Holy $#!+: they fixed the saber clash (ROTJ Blu-Ray)

[Batman]

The (former?) Krayt Dragon cry sounds really weird and unnatural. But isn't the Krayt Dragon cry an EU invention?

Nope. The sound being the Krayt Dragon cry goes all the way back to the ANH novelization.

[Guardsman Bass]

I just watched both clips. The new "Krayt dragon" cry sounds weird, but I actually really like the double "Noooo!" from Vader.

[Anguirus]

At this point in my life, I just don't care about minor little edits like this. And I'm still in my twenties.

Believe it or not, this is only the third change that has bothered me.

First: 1997 Greedo. No explanation needed I trust. 2004 tweaked this but did not improve it.

Second: 1997 Luke's scream when he falls. They actually reverted this in 2004, hooray!

Third: 2011. This change. It matters more, and is worse, than all changes before it. Reason?

Well, while much more extensive changes were made elsewhere, all were tweaking or adding minor flavor scenes, that were simply "coloring" the world of the films or adding a bit of exposition. The 1997 Luke Scream was the only offender that changed the meaning of a classic scene of conflict between Luke and Vader. It did so in a relatively minor way, but "Luke coming unglued and suddenly sounding like the goddamn Emperor" is less awesome than "Luke's calm acceptance." Plus the latter actually jives with his facial expression. But whatever.

Now, we have Lucas working on the scene that is inarguably the climax of the saga; three movies or six movies, this is fucking it. Nobody ever bitched about this scene, even though it's in a movie that's been justly ripped on a little. So Lucas & crew takes this scene, a classic of modern sci-fi film, and ADDS LOOPING TO IT. You don't take one of your best, most carefully composed scenes of all time and add looped dialogue to it 30 years later. They could cram in "No," they could cram in "This is CNN" to those thirty seconds, doesn't matter, they are both equally ridiculous.

The best part of that scene is that you don't quite know what Vader's going to do until the INSTANT he moves. The camera somehow manages to put you inside Vader's head for the first time in all three movie, and it does so in a completely unconventional manner--you still don't see his eyes, you don't hear his voice or an inner monologue, you just understand his divided loyalties for a moment.

What this tells me is that in thirty years, Lucas (who as many of us know ghost-directed Jedi) went from a filmmaker who understands subtlety and understatement to one who considers them sins that must be expunged from his previous work.

He also lost the concept of irony, if he ever had it: http://www.toplessrobot.com/2011/09/198 ... ge_luc.php

[Stark]

I checked around and nobody I know has watched the SW movies in 3 years; the average is 5 years for the original movies. Do people who planned on buying these BDs even plan on watching it? Once? Using it for screencaps?

[Jim Raynor]

Now, we have Lucas working on the scene that is inarguably the climax of the saga; three movies or six movies, this is fucking it. Nobody ever bitched about this scene, even though it's in a movie that's been justly ripped on a little. So Lucas & crew takes this scene, a classic of modern sci-fi film, and ADDS LOOPING TO IT. You don't take one of your best, most carefully composed scenes of all time and add looped dialogue to it 30 years later. They could cram in "No," they could cram in "This is CNN" to those thirty seconds, doesn't matter, they are both equally ridiculous.

So what are you even saying here? He changed it so it's bad?

The best part of that scene is that you don't quite know what Vader's going to do until the INSTANT he moves. The camera somehow manages to put you inside Vader's head for the first time in all three movie, and it does so in a completely unconventional manner--you still don't see his eyes, you don't hear his voice or an inner monologue, you just understand his divided loyalties for a moment.

It's the end of the movie, and the camera clearly zooms in on Vader's face as a tortured Luke pleads for his help. It's pretty clear that he doesn't like what he sees, and that it's affecting him. This, after all that set up in the beginning of the movie with Luke arguing that there's still some good left in Vader. And the first new added "NO" only comes about a second before he grabs the Emperor anyway. So no, I'm not seeing how this "NO" ruined the surprise here.

