniform descriptions of the "electron beams" and "electron field" in the script are written in the omniscient 3rd. You have utterly failed to justify your laughable "Edam=canon" claim that the use of "electron" in the 3rd person in the novel is subjective while all similar references to "laser" are objective.

Furthermore, you have presented no evidence for your claims that:
1) the laser component is deadly,
1a) if 1 is true, that only the laser component is deadly
2) the electrons are a "side effect" (especially since they are the only thing that can give the field the solidity observed in the film)

You're still looking at fan interpretation of canon levels though. I could just as easily write a web page putting the novellisations higher than the scripts, and without an official statement it would be similarly useless.

There is no fan interpretation involved - these levels are those used by Lucasfilm Licensing in resolving continuity conflicts. I suggest you listen to his ChronoRadio SE for more details.

Regardless, you have failed to justify your illogical claim that, even in the absence of some official policy, that we should consider Terry Brooks' work to be equally authoritative to George Lucas'.

Density has virtually nothing to do with it - force does.

The force the block exerts on your head will be dependent on the number of electrons in the area - ie, the density.

Jesus H Fucking Christ rotating on a fork. Here is a little experiment for you - hit your head on a block of ice - next hit your head on liquid water. Which is harder? The ice - and yet it has a lower electron density than liquid water (due to its lower bulk density). What could the explanation possibly be?

Perhaps - the effect of density is insignificant compared to the effect of constraining forces? I sincerely cannot believe that you still don't get it.

BTW, how about proving the electrons in the wall were confined enough to actually exert a large physical force, since that is the obvious conclusion to what your reasoning.

You're not very good at this whole theory-from-observation thing, are you ?

1)Maul tapped the wall with his lightsaber. The wall was rigid (film)
2)The wall consisted of electron beams (script, novel) and possibly laser beams (novel).
3)Neither photons nor unconstrained electrons can generate a solid wall; appropriately constrained electrons will (source:RL science).

Ergo, the wall consisted of electrons constrained to a degree sufficient to present a solid interaction with Maul's lightsaber. It's possible that there is a laser component, but there is no evidence that it is there to do anything more than illuminate the electron wall.

[Lord Edam]

Qui-gon was sitting down meditating within a couple feet of Maul. If Maul's saber could have penetrated the shield, Qui-gon wouldn't be sitting there.
If the lightsabers would effortlessly pass through the field, Maul and Qui-gon would have continued the fight through the field.

Yet again we are back to "we don't know how lightsabres react to the laser field", whic hwas cleared up back on page two of this discusion. I suggest you catch up with the thread Servo.

Maul didn't even try to slice out the field generators in the wall suggesting they were protected by the force field.

You can assume whatever you want, it makes no difference to the statement in canon and official sources that the fields were lasers.

Thats verbal symbolism

When you're describing a surface that cannot be crossed without dying that's exactly what you need.

Even though Hugh couldn't get through the shield in I, Borg?

Yep. Call it advancement.

Even though the E-E shields easily delfected borg shots in First Contact?

eh? When in first contact did we see borg drones try and fail to walk through forcefields? Or are you bringing up something entirely different to draw attention away from the truth?

Which is simply SW slang and proves jack shit.

Dealt with back in the second page of this thread. Please go read, or provide evidence.

Bullshit. How could a wall of lasers possibly provide protection from whatever was inside the powerplant (radiation, heat, whatever),

Don't know, don't care. They are canonically stated to be lasers used to prevent unauthorised access (see quote given earlier).

Furthermore, when the walls openend, the first opening appeared in the middle. If they were lasers, the wall would have dissappeared instantly.

You are repeating what HDS said earlier. Please see my response to him.

[Connor MacLeod]

Has anyone else notice Edam's deliberate evasion at actually proving the lasers were canonically photonic? His entire argument rests on the notion that they AREN'T electrons (even though we have canon sources saying they are) and he simply denies that on the fact that "they say they're lasers!" (from the same source that also gives us a notion they are electrons, no less.) And more important, there is nothing in the movie that is indicated to contradict that they may be electrons. In the absence of contradictory evidence from a higher source, they are electrons, and thus anything Edam says is irrelevant.