He also lost the concept of irony, if he ever had it: http://www.toplessrobot.com/2011/09/198 ... ge_luc.php

Man, I love this. No doubt lots of people will see the words of the 1988 Lucas (the "good" Lucas, before his FALL TO THE DARK SIDE) as use them as the voice of reason to condemn the current Lucas...if anything sounds weird and silly to me, it's the 1988 speech. Really, complaining about the addition of color to black and white films? Fears of gangsters and foreign governments stealing American cultural history? Not knowing the context of this speech, I don't know for sure what he's even speaking out against here. It all seems vague, and sensationalistic. Some slippery slope about old films being altered beyond recognition? Nevermind that he seems to be arguing against other people altering the artist's intentions, while he IS Star Wars's creator. Not the sole creator of course, but that's a level of distinction.

I do think that the original versions of the movies ought to be released (is it possible to fit them all on the same discs as the new versions, with options on which to see?), since there's still demand for them, and the original versions are useful for the historically curious.

[Darksider]

I'm sorry, but inserting that "NOOOOOO" into ROTJ is a complete fucking dealbreaker. That's supposed to be one of the most poignant and emotional scenes in the OT, something that goes a long way towards making ROTJ a great conclusion to the trilogy, and I just can't watch that revised scene without laughing. Even if I ever do decide to upgrade my DVD collection to blue ray, the Star Wars Trilogy won't be a part of it. Maybe if they offer the un-altered ones like they did with the last DVD release, but not without them.

[Aniron]

I'm sorry, but inserting that "NOOOOOO" into ROTJ is a complete fucking dealbreaker. That's supposed to be one of the most poignant and emotional scenes in the OT, something that goes a long way towards making ROTJ a great conclusion to the trilogy, and I just can't watch that revised scene without laughing. Even if I ever do decide to upgrade my DVD collection to blue ray, the Star Wars Trilogy won't be a part of it. Maybe if they offer the un-altered ones like they did with the last DVD release, but not without them.

The unaltered releases were so half-assed (non-anamorphic) that they would most likely suck on Blu-ray.

[Darth Tedious]

I checked around and nobody I know has watched the SW movies in 3 years; the average is 5 years for the original movies. Do people who planned on buying these BDs even plan on watching it? Once? Using it for screencaps?

I've watched all six films at least five times each this year. A lot of that is because of my daughter though, it probably would have been only once or twice otherwise.

The unaltered releases were so half-assed (non-anamorphic) that they would most likely suck on Blu-ray.

Technically speaking, they sucked on DVD, they were bad Laserdisc rips. But still worth watching if you must have the theatrical version. I give preference to them*.

It's just too bad you can't get the theatrical version of AotC, where dozens of Jedi had purple lightsabers and forced Mace Windu SLJ to have a hissyfit.


*My daughter still thinks Han shot first.

[Anguirus]

Nevermind that he seems to be arguing against other people altering the artist's intentions, while he IS Star Wars's creator. Not the sole creator of course, but that's a level of distinction.

The irony really comes at the end of his speech, not the beginning. He starts out arguing for artists' rights, then swings a left hook in the realm of "truly these works now belong to the public." It's really just lulzworthy. And I agree with you, there would basically be no issue if Lucas was working to preserve the OOT in addition to his tweaked versions.

I'm not sure we can do anything but agree to disagree on the impact "No. No!" has on the climax of RotJ. Suffice it to say, I don't see why you'd change a classic scene without a damn good reason in the first place. And yet, ultimately, I must clarify that my objection is not "They Changed It, SO Now It Sucks," but rather "They Changed It, AND Now It Sucks."

It's impossible to deny that The Star Wars Trilogy matters to people, so it matters when Lucas shifts his focus from trivialities into altering one of the scenes that's the reason people remember the thing in the first place. Audiences didn't get substantially dumber since 1983. Vader didn't need to narrate his emotional breakthrough then, and he certainly doesn't now.

[JME2]

I'm sorry, but inserting that "NOOOOOO" into ROTJ is a complete fucking dealbreaker. That's supposed to be one of the most poignant and emotional scenes in the OT, something that goes a long way towards making ROTJ a great conclusion to the trilogy, and I just can't watch that revised scene without laughing. Even if I ever do decide to upgrade my DVD collection to blue ray, the Star Wars Trilogy won't be a part of it. Maybe if they offer the un-altered ones like they did with the last DVD release, but not without them.