[Lord Edam]

Where did you come up with the notion that the logic was based on what came first?

not what came first - what was based on what.

The scripts and the films are George Lucas' own work.

Large portions of the film are done by other people, though GL signs off on the entire final product. But then, GL signs off onthe novellisation as well.

It should be obvious that George Lucas' vision of Star Wars (as represented by his scripts and films) is more authoritative than the interpretations of other parties (Brooks et al)

In the numerous official statements regarding canonicity it would be easy to LFL to include a hierarchy if one existed. So far all I've seen are fan interpretations. Fans giving their idea of how things should be. Which is fine, as long as you admit it is the fan's ideas and not try hiding it behind some lies about "sticking to LFL policy"

if what you say is true, why have Lucasfilm never stated it?

I've acknowledged that there is an electron component which need not be deadly. The lasers are deadly. The electrons are a side effect (And that's only if you insist on accepting the subjective description over the objective one. Take the objective one, and the electrons are just the wild thoughts of a Jedi padawan watching his mentor get killed)

Absolute bullshit. The numerous and uniform descriptions of the "electron beams" and "electron field" in the script are written in the omniscient 3rd.

The same omniscient 3rd giving us the thoughts and emotions of the characters, which are entirely sujective

You have utterly failed to justify your laughable "Edam=canon" claim that the use of "electron" in the 3rd person in the novel is subjective while all similar references to "laser" are objective.

If you check out the novellisation you'll see it's true.

But yet again I repeat - there is no need for this. My explanation is all-inclusive and as such is preferable to any explanation that immediately nullifies many canon and some EU references.

Furthermore, you have presented no evidence for your claims that:
1) the laser component is deadly,

They wouldn't be much use against unauthorised intrusion (see quote provided page 3) if they weren't deadly, and I have already provided reference to several passages that describe the lasers as deadly, but if you insist

He cleared all the gates but the last, and the lasers crisscrossed before him in a deadly wall

1a) if 1 is true, that only the laser component is deadly

The electrons aren't enough to shock Maul. See previous pages for reasoning.

2) the electrons are a "side effect" (especially since they are the only thing that can give the field the solidity observed in the film)

And again with the solidity. That has been dealt with already. For that matter, prove electron rays would

1) - look like those fields
2) - be solid.

There is no fan interpretation involved - these levels are those used by Lucasfilm Licensing in resolving continuity conflicts.

Provide official statements from LFL to demonstrate this.

I suggest you listen to his ChronoRadio SE for more details.

I'm not going to waste my time listening to over 20 cheesy "radio" shows because you are to olazy to do your own homework. If you want to point out which episode a LFL employee gives the official statement you believe exists I'll listen to it.

Regardless, you have failed to justify your illogical claim that, even in the absence of some official policy, that we should consider Terry Brooks' work to be equally authoritative to George Lucas'.

No, deary. YOU've failed to prove YOUR claim that the scripts are of higher value than the novellisation. You've also ignored the several times I've said it needn't be a problem. You are creating a contradiction because you refuse to accept the alternatives.

Perhaps - the effect of density is insignificant compared to the effect of constraining forces? I sincerely cannot believe that you still don't get it.

Actually, I got it a long time ago, I'm just waiting for you to get to the point of it all. Now I realise there is no point.

1)Maul tapped the wall with his lightsaber. The wall was rigid (film)

You assume this. Every page of this discussion shows this need not be the case.

3)Neither photons nor unconstrained electrons can generate a solid wall; appropriately constrained electrons will (source:RL science).

So where's the atoms to constrain the electrons in the wall, or are yo ugoing to invoke yet another unknown to justify your ridiculous assumptions?

Ergo, the wall consisted of electrons constrained to a degree sufficient to present a solid interaction with Maul's lightsaber.

What is constraining the electrons? Why must the interaction Maul's lightsabre had with the fields be generated by a solid (remembering we know next to nothing about LS interaction with such fields)? I've asked this before, but the only reply was along the lines of "it's obvious"

It's possible that there is a laser component, but there is no evidence that it is there to do anything more than illuminate the electron wall.

Please see quote provided on page three. You have read this thread before contributing, haven't you?

[Lord Edam]

Has anyone else notice Edam's deliberate evasion at actually proving the lasers were canonically photonic? His entire argument rests on the notion that they AREN'T electrons (even though we have canon sources saying they are) and he simply denies that on the fact that "they say they're lasers!" (from the same source that also gives us a notion they are electrons, no less.) And more important, there is nothing in the movie that is indicated to contradict that they may be electrons. In the absence of contradictory evidence from a higher source, they are electrons, and thus anything Edam says is irrelevant.

those actually paying attention to the thread will note many posts I have made, most specifically in reply to connor and later quoted by connor, where it is accepted the fields ARE electrons...AND lasers. And this is explained, including other sources.

Here it is again.

The fields are generated by lasers (yes, that's lasers, in the traditional sense, you know, light and all that) as a security measure. Either as an additional measure, or as a side effect of lasers that are powerful enough to be deadly to your average lifeform there are electrons where the laser fields are (that easily includes all canon evidence). But these electrons aren't in enough concentration to be particularly deadly, as they didn't give Maul a shock when he touched them with his lightsabre (we know they should if there's enough of them, from EU sources referenced in the thread opener)


Yet again connor ignores the discussion in order to say in several lines to post what can be summaries in two characters

+1

[Lord Pounder]

Lord Smelly Cheese hasn't gave up yet i see. Maybe if he repeats the same WRONG facts over and over you'll give up or something.

[The Dude]

not what came first - what was based on what

OK. You even lose by the standards of this strawman, since it gives us 1) script > film & 2) script > novelization, with an explicit statement (Cerasi) to override the first, which gives us film > script > novelization.

Large portions of the film are done by other people, though GL signs off on the entire final product. But then, GL signs off onthe novellisation as well.

You must really desperate if you must resort to equating GL's contribution to the films to his contribution to the novelization!

In the numerous official statements regarding canonicity it would be easy to LFL to include a hierarchy if one existed
So far all I've seen are fan interpretations. Fans giving their idea of how things should be. Which is fine, as long as you admit it is the fan's ideas and not try hiding it behind some lies about "sticking to LFL policy"
if what you say is true, why have Lucasfilm never stated it?[/

It is internal LFL policy. I gave you the source.
You didn't investigate. Too bad.

I've acknowledged that there is an electron component which need not be deadly. The lasers are deadly. The electrons are a side effect (And that's only if you insist on accepting the subjective description over the objective one. Take the objective one, and the electrons are just the wild thoughts of a Jedi padawan watching his mentor get killed)

I didn't ask you to restate your wonky opinions as fact - I asked you to back them up with evidence.

The same omniscient 3rd giving us the thoughts and emotions of the characters, which are entirely sujective

You are a fucking idiot. Do you understand the difference between the authority of the thoughts of a character and the narrative voice that describes them?

Hint: start by showing that the description of the electron field is Obi-Wan's thought and not a description by the omniscient narrator (of course you can't, because it isn't).

But yet again I repeat - there is no need for this. My explanation is all-inclusive and as such is preferable to any explanation that immediately nullifies many canon and some EU references.

It is all-inclusive insofar as it includes both the laser component described in the lower canon and EU, and the electron component described in the novelization and script and observed in the film. However, rejecting your flimsy interpretations of what is deadly and what is not, what is a side effect or what is not, or what is objective in the novelization versus what is subjective does not require us to throw out any evidence at all.

In fact, to suggest that both the electron *and* laser components are dangerous would be yet another permutation superior to your own theory.

He cleared all the gates but the last, and the lasers crisscrossed before him in a deadly wall

The wall is deadly - this proves that the lasers are deadly... how?
This is inconsistent with illuminating lasers in a deadly wall of electrons... how?

The electrons aren't enough to shock Maul. See previous pages for reasoning.

Scientific ignorance is not evidence. There is no need for the electrons to kill by shock to be deadly. You claim to get the relationship between the electromagnetic force and mechanical solidity, yet you continue to say things like this.

And again with the solidity. That has been dealt with already.