Which is why I wouldn't buy it either if I were upgrading to Blu Ray. This reduces the crux of the OT and the saga to a joke.

[Darth Tedious]

Audiences didn't get substantially dumber since 1983.

If only the majority of mainstream filmmakers realised this.

Perhaps Lucas hasn't forgotten the meaning of subtlety, but has instead listened to the idiots who complained that the prequels didn't spell everything out clearly enough...

[StarSword]

• Lightsaber fix = good
• krayt dragon fix = meh
• Vader yelling "Noooo!" = bad

Did I miss anything?



By the way, Jim Raynor, that toplessrobot.com link is dead.

[weemadando]

But wait! There's more.

[For clarity - I don't even give a shit, but find this amusing]





And I'm sure this has come up before and is probably a hoax story, but if not, I love it even more:

George Lucas speaks to Congress in '88 about preventing alterations to previously released movies.

[Aniron]

Blinking Ewoks is pretty cool.

[TC Pilot]

Obi-Wan yell: Ok, obviously it's not an animal call anymore. I like the echoey effect to make it more obviously unnatural. The problem is that non-echoey parts sound like Obi-Wan's stubbed his toe or just had a bucket of ice water dumped on him, not exactly very Alec Guiness-y. It seemed the music was drowned out a bit more too.

Vader "No!": I think the first "no" sounds fine, but is badly timed. He says "no" before he even finishes turning his head to look back at Luke. Just seems like a miscue now to me. The second one just sounds stupid.

Assuming that "dug in Jabba's Palace" is real, maybe it's just the quality of the video, but it looks like a midget Greedo at some angles. Just another useless addition to distract attention.

Honestly? Lucas can make whatever the hell changes he wants, but I don't see why it's so difficult to give people the option of seeing/having the originals too, since there's clearly an audience out there for them.

[Aniron]

Honestly? Lucas can make whatever the hell changes he wants, but I don't see why it's so difficult to give people the option of seeing/having the originals too, since there's clearly an audience out there for them.

Perhaps he doesn't want to and considers these revised versions to be superior. If I made changes to a film I made and I considered it superior, I wouldn't release the the original version either. I wouldn't care about how it alienates the hardest of hardcore fans, many who most likely wouldn't buy the originals anyway due to the mass hatred they throw at me. Something like the "Even if we buy the unaltered film, we'll still be giving him money to make changes!" line of thinking.

[JME2]

Blinking Ewoks is pretty cool.

Yeah, it's not too bad.

And I like the zoom into Jabba's palace entrance, too.

[TC Pilot]

Perhaps he doesn't want to

He did with the DVD release, where, funnily enough, he not only put in more changes, but re-edited several of the changes he made in the Special Editions.

[Aniron]

Perhaps he doesn't want to

He did with the DVD release, where, funnily enough, he not only put in more changes, but re-edited several of the changes he made in the Special Editions.

The original unaltered trilogy was released on DVD with changes? That's the first I've heard of it. I've only heard of the two-disc individual OT releases with the 2004 versions and the original versions, and the latter were put out without any regard for quality. He doesn't care about them anymore.

[TC Pilot]

The original unaltered trilogy was released on DVD with changes?

You're asking if the unaltered versions were released with alterations? No, they were unaltered. Hence being unaltered.

and the latter were put out without any regard for quality.

You mean as oppossed to the terribly done DVD versions with pink lightsabers?

Not really seeing what you're trying to get at here. Pointing out how little effort was put into including the originals sorta emphasizes how stupid it is not to include the originals.

[Anguirus]

Something like the "Even if we buy the unaltered film, we'll still be giving him money to make changes!" line of thinking.

You might be putting a little too much thought into this.

It's a lot more like "This is not a product I want to buy, ergo, I will not buy it," from what I've seen.

Keep in mind, Blu-Ray is not the standard like DVD was in 2004. It's still a luxury item. I don't own one. A gosh-darn perfect Star Wars Trilogy on Blu-Ray might have prodded me into buying one (if I had the money, which I don't). But that's not coming out, so I can keep waiting.

Even if I had a Blu-Ray player, the 2004 DVDs, you know, work in those.