It has, but by me, not you. I gratefully accept your evasion as a concession.

For that matter, prove electron rays would

1) - look like those fields
2) - be solid.

You claim to get the relationship between the electromagnetic force and mechanical solidity, yet you continue to say things like this.

As to the appearance, prove that lasers alone would look like the fields shown in the film (hint: they wouldn't, as lasers are invisible and we observe no smoke or dust in the scene). Frankly, we know that electron rays look like that (in SW, anyway) because, well, those are electron rays!

Provide official statements from LFL to demonstrate this.
I'm not going to waste my time listening to over 20 cheesy "radio" shows because you are to olazy to do your own homework. If you want to point out which episode a LFL employee gives the official statement you believe exists I'll listen to it.

I told you the exact episode - the SE. As you appear to need your hand held, here's the exact URL: http://www.starwarz.com/timeline/chronoradio/crse1.html.

No, deary. YOU've failed to prove YOUR claim that the scripts are of higher value than the novellisation. You've also ignored the several times I've said it needn't be a problem. You are creating a contradiction because you refuse to accept the alternatives.

Again for the dimwitted: the scripts are superior representations of his vision of the films, because they're HIS FUCKING WORK. They are the blueprint for the ultimate canon - the novelizations are merely an alternate interpretation.

Actually, I got it a long time ago, I'm just waiting for you to get to the point of it all. Now I realise there is no point.

You pretend to get it, and yet you continue to make statements that betray your ignorance.

You assume this. Every page of this discussion shows this need not be the case.

It is observed. Every page of the discussion shows that you do not accept this, but fortunately the films are higher canon that your interpretations thereof.

So where's the atoms to constrain the electrons in the wall, or are yo ugoing to invoke yet another unknown to justify your ridiculous assumptions?

What is constraining the electrons? Why must the interaction Maul's lightsabre had with the fields be generated by a solid (remembering we know next to nothing about LS interaction with such fields)? I've asked this before, but the only reply was along the lines of "it's obvious"

I thought you said you got it, Edam? I suggest you look up "Lorentz Force Law" and "magnetic field".

Please see quote provided on page three. You have read this thread before contributing, haven't you?

Show that "He cleared all the gates but the last, and the lasers crisscrossed before him in a deadly wall" is inconsistent with "It's possible that there is a laser component, but there is no evidence that it is there to do anything more than illuminate the electron wall" and you may be getting somewhere.

[The Dude]

Does anyone have the TPM novelization's description of Maul tapping the Theed forcefield?

[Darth Servo]

Even though Hugh couldn't get through the shield in I, Borg?

Yep. Call it advancement.

Prove they advanced. And no, the occurance of seven of nine earlier is simply circular logic.

Which is simply SW slang and proves jack shit.

Dealt with back in the second page of this thread. Please go read, or provide evidence.

The evidence has been provided again and again and again. You have ignored it every time. Lasers has been PROVEN to be a general slang term in SW.

Bullshit. How could a wall of lasers possibly provide protection from whatever was inside the powerplant (radiation, heat, whatever),

Don't know, don't care. They are canonically stated to be lasers used to prevent unauthorised access (see quote given earlier).

Unauthorised access? ROTFLMAO. The things open and close on a regular basis. THATS IN THE FUCKING FILM. THATS AS HIGH OF CANON AS IT GETS. An effective security field does not open and close long enough for people to run through it.

Furthermore, when the walls openend, the first opening appeared in the middle. If they were lasers, the wall would have dissappeared instantly.

You are repeating what HDS said earlier. Please see my response to him.

I did. It didn't make any fucking sense. Asshole.

[The Dude]

Edam, regarding the canon heirarchy issue, if you wish to continue your creationist bullshit tactic of "if you can't prove your case beyond any doubt, my interpretation (no matter how weak) wins by default", please do it in the Official and Canon thread, where it is at least on-topic.

[The Dude]

I had a chance to take a peek at the TPM DVD and have a few more observations:

- the field ripples radially from the point of contact after Maul taps it
- the fields open and close open quite slowly (i.e. at far less than c)
- small "currents" can be seen running through the fields (mostly horizontally)
- the fields exhibit a faint 'static' effect

[Robert Treder]

Does anyone have the TPM novelization's description of Maul tapping the Theed forcefield?

One after the other, the three antagonists passed through the small door into a corridor beyond. They were moving quickly in their frenzied chase and were into the corridor before they realized what it was. Lasers ricocheted off buffer struts, pulsing in long bursts of crisscrossing brilliance that segmented the corridor at five points. The lasers had just begun to kick in when the Sith Lord and the Jedi Knights rushed through the entry. Darth Maul, in the lead, got farthest down the corridor and found himself trapped between walls four and five. Qui-Gon, in close pusuit, was caught only one wall away. Obi-Wan, who was farthest away in the chase, did not get past even the first wall.
Shocked into immobility by the buzz and flash of the lasers, the antagonists froze where they were, casting about for an escape, finding none. Qui-Gon took a quick measure of their location. They were in the service corridor for the melting pit, the disposal unit of the power station's residue. The service corridor was armed with lasers against unauthorized intrusion. There would be a shutoff switch somewhere at both ends of the passage, but it was too late to look for it now.
The Jedi Knights stared down the laser-riddled corridor at the Sith Lord, who gave them a wicked grin. Don't worry, they could read in his dark countenance, you won't have long to wait for me. Qui-Gon exhcanged a meaningful glance with Obi-Wan, then dropped into a guarded crouch to meditate and wait.

Doesn't describe Maul tapping the field, unfortunately. The later description of it is equally ambiguous.

[The Dude]

Doesn't describe Maul tapping the field, unfortunately. The later description of it is equally ambiguous.

Thanks muchly. BTW, that Fincher quote is great.

[Robert Treder]

No problem, and thanks, respectively. While we're off topic, why is your avatar of The Jesus when your name is The Dude?

[The Dude]

No problem, and thanks, respectively. While we're off topic, why is your avatar of The Jesus when your name is The Dude?

I just love that pic (and that scene is one of my favourites of all time).

[Connor MacLeod]

those actually paying attention to the thread will note many posts I have made, most specifically in reply to connor and later quoted by connor, where it is accepted the fields ARE electrons...AND lasers. And this is explained, including other sources.

You'll note however its never said that the fields actually HAVE photons involved, and how Edam has repeatedly dodged requests that prove it is and merely assumed that it is so. This amounts to the usual dumbass trekkie argument "if its a laser, then its a laser!"

Whereas Wayne and myself have posted evidence that DIRECTLY cites the rays as being electrons. Edam has further provided no proof (none that overrides canon and neither has he proved it is a scientific impossibility) that they are NOT electrons. He simply assumes that they are a minor or irrelevant part of the rays, even in the face of the evidence to the contrary (and ignoring the fact he's NEVER even proved taht they are photon lasers)

The alternate theory is that the "rays" mentioned are only composed of electrons (which is cited in the evidence Wayne and myself provided) and that the visible element is either a tracer to warn people away or possibly a physical shielding/containment element (the colorations appear more or less similar to what we see gungan and naboo shielding exhibit in TPM, so its quite reasonable to assume its a ray shielding/confinment effect.

Comparing the two, Edam's must 1.) prove the photonic element exists, and that it is the lethal component. 2.) must account for the electrons. 4.) explain the glowing effect and 3.) indicate what provides confinement.

The Alternate theory must prove 1.) what creates the glow and 2.) what provides confinement. The composition is proved by the evidence.

Ironically, we find goat-fucker.. err Lord Edam's theory is in fact the more complex of the two, therefore we can dismiss it.

We can also note that Lord Edam has repeatedly engaged in semantics dodges, falsely shifted burden of proof onto others, dodged efforts to provide evidence required to support his position, twisted evidence delibrerately to fit his own ends (the point where he claimed "lasers" energize blaster gasses according to the EGW&T, when it only mentions some kind of power/energy charge.), ignored canon evidence (the "electron" composition quotes provided by Wayne and myself) and even placed EU over canon (where he cites Darth Maul Shadow Hunter as a counter to the "electrons" in the gate.) and attempted to twist the Canon/official hierarchy to suit his ends.