People hold grudges due to Lucas' actions, not just because he's Lucas. It's not exactly difficult to get nerds to forgive someone in the entertainment industry. Unless you're Rick Berman or Dean Devlin, but still, who holds off buying Star Trek because they are concerned about Berman-royalties?

[Aniron]

You're asking if the unaltered versions were released with alterations? No, they were unaltered. Hence being unaltered.

I misunderstood your post. Apologies.

You mean as oppossed to the terribly done DVD versions with pink lightsabers?

Non-anamorphic is what I'm referring to.

Not really seeing what you're trying to get at here. Pointing out how little effort was put into including the originals sorta emphasizes how stupid it is not to include the originals.

My point is that putting little effort into the originals (read the above sentence) when it was released years ago likely means that little care would be taken making the transfer, because Lucas obviously cares little about the original visions.

The thing is that many people bitch about the changes but do not look at them in terms of the context of the PT: using the terrible Hayden Christensen in Jedi makes sense; putting in CGI animals in ANH makes sense given how Tatooine is shown in TPM; the "No" audio addition makes thematic sense given that Vader screams it when learning that Padme dies (I don't mind it). Now, there are changes that don't have anything to do with the PT, like the Ewoks blinking, but I think they look fine.

What would be preferable, if Lucas is dead set on not releasing the original films in their unaltered glory, is to use seamless branching to include the scenes from the 2004 release that he ended up changing here. All you would have to do is call the 2004 scenes when it's time for them to pop up. The Alien BD releases did just that, when they included the director's cuts.

Even if I had a Blu-Ray player, the 2004 DVDs, you know, work in those.

And they would look like shit, unless you buy into the "upconversion" nonsense.

[Anguirus]

^ Oh for god's sake. DVDs still look fine. Unless you're saying that commercial Blu-Ray players actually play DVDs worse than my ten year old DVD player, in which case, that's quite interesting.

[TC Pilot]

My point is that putting little effort into the originals (read the above sentence) when it was released years ago likely means that little care would be taken making the transfer, because Lucas obviously cares little about the original visions.

Ok, I really think you're exaggerating things. It's not as if we're talking about a movie remake or something. The movie is, what, 90% identical to how it was 30 years ago? They clearly are putting effort into transfering the originals because it's still the same movie. So why not go one step further and just transfer the remaining 10% that was actually edited out over the years?

As for your actual point, so what? If the choice is between an edited bluray edition bundled with a lazily-transfered original edition versus an edited bluray edition without any sort of original edition at all, are you seriously going to suggest the former isn't the better option, at least from a buyer perspective?

The thing is that many people bitch about the changes but do not look at them in terms of the context of the PT: using the terrible Hayden Christensen in Jedi makes sense; putting in CGI animals in ANH makes sense given how Tatooine is shown in TPM; the "No" audio addition makes thematic sense given that Vader screams it when learning that Padme dies (I don't mind it). Now, there are changes that don't have anything to do with the PT, like the Ewoks blinking, but I think they look fine.

Sure, there's a rationale behind the changes (perhaps stupid, frivolous, or silly reasons in some cases, mind you). I don't think I disputed that.

What would be preferable, if Lucas is dead set on not releasing the original films in their unaltered glory, is to use seamless branching to include the scenes from the 2004 release that he ended up changing here. All you would have to do is call the 2004 scenes when it's time for them to pop up. The Alien BD releases did just that, when they included the director's cuts.

Again, I don't see what's so difficult about it. Your hypothetical "I don't want to," doesn't strike me as particularly strong ground to stand on, particularly when you turn around and say "it's preferable to give people the choice between the 2004 and 2011 editions." Besides, people are paying for this stuff. God forbid they release a product that might attract more customers and satisfy more people.

Edit - actually, turns out the originals weren't released in the 2004 DVDs. They came out two years later with the 2006 "Limited Edition" release. Who wants odds they'll pull the same thing for this?

[Stofsk]

Edit - actually, turns out the originals weren't released in the 2004 DVDs. They came out two years later with the 2006 "Limited Edition" release. Who wants odds they'll pull the same thing for this?

I'll bet five thousand quatloos on it.