In short, he's not only proven he's incapable of admitting he's wrong even though his theory is both unworkable and unproven, but that he deliberately goes to no ends of dishonesty to make sure people think he's right. Very much the usual situation for Edam.

The fields are generated by lasers (yes, that's lasers, in the traditional sense, you know, light and all that) as a security measure.

You've provided no evidence that there are actually photons involved in that field. Assumption on your part that makes the theory more complex.

Either as an additional measure, or as a side effect of lasers that are powerful enough to be deadly to your average lifeform there are electrons where the laser fields are (that easily includes all canon evidence). But these electrons aren't in enough concentration to be particularly deadly, as they didn't give Maul a shock when he touched them with his lightsabre (we know they should if there's enough of them, from EU sources referenced in the thread opener)

You'll note that you still haven't proven that the lasers are actually photonic. You'll also note that one could also claim the opposite of what Edam claims (that the electrons are the deadly component and the photons are just harmless light - which would coincide with the "laser" reference I posted from the EGW&T - you know, the one you deliberately twisted?) and it remains just as true. Simply put, Edam has not proven that the "lasers" are photonic, or even if we assume ther eis a photonic element, that it is the deadly one.

[Lord Edam]

You'll note however its never said that the fields actually HAVE photons involved,

lasers = light=photons. Claiming lasers do not have photons is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence, that you have been repeatedly asked to supply but still fail to do.

Whereas Wayne and myself have posted evidence that DIRECTLY cites the rays as being electrons.

And I have posted evidence that DIRECTLY cites the rays as being lasers. Evidence which you have ignored in favour of your ridiculous "lasers aren't light" ideas.

And still you refuse to acknowledge EU. You're twisting many canon quotes and ignoring additional evidence. Shadow hunter fits with the descriptions of the fields being lasers and electrons. There is no need to ignore shadow hunter, there is no need to place shadowhunter above canon. It all fits by taking everything at face value.


Your entire response relies on "you haven't proven the lasers are photonic" - Idon't need to. Lasers = light = photons. Everything else fits.

YHBT.

End of discussion

[Lord Edam]

Prove they advanced. And no, the occurance of seven of nine earlier is simply circular logic.

WE know sevenof nine could pass through forcefields by activating her drone shields. you say Hugh couldn't. So, either the Borg advanced, or Hugh could but chose ot to.

The evidence has been provided again and again and again. You have ignored it every time. Lasers has been PROVEN to be a general slang term in SW.

The only evidence provided has been weapons that use lasers to activate a gas. That doesn't make lasers a slang term. That doesn't prevent these lasers being lasers. It doesn't prevent the fields being lasers and electrons, using the explanation I've already given that includes Shadow Hunter (unlike any other explanation provided in this thread)

Unauthorised access? ROTFLMAO. The things open and close on a regular basis. THATS IN THE FUCKING FILM. THATS AS HIGH OF CANON AS IT GETS. An effective security field does not open and close long enough for people to run through it.

By combining all sources we can say they are there to prevent unauthorised access when there are dangerous energies in the inner room - at those times they wouldprobably always be on. Clearly this wasn't one of those times.

I did. It didn't make any fucking sense. Asshole.

respond to the parts you don't understand.

[Connor MacLeod]

lasers = light=photons. Claiming lasers do not have photons is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence, that you have been repeatedly asked to supply but still fail to do.

I did. In the SW universe lasers have been proven to not be just the "Light amplification by stimulation of emitted radiation" kind. You've decided to have selective amnesia about this. OR did you forget we were talking about Star Wars?

Or are you really starting to think that everytime someone mentions "laseR" they mean a photonic one?

Again, you've not provided any CANON proof that they are photonic. your meaningless semantics-whore BS does not count as canon proof.

And by teh way, ever heard of an Atom laser? That alone proves "laser" does not automatically mean photonic, even if we assume that somehow the fact that "lasers" in SW have been proven to be more than just the photonic kind.

http://www.nature.com/nsu/010719/010719-5.html

http://cua.mit.edu/ketterle_group/Proje ... _comm.html

<and no, I am not saying that the Theed gate is an atom laser. That is simply an example of why you cannot make your dumbass assumption that laser = photonic laser. I would have thought htat with any rational person, simply citing the fact that SW has canonically and officially demonstrated many different kinds of weapons and devices that use the term "laser" would prove this. You obviously do not fall into that category.>

Again provide canon proof (and not your "opinion" of what they meant by laser) that the lasers ARE photonic,

And I have posted evidence that DIRECTLY cites the rays as being lasers. Evidence which you have ignored in favour of your ridiculous "lasers aren't light" ideas.

So you're claiming Wayne and I are delibereately falsifying what the scripts and novel say? Care to prove that allegation?

OH yes, and cite your evidence that they are photonic lasers (IE that the movie or novel or script actually say they are photonic, or that the visuasl actually give a clear indication they are photonic.) - Your dumbass interpretation of the term "laser" does not qualify.

And still you refuse to acknowledge EU. You're twisting many canon quotes and ignoring additional evidence. Shadow hunter fits with the descriptions of the fields being lasers and electrons. There is no need to ignore shadow hunter, there is no need to place shadowhunter above canon. It all fits by taking everything at face value.

If by "Face value" you mean "misrepresenting evidence and engaging in a tremendous volume of debating dishonesty.", then yes, you probably have been taking things at "face value." (However, to the rest of the rational world, you're simply a lying fuckwit bastard who can't ever admit when he's wrong, even when the truth is being savagely beaten into that neutronium-thick skull of his.)

Your entire response relies on "you haven't proven the lasers are photonic" - Idon't need to. Lasers = light = photons. Everything else fits.

The famous "Edam's opinions override Lucasfilm policy" argument. didnt you try using that against Mike in your debate?

Basically, Edam doesnt feel he NEEDS to actually use any real proof to justify his position. Thats how confident (read: deluded) he actually is.

YHBT.

End of discussion

So this means you've finally realized that massive pile of bullshit you're sitting on iisn't an actual argument and have deceided to concede? Good.

Concession Accepted dumbass.

[Connor MacLeod]

The only evidence provided has been weapons that use lasers to activate a gas. That doesn't make lasers a slang term. That doesn't prevent these lasers being lasers. It doesn't prevent the fields being lasers and electrons, using the explanation I've already given that includes Shadow Hunter (unlike any other explanation provided in this thread)

Note to everyone: Yet again we see Edam is quite blatantly lying, but refuses to actually admit it.

The quote in question he keeps harping on:

EGW&T page 80:

"The laser actuator combines high energy blaster gas with a large power charge. (The Actuator's prismatic crystal produces the high energy beam of charged particles coupled with light.)"

Point out to me just where the hell in that quote it says that the "large power charge" is a laser. The weapon itself is called a laser cannon (which any rational person - Edam obviously is excluded from this - would realize that the weapon we're talking about is called a "LASER CANNON" - one that supposedly uses charged particles.)

And just so Edam doesn't fixate on that "light" part to sustain the masturbatory fantasy that he thinks is him winning this debate:

"The bolt's visible light is a harmless by-product of this reaction." - EGW&T page 4

As stated before, Edam's entire argument is based upon an unproven and entirely subjective assumption that LASER = photonic laser for which he has provided NO canon proof for (although he's under the deluded belief that simply citing the fact its CALLED a laser is sufficient for his purposes. Obviously the burden of proof in Edam-land is very flexible and minimal. Thankfully, we're dealing in teh real world, even if he isn't.) An assumptoin that has been directly proven wrong by both canon and EU, but he obviously refuses to accept or admit.r

If this keeps up I say we nominate Edam for Village Idiot.

[Slartibartfast]

A better title would be "Villiage Idiot^2" or "Village Idiot++"

Hm... "Village Idiot: The Next Degradation".

[Lord Pounder]

Lord Smelly Cheese certainly deserves some kinda title saying as how he seems to have an immunity to reason and logic.

The common "OK i'll ignore your facts and nitpick instead" tatics used by Lord Smelly Cheese are annoying after a while.